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Re: [Pali] Re: 4 kinds of faith

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  • Frank Kuan
    ... How about wise-faith ? It has a stronger intensity than confidence , is one less syllable, and hopefully the wise would distance it from blind-faith .
    Message 1 of 29 , Sep 25, 2004
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      > seeing (M 1:320,8, 401,23), also called wise faith
      > (avecca-p,pasaada)
      > (S 12.41.11/2:69).


      How about "wise-faith"? It has a stronger intensity
      than "confidence", is one less syllable, and hopefully
      the "wise" would distance it from "blind-faith".







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    • lighthisertim
      Gunnar G�llmo wrote: I would like some commentaries= from native English-speakers.As a native speaker of English, faith has a
      Message 2 of 29 , Sep 25, 2004
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        Gunnar G�llmo <gunnargallmo@y...> wrote: > I would like some commentaries=
        from native
        > English-speakers.

        As a native speaker of English, "faith" has a strong teleological--otherwor=
        ldly--hopeful --
        sense to it. Eg: "Keep the faith" is a current expression conveying another=
        's circumstance is
        gloomy and painful >>but<< by keeping one's eye on the future all will be j=
        ust fine. Its
        also widely known that due to the notion of not being able to prove God's e=
        xistence, many
        >>then<< posit that one's just got to have faith that god exists.

        Confidence is the opposite of faith. "Keep the confidence" is odd, not syno=
        nymic, not used
        colloquially. Confidence has an immediate, co-operative, and rational sense=
        to it. If some
        says "be confident", it conveys to that one should immediately trust what i=
        s at hand due to
        an understanding of it.

        NB: In the OED, "faith" has a theological section (below i.e. "pertaining t=
        o the word of God,
        i.e. the Bible") with a number of references.

        Confidence has no such section and thus no such references.


        hth,


        tl


        3. Theol. in various specific applications.    a. Belief in the truths =
        of religion; belief in the
        authenticity of divine revelation (whether viewed as contained in Holy Scri=
        pture or in the
        teaching of the Church), and acceptance of the revealed doctrines.    b=
        . That kind of faith
        (distinctively called saving or justifying faith) by which, in the teaching=
        of the N.T., a sinner
        is justified in the sight of God. This is very variously defined by theolog=
        ians (see quots.),
        but there is general agreement in regarding it as a conviction practically =
        operative on the
        character and will, and thus opposed to the mere intellectual assent to rel=
        igious truth
        (sometimes called speculative faith).    c. The spiritual apprehension =
        of divine truths, or of
        realities beyond the reach of sensible experience or logical proof. By Chri=
        stian writers
        often identified with the preceding; but not exclusively confined to Christ=
        ian use. Often
        viewed as the exercise of a special faculty in the soul of man, or as the r=
        esult of
        supernatural illumination.
         
      • lighthisertim
        ... Final -m-? con is an intensive prefix. hth, tl
        Message 3 of 29 , Sep 25, 2004
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          --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Piya Tan <libris@s...> wrote:
          > "Confidence" = com fidere (to trust)
          > It's interesting to see a subtle influence of sandhi rule with the final m of com
          > changing to con!
          > To confide in someone also means "to place or have faith" in someone (Merriam Webster
          > 3rd International)

          Final -m-?

          con is an intensive prefix.

          hth,

          tl
        • Piya Tan
          1.1 In a somewhat dated article (written over 40 years ago), The Valuation of Saddhaa in the Early Buddhist Texts (University of Ceylon Review 5:48), Mrs EFC
          Message 4 of 29 , Sep 25, 2004
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            1.1
            In a somewhat dated article (written over 40 years ago), "The Valuation of Saddhaa in
            the Early Buddhist Texts" (University of Ceylon Review 5:48), Mrs EFC Gyomroi-Ludowyk
            observes: "if in the using of 'faith' for saddhaa in translating, one restricts
            oneself to its meaning of 'confidence, trust, belief' no objection can be raised to
            it,' though she also observes that 'as time went on the bhakti cult paved the way for
            a new and higher valuation of saddhaa." (Quoted by Jayatilleke, "Early Buddhist
            Theory of Knowledge", 1963:384).

            1.2
            It helps to read Jayatilleke's "Early Buddhist Theory of Knowledge" 1963:382 ff on
            saddhaa.

            1.3
            Even better, read Gethin's "The Buddhist Path to Awakening" (2001:106-116). This is a
            monumental work on the heart of early Buddhism.
            Gethin, amongst other things, discusses the difference between "cognitive faith" and
            "affective faith". Clearly here, it would be very contrived and cumbersome to
            translate saddhaa as "confidence": "cognitive confidence" and "affective confidence??

            Subham astu

            Piya

            Gunnar Gllmo wrote:

            > --- Piya Tan <libris@...> skrev:
            > > I'm perfectly fine with "faith" as long as we
            > > understand its usage.
            >
            > I would like some commentaries from native
            > English-speakers. It seems to me that English is one
            > nuance richer in this case than many other languages,
            > with the three terms "confidence", "faith", and
            > "belief"; my own language, Swedish, has only
            > "frtroende" and "tro", and I think German has in the
            > same way just "Vertrauen" and "Glauben". (By the way:
            > the Greek word "pistis", which in the New Testament is
            > commonly translated as "faith" or perhaps even
            > "belief", is in Langenscheidts Griechisch-Deutsches
            > Wrterbuch given the first alternative "Vertrauen" -
            > i. e. "confidence"...
            >
            > Well, exactly (more or less) what is the difference
            > between "faith" and "confidence", as both are not
            > quite the same thing as "belief"?
            >
            > Gunnar
            >
            > =====
            > gunnargallmo@...
            >
            >
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            >
            >
            >
            >


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Piya Tan
            Dear Frank & friends, ... Thankfully, the mediaeval language you mentioned is only found in the pre-21st century translations. However, I remember noticing
            Message 5 of 29 , Sep 25, 2004
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              Dear Frank & friends,

              > On the other hand, so many perfectly good words are
              > so corrupted by Christianity and carry such negative
              > connotations that from a marketing standpoint, it's
              > just not helpful to promote buddhism if we have to
              > fight strongly ingrained notions. For example, when I
              > was reading some (PTS?) translations of pali suttas
              > many years ago, their use of "Lord" (the Buddha),
              > "thy", "thou", and other archaic terms made the pali
              > suttas sound like bible passsages. So much so, I
              > couldn't even finish reading the sutta, it filled me
              > with so much revulsion and disgust.

              Thankfully, the mediaeval language you mentioned is only found in the pre-21st
              century translations. However, I remember noticing some sightings in quotes. For
              academic reasons, such books are still reprinted (in India, for example) since they
              are of some academic standard even if their contents are outmoded and plainly wrong.

              > No matter which word we choose, "faith",
              > "confidence", "trust", I think the important thing is
              > to qualify and define it clearly once, and then any
              > future references within that text would refer to that
              > specific definition, just as in a discourse Buddha
              > would define "brahmin" once, and then afterwards it
              > was understood to refer to his re-definition rather
              > than the common definition.

              This sets me thinking about the Buddha's genius. In many places you can tease out the
              Buddha's progressive skillful means of communicating the Dharma to others: he leads
              others "from the known into the unknown"(Bhagavad,gitaa) in this manner

              (1) The Buddha uses words, terms and ideas familiar to his audience (inventing new
              vocabulary means you have to work twice as hard and yet not likely to hold your
              audience who are unfamiliar with the lingo).

              (2) The Buddha redefines his terms (for example, the Dhammapada), through analogies
              (eg fire). Many examples are discussed by KR Norman (1991c) in his paper:

              Theravda Buddhism and Brahmanical Hinduism: Brahmanical terms in a Buddhist guise. In
              The Buddhist Forum II seminar papers 1988-90, ed Tadeusz Korupski. London: Univ of
              London (SOAS), 1991:193-200.

              (3) The Buddha builds higher teachings on these groundwork of common terms (for
              example, beginning with faith, he introduces the 5 indriyas).

              Beyond what I have said, we should, for balance and expedience, be aware of the
              microscopes and telescopes that other religions (especially Christianity) are
              training on us (ie besides Vatican 2). Here are some examples:

              CHRISTIAN ADOPTION OF THE "TRIPLE GEM"?
              Henry C Karlson, "The Triple-Gem of Christian Refuge: Jesus, His Teaching, and His
              Church." Henry C Karlson
              Byzantine Catholic & theology masters student (USA).
              http://www.members.tripod.com/hckarlso/refuge2.htm

              MISSIOLOGY
              In the 16th century the Jesuit priest Matteo Ricci began the successful
              Christianizing of China, which would have been Christian today, but thanks to the
              jealousy of the Dominicans and the Franciscans and above all to the Popes papal bull
              [so aptly named!], his efforts failed!
              However, the Protestant John Nevius was so successful in China that the the
              Nevius method helped (and is still helping) to make Korea the leading Christian
              country in Asia today. Yet the Christians failed to evangelize or colonize Japan
              despite similar efforts. Elsewhere, the Christians are today trying to learn from the
              Buddhists (such as learning Buddhist meditation).
              If Buddhism is to flourish (nay survive) beyond its monastic shell (discounting
              much rot already setting there in: read Seneviratne's "The Work of Kings" for
              example), then it helps us to be aware of the reasons for the success of people like
              Nevius.

              Here are some studies showing where Christianity succeeded (like the Buddha did)
              when they adopted the "local idiom" and failed when they rejected it:
              (1) Andrew Eungi Kim. The rise and the fall of Protestantism in East Asia: A
              comparison of South Korea and Japan. International Center for Korean Studies (ICKS)
              Working paper 2003-2. Seoul: International Center for Korean Studies, Korea
              University, 2003.
              (2) Chuang Tsu-kung. Communicating the concept of sin in the Chinese context. Taiwan
              Mission July 1996. http://members.aol.com/taimission/sin_chin.htm
              (3) Peter Nepstead. Christianity in China: Matteo Ricci and the Jesuits. The
              Illuminated Lantern 6, Dec-Jan 2001.
              http://www.illuminatedlantern.com/cinema/features/christianity.html
              (4) John Carmody. A next step for Catholic theology. Theology Today 32,4 Jan 1976.
              http://theologytoday.ptsem.edu/jan1976/v32-4-articles4.htm

              I remember reading a news item about a Christian college on the US west coast
              dedicated to the study of Buddhism! Since they cannot convert us with the Bible, they
              hope to convert us with the Tripitaka. This is like the Western colonial invasion of
              the east. This is one of the important causes of the spread and rise of Buddhism in
              the West. Let's pray for their success, folks [tongue pushing against palate].

              Big brother is watching us, gentlemen.
              Let's get back to out Sutta study and meditation.

              On the other hand, we might be heading back to the brave new world of the
              brahmana/sramana scenario Buddha's time where religions and systems freely share
              ideas and debates, and what matters most is the spiritual liberation that is directly
              experienced.

              Those who have seen the light, speak the same language.

              (I think that's why the church in once Perth invited Ajahn Brahm to give the key
              address during their Eucharist, their most sacred ritual. Also some years back, the
              Catholic community here invited Ajahn Santikaro, a pupil of Buddhadasa, to speak on
              and conduct Buddhist meditation, in Damien Hall here in Singapore. I wonder the day
              will come when the Catholics meditate more than the Buddhists and claim that they
              invented meditation! After all they have appropriated the tonsure, rosary, relics,
              chanting, church architecture, incense, etc from elsewhere.)

              DISJOINTED THOUGHTS (AH! THE JOYFUL PEACE)
              "No images of me " the Buddha says (somewhere).
              You Greek Buddhists hear him not
              And you made the Buddha after Apollo, with halo and pleats.
              They shot the Bamiyam Buddha down to pieces
              Thank you Talibans for finally bringing the Buddha's message to the world.
              But we still burn relics of him who is burned cool millenias past
              And we bow to Maara
              (But unlike Upagupta).
              May you have all the money and power you desire, nayakas,
              Surfeiting, may your eye then turn to the Buddha light.
              The joy of the Suttas sits beside dhyana's bliss:
              You could almost touch the Buddha through this screen,
              brothers and sisters.

              Let us close our eyes, and see more.
              Who sees wins.

              Thanks for the helpful frankness, Frank.

              Sukhi

              Piya
            • Gunnar Gällmo
              ... Let s hope they did that. What they certainly did, however, was to spread that Buddha image around the world more than ever before - I mean, how many
              Message 6 of 29 , Sep 26, 2004
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                --- Piya Tan <libris@...> skrev:

                > They shot the Bamiyam Buddha down to pieces
                > Thank you Talibans for finally bringing the Buddha's
                > message to the world.

                Let's hope they did that. What they certainly did,
                however, was to spread that Buddha image around the
                world more than ever before - I mean, how many people
                have seen it with their proper eyes, and how many have
                seen it on photos?

                The Taliban were not very good psychologists, it
                seems.

                I even read that in central Brazil, some people are
                going to build the Bamiyan Buddha up again - in double
                scale.

                Gunnar


                =====
                gunnargallmo@...
              • Piya Tan
                Dear Bhante & Pali friends, Bhante Pesala has been generous is directing us to a free download of the Uttama Purisa Dipani, for which you have to buy
                Message 7 of 29 , Sep 27, 2004
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                  Dear Bhante & Pali friends,

                  Bhante Pesala has been generous is directing us to a free download of the Uttama
                  Purisa Dipani, for which you have to buy elsewhere. I think the URL below is the only
                  one from which you can download it.

                  It's a PDF file so it is easy to read. However, my download of the Anapanasati Dipani
                  (Ledi Sayadaw) needs MyTimes which for some reason are not embedded with the PDF. So
                  I get cute little dots instead of Pali. It's like an exam paper where you have to
                  fill in the Pali.

                  Sukhi

                  Piya

                  Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:

                  > I found this passage in Venerable Ledi Sayaadaw's Uttamapurisa Diipanii,
                  > which might be of some help.
                  >
                  > There are four classes of confidence: 1) Pasaada Saddhaa, 2) Okappana
                  > Saddhaa, 3) AAgama Saddhaa, and 4) Adhigama Saddhaa.
                  >
                  > 1. Pasaada Saddhaa is confidence in the Three Gems because the Buddha, the
                  > Dhamma, and the Sa"gha are recognized as being worthy of reverence. It is
                  > based upon a superficial high regard for the Three Gems and not on a deep
                  > conviction, so it is not stable.
                  >
                  > 2. Okappana Saddhaa is confidence inspired by the noble attributes of the
                  > Buddha, the Dhamma, and the Sa"gha. It comes out of conviction and it
                  > endures for a lifetime, but after one's death it vanishes from one's
                  > consciousness.
                  >
                  > 3. AAgama Saddhaa is the type of confidence acquired by bodhisattas. After
                  > receiving recognition and assurance of future Buddhahood, a bodhisatta has
                  > unwavering confidence in the Three Gems, which implies an abiding
                  > confidence in the merit of good deeds.
                  >
                  > 4. Adhigama Saddhaa is the confidence nurtured by the Noble One who,
                  > having won the fruits of path knowledge, has realized nibbaana. Of these
                  > four classes, even the first is a rare gift. Many who are born in
                  > Buddhist countries do not have even this kind of confidence. One who has
                  > the second kind of confidence can revere a bhikkhu whose conduct is far
                  > from being correct, knowing the nine attributes of the Ariya Sa"gha to
                  > which a bhikkhu belongs. One endowed with AAgama Saddhaa cannot refrain
                  > from doing some sort of perfect merit even for a day.
                  >
                  > The Noble Ones, who have won attainments in the path knowledges, are
                  > endowed with a confidence that is a great attainment (adhigama). They have
                  > an abiding confidence in the Three Gems, the upkeep of the five precepts,
                  > the performance of the ten kinds of meritorious deeds, and the practice of
                  > the thirty-seven factors of enlightenment.
                  >
                  > From:
                  >
                  > http://www.aimwell.org/assets/A%20Manual%20of%20the%20Excellent%20Man.pdf
                  >
                  >
                  > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
                  > [Homepage] http://www.tipitaka.net
                  > [Send Message] pali@yahoogroups.com
                  > Paaliga.na - a community for Pali students
                  > Yahoo! Groups members can set their delivery options to daily digest or web only.
                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                • Bhikkhu Pesala
                  From where did you download the Anapanasati Dipani? Not from my site, I am sure, though some of my PDF s may not have the right font embedded. In fact, that
                  Message 8 of 29 , Sep 27, 2004
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                    From where did you download the Anapanasati Dipani? Not from my site, I am
                    sure, though some of my PDF's may not have the right font embedded. In
                    fact, that was the reason that I recently updated the Uttamapurisa Dipani.

                    It is easy to do. Contact the webmaster and let them know. If they have
                    the MyTimes font installed on their PC, they won't be aware that other
                    people have problems. You could also install the MyTimes font, if you can
                    find it. That will solve the problem.
                  • Bhikkhu Pesala
                    At the time that the Bamiyan Buddha was being destroyed, I was residing at the Ambedkar Buddhist Vihara in Southall, West London. My supporters organised a
                    Message 9 of 29 , Sep 27, 2004
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                      At the time that the Bamiyan Buddha was being destroyed, I was residing at
                      the Ambedkar Buddhist Vihara in Southall, West London. My supporters
                      organised a demonstration outside the Afghanistan embassy. I declined to
                      go. I told them, "No one can destroy Buddhism in this way. Only Buddhists
                      can destroy Buddhism by not studying it and practising it properly." I
                      don't think they understood me very well.
                    • VEN. ANAND L.
                      It is needed atleast for Indians to study the dhamma and follow it in daily life so that can be tradition. And the traditions die very hard. In India Buddhism
                      Message 10 of 29 , Sep 27, 2004
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                        It is needed atleast for Indians to study the dhamma and follow it in daily life so that can be tradition. And the traditions die very hard. In India Buddhism is being spead , but in very inpured way...
                        The Poeple in India are studying Buddhism but they find it difficult to put in the practice..and India need well trained monks like Bhikkhu Pesala....he may also feel the difference in the practice of Indian Buddhist no matter whether they are residence of UK , Canada/US or in India.
                        This was pretty appropriate reply to the people.

                        Bhikkhu Pesala <pesala@...> wrote:
                        At the time that the Bamiyan Buddha was being destroyed, I was residing at
                        the Ambedkar Buddhist Vihara in Southall, West London. My supporters
                        organised a demonstration outside the Afghanistan embassy. I declined to
                        go. I told them, "No one can destroy Buddhism in this way. Only Buddhists
                        can destroy Buddhism by not studying it and practising it properly." I
                        don't think they understood me very well.



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                      • Derek
                        Hi, All, I mentioned a few weeks ago that I wanted to know if there was an emerging standard font for Romanized Pali. The answer definitely seems to be no! My
                        Message 11 of 29 , Sep 27, 2004
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                          Hi, All,

                          I mentioned a few weeks ago that I wanted to know if there was an
                          emerging standard font for Romanized Pali. The answer definitely
                          seems to be no! My context was that I wanted to make an HTML page
                          that would be accessible to as many people as possible, and
                          preferably many of them would not have to download any special font.

                          I don't think I ever mentioned the solution I adopted in the end. It
                          was this:

                          - use Unicode, not a proprietary encoding system

                          - Arial Unicode MS is good, but only people who have bought
                          Microsoft Office will have it

                          - Gentium and TITUS Cyberbit Basic are both good, and as far as I
                          know are freely available, at least for non-commercial use. Also, I
                          believe there is a MAC version of Gentium.

                          - Tahoma comes with Microsoft Windows XP and has all the characters
                          we need. However, older version of Tahoma, which many people will
                          still have on their computers, do *not* have all the required
                          characters. Therefore I put Tahoma *last* on my list, so that people
                          could solve the problem of missing characters if necessary by
                          downloading one of the free fonts mentioned above.

                          To get this to work, my page about Pali includes the HTML:

                          FONT face="Arial Unicode MS, Gentium, TITUS Cyberbit Basic, Tahoma"

                          Hopefully this allows me to reach as wide an audience as possible,
                          and in many cases there will be no need to download a special font
                          to view the page.

                          Derek.
                        • Dimitry A. Ivakhnenko (������� ��������
                          Hi Derek, D FONT face= Arial Unicode MS, Gentium, TITUS Cyberbit Basic, Tahoma I will use:
                          Message 12 of 29 , Sep 27, 2004
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                            Hi Derek,

                            D> FONT face="Arial Unicode MS, Gentium, TITUS Cyberbit Basic, Tahoma"

                            I will use:

                            <BODY STYLE="font-family: CN-Times, VU Times, Thryomanes, sanvijjo, Code2000, Arial Unicode MS, TITUS Cyberbit Basic, Tahoma">

                            Dimitry
                          • Gunnar Gällmo
                            ... Perhaps iconolatrics and iconoclastics alike tend to confuse the picture with the pictured. What happened in Bamiyan was a tragedy to archeology, and
                            Message 13 of 29 , Sep 27, 2004
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                              --- Bhikkhu Pesala <pesala@...> skrev:
                              > At the time that the Bamiyan Buddha was being
                              > destroyed, I was residing at
                              > the Ambedkar Buddhist Vihara in Southall, West
                              > London. My supporters
                              > organised a demonstration outside the Afghanistan
                              > embassy. I declined to
                              > go. I told them, "No one can destroy Buddhism in
                              > this way. Only Buddhists
                              > can destroy Buddhism by not studying it and
                              > practising it properly." I
                              > don't think they understood me very well.

                              Perhaps iconolatrics and iconoclastics alike tend to
                              confuse the picture with the pictured.

                              What happened in Bamiyan was a tragedy to archeology,
                              and perhaps to Islam, but not to Buddhism; it just
                              drove home the point of anicca.

                              And when some people criticized mass media for being
                              more interested in dead statues than in living,
                              suffering people, I think the Buddha would have been
                              the first to agree.

                              Gunnar

                              =====
                              gunnargallmo@...
                            • Piya Tan
                              The Anapanasati Dipani is from some other website, not yours: there are a few I think, I have to check again for a proper download with the right fonts.
                              Message 14 of 29 , Sep 27, 2004
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                                The Anapanasati Dipani is from some other website, not yours: there are a few I
                                think, I have to check again for a proper download with the right fonts.

                                Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:

                                > >From where did you download the Anapanasati Dipani? Not from my site, I am
                                > sure, though some of my PDF's may not have the right font embedded. In
                                > fact, that was the reason that I recently updated the Uttamapurisa Dipani.
                                >
                                > It is easy to do. Contact the webmaster and let them know. If they have
                                > the MyTimes font installed on their PC, they won't be aware that other
                                > people have problems. You could also install the MyTimes font, if you can
                                > find it. That will solve the problem.
                                >
                                >
                                > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
                                > [Homepage] http://www.tipitaka.net
                                > [Send Message] pali@yahoogroups.com
                                > Paaliga.na - a community for Pali students
                                > Yahoo! Groups members can set their delivery options to daily digest or web only.
                                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                              • Piya Tan
                                Sadhu! Sadhu! Sadhu!
                                Message 15 of 29 , Sep 27, 2004
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                                  Sadhu! Sadhu! Sadhu!

                                  Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:

                                  > At the time that the Bamiyan Buddha was being destroyed, I was residing at
                                  > the Ambedkar Buddhist Vihara in Southall, West London. My supporters
                                  > organised a demonstration outside the Afghanistan embassy. I declined to
                                  > go. I told them, "No one can destroy Buddhism in this way. Only Buddhists
                                  > can destroy Buddhism by not studying it and practising it properly." I
                                  > don't think they understood me very well.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
                                  > [Homepage] http://www.tipitaka.net
                                  > [Send Message] pali@yahoogroups.com
                                  > Paaliga.na - a community for Pali students
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                                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                • Piya Tan
                                  Dear Bhante Pesala & friends, Bhante Pesala has done a great job of editing Ledi Sayadaw s Uttamapurisa Dipani. As many of us know, he (and other Burmese
                                  Message 16 of 29 , Sep 28, 2004
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                                    Dear Bhante Pesala & friends,

                                    Bhante Pesala has done a great job of editing Ledi Sayadaw's Uttamapurisa Dipani. As
                                    many of us know, he (and other Burmese teachers) have written many useful tracts and
                                    guides giving very insightful explanations of Pali teachings. I have myself most of
                                    Sayadaw's books (like the Manuals of Buddhism) myself and value them.

                                    Burmese devotees have put in much effort in translating such works. However, in most
                                    places, I find that the English could be more modern and clearer. This is where
                                    Bhikkhu Pesala has done us a great favour in his translation of Uttamapurisa
                                    Diipanii.

                                    PROPOSALS

                                    I would like to propose some suggestions so that such books can better serve the
                                    intended audience, and also useful to others.

                                    (1) Please give references for all citations. For example, Ledi Sayadaw's notes on
                                    the 4 kinds of faith (confidence) are from various Commentaries (DA 2:529; MA 3:325 f
                                    = AA 3:257). Without such references, one might attribute this to Sayadaw instead of
                                    Buddhaghosa. This is a tedious but most compassionate task. Perhaps one could do this
                                    in a new edition, and in stages, and people her could help identify such passages.

                                    (2) Please add the imprint page: place of publication, publisher, edition year(s),
                                    etc. For the Uttamapurisa Dipani tr, I had to cull this from the Preface, and make
                                    this entry in my biblio to my Pubba,ko.t.thaka Sutta translation:

                                    Ledi Sayadaw
                                    1998 A Manual of the Excellent Man: Uttamapurisa Diipanii [1900]. Tr U Tin Oo
                                    (Myaung), 2nd ed 1969. Ed Bhikkhu Pesala, 1998. Free download from:
                                    http://www.aimwell.org/assets/A%20Manual%20of%20the%20Excellent%20Man.pdf

                                    [Please check if the years are correct.]

                                    With such info, the librarians would be very grateful when they assess and classify
                                    the book. Then we seekers would be able to locate the book easily. And thereby
                                    benefit its wisdom. (The local libraries here have a good stock on Buddhist books
                                    both in reference and lending sections, and even have 2 sets of the latest
                                    Encyclopedia of Buddhism ed Buswell.)

                                    (3) Please do not omit any Pali citations made by Sayadaw.

                                    The kind of people who would benefit most from reading such books as the Sayadaw's
                                    include scholars, researchers and scholars, and impossible pedants like myself.
                                    Scholars usually make use of such materials but dare not quote them because of the
                                    stilted English, lack of references and poor editing (leaving only the pious
                                    sectarians to swear by them). But we need to re-package these valuable teachings so
                                    that they reach out to those who can best make use of them: the scholars. After all,
                                    these are written teachings (not oral tradition) and as such should receive all the
                                    honours of editing and presentation commensurate to sacred texts. Otherwise, we are
                                    likely to have only the Buddhism of the academic scholars in printed form to swear
                                    by, I mean, to quote.

                                    Many of the generous sponsors who donate to the printing of such books do not
                                    actually read them. The motivation is that it is meritorious to give (I know some,
                                    like the early Mahayanists, who actually worship such texts!), and that giving
                                    towards the printing of sacred books would spread the religion. Thanks to such
                                    generosity we do get such valuable works free of charge: this is one great thing
                                    about being a bookish Buddhist in the east.

                                    Having said that, I appeal that we do not omit any passages (quotes etc, esp
                                    formidable ones) in translations. Formidable Pali quotes are what would turn out
                                    valuable to us: please give us s'attha.m sa,vya~njana.m kevala,paripu.n.na.m.

                                    However, Pesala's abridged translation of Miln is useful in the sense that the
                                    original text can be difficult reading for some.

                                    I invoke the memory of the great arhat Mahaa Kaccaana that he inspires us in this
                                    great adventure of Sutta study and teaching, and self-awakening.

                                    Subham atthu.

                                    Piya Tan

                                    --------------


                                    Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:

                                    > >From where did you download the Anapanasati Dipani? Not from my site, I am
                                    > sure, though some of my PDF's may not have the right font embedded. In
                                    > fact, that was the reason that I recently updated the Uttamapurisa Dipani.
                                    >
                                    > It is easy to do. Contact the webmaster and let them know. If they have
                                    > the MyTimes font installed on their PC, they won't be aware that other
                                    > people have problems. You could also install the MyTimes font, if you can
                                    > find it. That will solve the problem.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
                                    > [Homepage] http://www.tipitaka.net
                                    > [Send Message] pali@yahoogroups.com
                                    > Paaliga.na - a community for Pali students
                                    > Yahoo! Groups members can set their delivery options to daily digest or web only.
                                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >


                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • Piya Tan
                                    The Anapada Diipanii (as it is titled) is available from here, www.midamericadharma.org/gangessangha/wh43132.pdf You may notice the problem with MyTimes.
                                    Message 17 of 29 , Sep 29, 2004
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                                      The Anapada Diipanii (as it is titled) is available from here,

                                      www.midamericadharma.org/gangessangha/wh43132.pdf

                                      You may notice the problem with MyTimes.

                                      ------------

                                      Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:

                                      > >From where did you download the Anapanasati Dipani? Not from my site, I am
                                      > sure, though some of my PDF's may not have the right font embedded. In
                                      > fact, that was the reason that I recently updated the Uttamapurisa Dipani.
                                      >
                                      > It is easy to do. Contact the webmaster and let them know. If they have
                                      > the MyTimes font installed on their PC, they won't be aware that other
                                      > people have problems. You could also install the MyTimes font, if you can
                                      > find it. That will solve the problem.
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
                                      > [Homepage] http://www.tipitaka.net
                                      > [Send Message] pali@yahoogroups.com
                                      > Paaliga.na - a community for Pali students
                                      > Yahoo! Groups members can set their delivery options to daily digest or web only.
                                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
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