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Re: [Pali] ariyasaccam

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  • mangesh dahiwale
    Dear Zeb, Hi, Actually there are various types of the Dukkha. Broadly,Suffering which is suffering like tootheache etc,secondly,suffering due to impermance and
    Message 1 of 3 , Oct 22, 2001
      Dear Zeb,
      Hi,
      Actually there are various types of the Dukkha.
      Broadly,Suffering which is suffering like tootheache
      etc,secondly,suffering due to impermance and
      thirdly,suffering due to conditioned existence.
      "pi"- shows emphasis.
      With Metta,
      mangesh

      --- zeb1001@... wrote:
      > Idam kho pana, bhikkhave, dukkham ariyasaccam -
      > jatipi dukkha,
      > jarapi dukkha,byadhipi dukkho, maranampi dukkham,
      > appiyehi sampayogo
      > dukkho, piyehi vippayogo dukkho, yampiccham na
      > labhati tampi dukkham
      > samkhittena pancupadanakkhandha dukkha.
      >
      > Dhammacakkappavattanasuttam from the VRI cd (chattha
      > Sangayana
      > version 3)
      >
      > As a complete beginner in Pali i have a few
      > questions perhapes
      > someone could answer.(I havnt put the diacritic info
      > in,please let me
      > know if it is needed for the answers)
      >
      > 1.>jarapi dukkha,byadhipi dukkho, maranampi dukkham<
      > Why is there 3
      > forms of Dukkha here. I have a little knowledge of
      > declension's, but
      > dont understand why the 3 forms here.
      >
      > 2.>byadhi< I presume this is Pali and thought
      > "vyadhi" was sanskrit
      > but the couple of Pali dictionaries i have only have
      > "vyadhi"
      >
      > 3.>jatipi,jarapi,byadhipi,maranampi<please explane
      > the "pi"
      >
      > 4.The above sutta doesn't seem to have ,
      > >sokaparidevadukkhadomanassupayasapi dukkha,< in
      > it,although the 2
      > english translations at accesstoinsight seem to have
      > the passage
      > translated in them? Have they just added it from the
      > Nibbedhikasuttam,
      > or is it missing from the VRI cd?
      >
      > Metta zeb
      >
      >
      >


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    • Kumaara Bhikkhu
      ... That s because what they describe (jaraa, byaadhi, and mara.na) are words of different genders: jaraa - fem. byaadhi - mas. mara.na - nt. As a general rule
      Message 2 of 3 , Oct 22, 2001
        At 10:57 PM 21-10-01 +0000, zeb1001@... wrote:
        >Idam kho pana, bhikkhave, dukkham ariyasaccam - jatipi dukkha,
        >jarapi dukkha,byadhipi dukkho, maranampi dukkham, appiyehi sampayogo
        >dukkho, piyehi vippayogo dukkho, yampiccham na labhati tampi dukkham
        >samkhittena pancupadanakkhandha dukkha.
        >
        >Dhammacakkappavattanasuttam from the VRI cd (chattha Sangayana
        >version 3)
        >
        >As a complete beginner in Pali i have a few questions perhapes
        >someone could answer.(I havnt put the diacritic info in,please let me
        >know if it is needed for the answers)
        >
        >1.>jarapi dukkha,byadhipi dukkho, maranampi dukkham< Why is there 3
        >forms of Dukkha here. I have a little knowledge of declension's, but
        >dont understand why the 3 forms here.

        That's because what they describe (jaraa, byaadhi, and mara.na) are words of different genders:
        jaraa - fem.
        byaadhi - mas.
        mara.na - nt.

        As a general rule of thumb, the adjective must agree with the noun in gender, number and case.


        >2.>byadhi< I presume this is Pali and thought "vyadhi" was sanskrit
        >but the couple of Pali dictionaries i have only have "vyadhi"

        In my experience, "bya" and "vya" seem to be interchangeable in Pali. E.g. you may have heard of Vyagghapajja Sutta and Byagghapajja Sutta. Both refer to the same sutta in Anguttara Nikaaya.


        >3.>jatipi,jarapi,byadhipi,maranampi<please explane the "pi"

        As you may have learnt from the dictionaries, it carries the idea of "too", "also", "even", etc.

        In the quoted text, it can be translated as:
        birth too is dukkha, old age too is dukkha, illness too is dukkha....

        It's a bit odd to put "too" in the first of such a series, but it sounds just fine in Pali and other Asian languages that I know.


        >4.The above sutta doesn't seem to have ,
        >>sokaparidevadukkhadomanassupayasapi dukkha,< in it,although the 2
        >english translations at accesstoinsight seem to have the passage
        >translated in them? Have they just added it from the Nibbedhikasuttam,
        >or is it missing from the VRI cd?

        I did some researching on this.

        Versions where it is included:
        PTS, Samyutta Nikaaya
        ATI, Samyutta Nikaaya, Mahavagga, Ven. Thanissaro Bhikkhu trans.
        One Thai tradition Pali chanting book (Note: Many current chantings are notorious for making additions, sometimes irrationally, and therefore not reliable.)

        Versions where it is omitted:
        Wisdom Pubs, Samyutta Nikaaya, Mahavagga, Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi trans.
        PTS, Vinaya Pitaka, Mahavagga
        Mahamakut (Thai), Samyutta Nikaaya, Mahavagga
        Burmese Chattha Sangayana, Vinaya Pitaka, Mahavagga
        Burmese Chattha Sangayana, Samyutta Nikaaya, Mahavagga

        In Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi's end note, he says:
        I follow Be and Se here. Ee includes "sokaparidevadukkhadomanass' upaayaasaa" which is found elsewhere in formal definition of the first truth but lacking on most versions of the first sermon.

        Note:
        Be = Burmese Chattha Sangayana script
        Se = Sinhala script
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