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Re: [Pali] pali is so hard!

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  • Roberta Koepfer
    Dear June, You might find that the following text is a less overwhelming introduction to the study of Pali than Warder s (I did): Pali Primer By Lily de
    Message 1 of 18 , Jul 31, 2004
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      Dear June,

      You might find that the following text is a less
      overwhelming introduction to the study of Pali than
      Warder's (I did):
      Pali Primer
      By Lily de Silva,M.A., Ph.D
      Published By: Vipassanna Research Institute, 1994,
      1995
      ISBN: 81-7414-014-X

      IWhen you get the desire to actually read some texts,
      however, you can go to:
      A New Course in Reading Pali - Entering the Words of
      the Buddha
      By: James W. Gair & W.S. Karunatillake
      Published By: Motilal Banarsidass, Delhi, 1998, 2001
      ISBN: 81-208-1440-1 (Cloth)
      ISBN: 81-208-1441-x (Paper)

      For Quick "Look-ups" of Spcific Terms:
      A Pali-English Glossary of Buddhist Technical Terms
      Compiled by Bhikkhu Nanamoli
      Published By: Buddhist Publication Society, 1994, 1998
      ISBN: 955-24-0086-4

      Although I don't remember exactly, I probably used
      Amazon.com to help me find and purchase these books.

      Take heart - It does get easier as knowledge builds on
      knowledge.

      Metta,

      Roberta



      --- junet9876 <junet9876@...> wrote:

      > hi,
      >
      > is there anyone who still considers themselves a
      > beginner?
      >
      > how do you get over the steep learning curve?
      >
      > is the "introduction to pali" by warder really an
      > introduction?
      >
      > i have looked at other books, but its so difficult!
      >
      > any tips?
      >
      > thanks,
      > june
      >
      >
      >




      __________________________________
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    • nina van gorkom
      Dear Yong Peng and Rett, ... Nina: Rett, if you have time could you give us just little by little some difficult to recognize forms? Always most useful! Nina.
      Message 2 of 18 , Jul 31, 2004
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        Dear Yong Peng and Rett,
        op 31-07-2004 13:19 schreef Ong Yong Peng op ypong001@...:
        > Rett, can you tell us more about the index in Achim Fahs' Grammatik
        > des Pali? Thanks.
        Nina: Rett, if you have time could you give us just little by little some
        difficult to recognize forms? Always most useful!
        Nina.
      • junet9876
        Hi, Thank you to everyone who replied! June
        Message 3 of 18 , Aug 1, 2004
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          Hi,

          Thank you to everyone who replied!

          June



          --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Roberta Koepfer <roberta_koepfer@y...>
          wrote:
          > Dear June,
          >
          > You might find that the following text is a less
          > overwhelming introduction to the study of Pali than
          > Warder's (I did):
          > Pali Primer
          > By Lily de Silva,M.A., Ph.D
          > Published By: Vipassanna Research Institute, 1994,
          > 1995
          > ISBN: 81-7414-014-X
          >
          > IWhen you get the desire to actually read some texts,
          > however, you can go to:
          > A New Course in Reading Pali - Entering the Words of
          > the Buddha
          > By: James W. Gair & W.S. Karunatillake
          > Published By: Motilal Banarsidass, Delhi, 1998, 2001
          > ISBN: 81-208-1440-1 (Cloth)
          > ISBN: 81-208-1441-x (Paper)
          >
          > For Quick "Look-ups" of Spcific Terms:
          > A Pali-English Glossary of Buddhist Technical Terms
          > Compiled by Bhikkhu Nanamoli
          > Published By: Buddhist Publication Society, 1994, 1998
          > ISBN: 955-24-0086-4
          >
          > Although I don't remember exactly, I probably used
          > Amazon.com to help me find and purchase these books.
          >
          > Take heart - It does get easier as knowledge builds on
          > knowledge.
          >
          > Metta,
          >
          > Roberta
          >
          >
          >
          > --- junet9876 <junet9876@y...> wrote:
          >
          > > hi,
          > >
          > > is there anyone who still considers themselves a
          > > beginner?
          > >
          > > how do you get over the steep learning curve?
          > >
          > > is the "introduction to pali" by warder really an
          > > introduction?
          > >
          > > i have looked at other books, but its so difficult!
          > >
          > > any tips?
          > >
          > > thanks,
          > > june
          > >
          > >
          > >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > __________________________________
          > Do you Yahoo!?
          > Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers!
          > http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
        • Stephen Hodge
          ... I have a Pali Dictionary by the veteran Japanese Pali scholar, Kogen Mizuno, which contains a useful alphabetical list of all Pali grammatical suffixes and
          Message 4 of 18 , Aug 1, 2004
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            > > Rett, can you tell us more about the index in Achim Fahs' Grammatik
            > > des Pali? Thanks.
            > Nina: Rett, if you have time could you give us just little by little some
            > difficult to recognize forms? Always most useful!

            I have a Pali Dictionary by the veteran Japanese Pali scholar, Kogen Mizuno,
            which contains a useful alphabetical list of all Pali grammatical suffixes
            and what they are -- a knowledge of Japanese is not essential. As it runs
            to about 11 pages, it would be a lot for me to type out but I could scan the
            pages for people. Is there enough storage space at Yahoo for about 5 jpegs
            ?

            Best wishes,
            Stephen Hodge
          • rett
            ... Hi, Sure, I d be happy to. The index of difficult-to-recognize forms in Fahs contains approximately 2500 entries and is keyed to a list of Pali roots with
            Message 5 of 18 , Aug 1, 2004
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              >Rett, can you tell us more about the index in Achim Fahs' Grammatik
              >des Pali? Thanks.

              Hi,

              Sure, I'd be happy to. The index of difficult-to-recognize forms in
              Fahs contains approximately 2500 entries and is keyed to a list of
              Pali roots with derived forms. The root list has 315 entries and
              appears to me to be very comprehensive. It seems to be based on forms
              culled from the literature rather than theoretically possible forms
              (but I'm not 100% sure about that). The root list and index together
              comprise 188 pages, or a bit over 2/5 of the whole book.

              An example of how to use it: the form 'dicchare', which isn't the
              sort of thing I'd recognize right off the bat, is referred back to
              the table for the root daa (give). There it's listed as the
              desiderative 3rd person plural medium. Without that kind of help I
              probably would have given up Pali in a fit of hair-tearing despair.

              In Geiger's word-index you can find an entry: "dicchati, -re" with
              references to sections, and the advice "see daa".

              If you had guessed the root is 'daa' and looked in the PED, the
              article mentions desideratives in 'dicchati, diti, etc'. From there
              one would just have to remember the rare use of mediums in Pali.

              hope this is of interest,

              /Rett
            • Lothar Schenk
              ... Is it copyrighted? (Probably so.) ... If it is copyrighted, then you are not allowed to do so by law. And, of course, it would be a breach of the precept
              Message 6 of 18 , Aug 2, 2004
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                Stephen Hodge wrote:

                > I have a Pali Dictionary by the veteran Japanese Pali scholar, Kogen
                > Mizuno,

                Is it copyrighted? (Probably so.)

                > which contains a useful alphabetical list of all Pali grammatical
                > suffixes and what they are -- a knowledge of Japanese is not essential.
                > As it runs to about 11 pages, it would be a lot for me to type out but I
                > could scan the pages for people.

                If it is copyrighted, then you are not allowed to do so by law.

                And, of course, it would be a breach of the precept against taking what is not
                given.

                Lothar
              • Ong Yong Peng
                Dear Steven, Lothar and friends, if the 11 pages make up less than 10% of the book, and it is distributed in a restricted manner for academic use, it is not
                Message 7 of 18 , Aug 2, 2004
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                  Dear Steven, Lothar and friends,

                  if the 11 pages make up less than 10% of the book, and it is
                  distributed in a restricted manner for academic use, it is not
                  against the copyright law. I hope I am right about that.

                  The Files section is almost full, and need some housekeeping.
                  However, if the files are in JPEG or GIF, you can place them under
                  the Photos section.


                  metta,
                  Yong Peng

                  --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Stephen Hodge wrote:
                  I have a Pali Dictionary by the veteran Japanese Pali scholar, Kogen
                  Mizuno, which contains a useful alphabetical list of all Pali
                  grammatical suffixes and what they are -- a knowledge of Japanese is
                  not essential. As it runs to about 11 pages, it would be a lot for
                  me to type out but I could scan the pages for people. Is there
                  enough storage space at Yahoo for about 5 jpegs ?
                • Ong Yong Peng
                  Dear Rett and friends, thanks for that. I am happy that you got such a wonderful book. metta, Yong Peng ... The index of difficult-to-recognize forms in Fahs
                  Message 8 of 18 , Aug 2, 2004
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                    Dear Rett and friends,

                    thanks for that. I am happy that you got such a wonderful book.


                    metta,
                    Yong Peng

                    --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, rett wrote:
                    The index of difficult-to-recognize forms in Fahs contains
                    approximately 2500 entries and is keyed to a list of Pali roots with
                    derived forms. The root list has 315 entries and appears to me to be
                    very comprehensive. It seems to be based on forms culled from the
                    literature rather than theoretically possible forms (but I'm not 100%
                    sure about that). The root list and index together comprise 188
                    pages, or a bit over 2/5 of the whole book.
                  • rett
                    ... As Ong pointed out, there are fair use laws for copying works for personal study, however I believe the laws are different from country to country. I m
                    Message 9 of 18 , Aug 2, 2004
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                      >Stephen Hodge wrote:
                      >
                      >> I have a Pali Dictionary by the veteran Japanese Pali scholar, Kogen
                      >> Mizuno,
                      >
                      >Is it copyrighted? (Probably so.)
                      >
                      >> which contains a useful alphabetical list of all Pali grammatical
                      >> suffixes and what they are -- a knowledge of Japanese is not essential.
                      >> As it runs to about 11 pages, it would be a lot for me to type out but I
                      >> could scan the pages for people.
                      >
                      >If it is copyrighted, then you are not allowed to do so by law.
                      >
                      >And, of course, it would be a breach of the precept against taking what is not
                      >given.

                      As Ong pointed out, there are 'fair use' laws for copying works for
                      personal study, however I believe the laws are different from country
                      to country. I'm not sure what is the right way to apply the precept
                      of not stealing, but my inclination would be to follow copyright law
                      in this matter.

                      I also feel personally that it should be okay to copy any material
                      (for personal use) that is out of print, if there isn't a new edition
                      coming.

                      Anyhow, back to Fahs, it's a bit too long for me to copy, and I don't
                      have a scanner. But it does occasionally turn up on the used book
                      sites, and I recommend it highly.

                      Until then, I don't mind looking up verb forms in it, if anyone posts
                      them here. I just can't promise to answer the same day :-)

                      Best regards

                      /Rett
                    • Stephen Hodge
                      ... Yes, that is my understanding of the situation. As an author myself, I have a vested interest in copyright laws, although I don t worry too much about
                      Message 10 of 18 , Aug 2, 2004
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                        Ong Yong Peng wrote:

                        > if the 11 pages make up less than 10% of the book, and it is
                        > distributed in a restricted manner for academic use, it is not
                        > against the copyright law. I hope I am right about that.
                        Yes, that is my understanding of the situation. As an author myself, I have
                        a vested interest in copyright laws, although I don't worry too much about
                        people copying my Dharma-related material if it is for non-commercial
                        purposes. The relevent section of the Japanese Pali Dic actually forms
                        under 2% of the whole work, so I feel reasonably certain that there is no
                        problem.
                        Also, I am not sure whether copyright can be applied retrospectively -- this
                        Pali Dic was originally published in 1968, before, I believe, Japan had
                        implemented copyright laws.

                        > The Files section is almost full, and need some housekeeping.
                        > However, if the files are in JPEG or GIF, you can place them under
                        > the Photos section.

                        OK, I have scanned these pages as double spreads, which should be legible
                        but will save space. Now I'll try to upload them -- but as I have not done
                        this before on Yahoo, I might need some advice.

                        Best wishes,
                        Stephen Hodge
                      • Lothar Schenk
                        ... Copyright law in Japan goes much further back than 1968, as you can see on this site: http://www.cric.or.jp/cric_e/csj/csj.html Quote: The first
                        Message 11 of 18 , Aug 3, 2004
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                          Stephen Hodge wrote:

                          > Also, I am not sure whether copyright can be applied retrospectively --
                          > this Pali Dic was originally published in 1968, before, I believe, Japan
                          > had implemented copyright laws.

                          Copyright law in Japan goes much further back than 1968, as you can see on
                          this site:

                          http://www.cric.or.jp/cric_e/csj/csj.html

                          Quote:

                          "The first legislation on copyright was the Publishing Ordinance, which was
                          enacted in 1869. This Ordinance provided for both the protection of copyright
                          and the regulation on publishers. In 1887, the copyright part of this
                          Ordinance became independent as a newly established legislation called the
                          Copyright Ordinance, which is said to be the first copyright legislation in
                          Japan in substance.

                          Japan acceded to the Berne Convention in 1899. As a new set of provisions was
                          required to comply with the Berne Convention, the Copyright Ordinance was
                          changed as a whole into the Copyright Law in 1899. This Copyright Law of 1899
                          (the old Copyright Law) is referred to as the first modern copyright law of
                          Japan consistent with the international standard of copyright protection."

                          As to fair use practices, I do not see a clear-cut provision in the Japanese
                          law (see here: http://www.cric.or.jp/cric_e/clj/clj.html, under Subsection 5
                          Limitations on Copyright) which would specifically endorse your proposed use
                          of the work. It is dubious, at best. More so, if one feels the Buddha's
                          precepts should be kept.

                          I think a far better course of action would be, if a knowledgeable member of
                          the list would compile a similar set of tables and put them into the public
                          domain. Unfortunately, I have just begun studying Pali and don't think I will
                          be qualified to do such a work in the near future, or I would do it myself.

                          Lothar
                        • Ong Yong Peng
                          Dear Lothar and friends, thanks for the info. I agree that we should respect the ownership rights of authors, and under the copyright laws, written permission
                          Message 12 of 18 , Aug 3, 2004
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                            Dear Lothar and friends,

                            thanks for the info. I agree that we should respect the ownership
                            rights of authors, and under the copyright laws, written permission
                            is needed or reference should be made to the author of the work,
                            among other things.

                            Kogen Mizuno (born 1901, yes he is 103 years old now!) is the
                            authority of Pali scholarship in Japan. His Pali Grammar and
                            Dictionary are still available:

                            1. Amazon Japan
                            Pali Dictionary http://www.amazon.co.jp/exec/obidos/ASIN/4393101030/
                            Pali Grammar http://www.amazon.co.jp/exec/obidos/ASIN/4796300104/

                            2. Shunjusha
                            Pali Dictionary http://www.shunjusha.co.jp/book/10/10103.html
                            Shunjusha is the publisher of the dictionary, but not the grammar.

                            A popular book by Mizuno is The Beginnings of Buddhism:
                            English http://www.amazon.co.jp/exec/obidos/ASIN/4333003830
                            USA --- http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/4333003830

                            The latest edition of the book in Japanese:
                            http://www.amazon.co.jp/exec/obidos/ASIN/4333013941

                            Japanese Buddhist research has influenced similar studies in Taiwan
                            (and Hong Kong), if nowhere else, since the other parts of the world
                            conduct Buddhist research quite independently from East Asia. And the
                            majority of Mizuno's works are made available in Chinese by Taiwanese
                            translations. http://www.humanity.com.tw/237/114.htm


                            metta,
                            Yong Peng


                            --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Lothar Schenk wrote:
                            Copyright law in Japan goes much further back than 1968, as you can
                            see on this site: http://www.cric.or.jp/cric_e/csj/csj.html

                            As to fair use practices, I do not see a clear-cut provision in the
                            Japanese law (see here: http://www.cric.or.jp/cric_e/clj/clj.html,
                            under Subsection 5 Limitations on Copyright) which would specifically
                            endorse your proposed use of the work. It is dubious, at best. More
                            so, if one feels the Buddha's precepts should be kept.
                          • Stephen Hodge
                            ... Yes, my mistake -- I was thinking of China. I am sorry you continue to be unhappy about my scannning and posting a few pages from Prof Mizuno s Dictionary.
                            Message 13 of 18 , Aug 3, 2004
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                              Lothar Schenk wrote:

                              > Copyright law in Japan goes much further back than 1968, as you can see on
                              > this site:
                              Yes, my mistake -- I was thinking of China.
                              I am sorry you continue to be unhappy about my scannning and posting a few
                              pages from Prof Mizuno's Dictionary. For myself, I honestly do not think
                              any impropriety is involved -- the pages constitute about 2% of the whole
                              book, the membership of the Pali group is limited and quasi-private, no
                              financial gain or loss is likely to be involved, and credit has been given
                              for the source.
                              If you are having difficulties with your conscious, then you must do what
                              you feel is right: don't use the files. I hope you are as scrupulous in all
                              your other activities -- bearing in mind the old anarchist adage "property
                              is theft".

                              Best wishes,
                              Stephen Hodge
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