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AN Translations

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  • Yuttadhammo
    Dear Jim, Thanks for the more info... about using the word sphere, I m taking into account all the commentaries and Thai MCU explanation, where the cause , or
    Message 1 of 366 , Jul 16, 2004
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      Dear Jim,

      Thanks for the more info... about using the word sphere, I'm
      taking into account all the commentaries and Thai MCU
      explanation, where the "cause", or "hetu" as the Thai
      translates it, is explained at some length, ending with the
      following clause:

      "dte nai tii nii maay tuung hetu kuh upanissaya heng kaan
      banlu khunviset nan."

      My translation here, for those who don't speak Thai:

      "But herein, it refers to the root cause, which is the
      upanissaya (prior supporting conditions) in regards to the
      attainment of that special goodness."

      So, I'm trying to keep to what I thought was a fairly
      literal translation of aayatana (though I may be misled)
      while still given the idea of the presence of the
      prerequisite upanissaya. This is my defence/rejoinder :)

      Second, in regards to this still lingering idea of sati
      translated as mindfulness, there is a curious anomaly in the
      Thai explanation, where it explains "sati sati aayatane" as
      "mua mii hetu". The exact passage:

      " 'mua mii hetu' bleh jaak paalii waa 'sati sati aayatane'
      (mua mii hetu heng sati) ..."

      The interesting part here is the part in parentheses. Why
      did they leave the word 'sati' there if it is a relative
      correlative with tatra tatreva? And why only in brackets?
      Funny that.

      About tatra tatreva, I suppose a more literal translation
      could be sought, but the distinction part seems clear
      enough: in this or any (tatreva) distinction. I thought
      "here or anywhere" captured the idea without introducing a
      word that isn't there, but maybe I'm missing the point...

      Thank you for taking the time to help with this, it is much
      appreciated.

      Best wishes,

      Yuttadhammo

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson_on@...>
      To: <Pali@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Friday, July 16, 2004 11:25 PM
      Subject: Re: [Pali] AN Translations


      > Dear Ven. Yuttadhammo (and Nina),
      >
      > Thanks for the notes and the Visuddhimagga reference. I
      also did some
      > searching and found some commentarial explanations that
      shed further
      > light. For an explanation of the term "sakkhibhabbataa", I
      quote the
      > following from the Vibha"nga-muula.tiikaa:
      >
      > paccakkha.m yassa atthi, so sakkhi, sakkhino bhabbataa
      > sakkhibhabbataa, sakkhibhavanataati vutta.m hoti. sakkhi
      ca so bhabbo
      > caati vaa sakkhibhabbo. aya~nhi iddhividhaadiina.m bhabbo,
      tattha ca
      > sakkhiiti sakkhibhabbo, tassa bhaavo sakkhibhabbataa, ta.m
      > paapu.naati. aayataneti pubbahetaadike kaara.ne sati. --
      p. 152
      > (Myanmarese ed. from CSCD)
      >
      > This shows two ways in which the compound can be derived.
      The
      > anu.tiikaa comments on "sakkhibhavanataa" and
      "pubbahetaadike".
      >
      > For a very informative explanation of "sati sati kaara.ne"
      (and
      > sakkhibhabbataa) see the MN a.t.thakathaa and .tiikaa near
      the end of
      > the Mahaavacchagottasutta (no. 73). In the
      A"nguttaranikaaya sentence
      > being studied, the part still needing more explanation for
      me is
      > "tatra tatreva" which the a.t.thakathaa explains as:
      tasmi.m tasmi.m
      > visese (in this and that distinction). I'm not sure what
      these
      > distinctions are, perhaps they are the six supernormal
      abhi~n~naa-s, I
      > don't know.
      >
      > In your:
      >
      > > With six, o monks, dhammas endowed, a monk is unable
      here or
      > > anywhere to attain realisation with his own eyes, though
      it
      > > be within his sphere.
      >
      > I think "here or anywhere . . . his sphere" still needs
      more work.
      > "his sphere" doesn't at all reflect 'aayatane' in the
      sense of
      > 'kaara.ne' (cause) according to the commentary. I notice
      that in some
      > of the readings in the Burmese texts for other similar
      passages there
      > is a hyphen: sati-aayatane. This suggests a compound with
      'sati' in
      > the sense of mindfulness, not with the loc. sing. of
      santa. I'm
      > inclined to think the hyphen doesn't belong.
      >
      > I can't help too much more unless I take up the study of
      the
      > commentarial passages I've just indicated above (and
      undoubtedly this
      > will lead to other ones to study as well) which I don't
      have enough
      > time for at present, unfortunately.
      >
      > Best wishes,
      > Jim
      >
      > > Dear Jim,
      > >
      > > Thank you for the correction, I learned something new :)
      I
      > > found what you are talking about in Duroiselle's Grammar
      > > sect. 603. I ran a search and found this clause "sati
      sati
      > > aayatane" in the Visuddhimagga (VIII,76), where
      Nyanamoli
      > > translates it as "whenever there is occasion." He cites
      the
      > > commentaries to support this. The MCU Thai version
      seems to
      > > be following the same with "mua mii hetu" and has some
      > > interesting notes in the pa~ncakanipaata (vol ??, page
      28).
      > > The Vism Maha-tika says: "pubbahetu-aadi-kaara.ne sati".
      > >
      > > It's just a stab in the dark, but maybe this works:
      > >
      > > "Chahi, bhikkhave, dhammehi samannaagato bhikkhu abhabbo
      > > tatra tatreva sakkhibhabbata'm paapu.nitu'm sati sati
      > > aayatane.
      > > /with six /o monks /dhammas /endowed /a monk /is unable
      > > /there /anywhere /realisation with his own eyes/to
      attain
      > > /though it be /within his sphere /
      > >
      > > With six, o monks, dhammas endowed, a monk is unable
      here or
      > > anywhere to attain realisation with his own eyes, though
      it
      > > be within his sphere.
      > >
      > > The opposite:
      > >
      > > With six, o monks, dhammas endowed, a monk is able here
      or
      > > anywhere to attain realisation with his own eyes, should
      it
      > > be within his sphere.
      > >
      > > Hope that is getting closer :)
      > >
      > > Best wishes,
      > >
      > > Yuttadhammo
      >
      >
      >
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      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • nina van gorkom
      Dear Yong Peng, I found this in my concepts file not sent. So, I send it now, though belated (29 July). I cannot remember whether I sent it, but I do not see
      Message 366 of 366 , Aug 17, 2006
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        Dear Yong Peng,

        I found this in my concepts file not sent. So, I send it now, though
        belated (29 July). I cannot remember whether I sent it, but I do not
        see it in the messages.

        Nina.
        op 07-06-2006 08:45 schreef Ong Yong Peng op pali.smith@...:

        please advise on the word: aruupasa~n~nii

        21-25. Saddhindriya.m bhaaveti... viiriyindriya.m bhaaveti...
        satindriya.m bhaaveti... samaadhindriya.m bhaaveti...
        pa~n~nindriya.m bhaaveti....



        ----------------------------------------------------------

        21-25. Saddhindriya.m bhaaveti... viiriyindriya.m bhaaveti...
        satindriya.m bhaaveti... samaadhindriya.m bhaaveti...
        pa~n~nindriya.m bhaaveti....
        ["O monks, if a monk] developed the faculty of faith (faculty of
        energy, faculty of mindfulness, faculty of concentration, faculty of
        wisdom), [even for the duration of a finger-snap, monks, such is
        said...]
        ------
        N: such a one is said...
        --------
        ----------------------------------------------------------

        31-37. Satisambojjha`nga.m bhaaveti... dhammavicayasambojjha`nga.m
        bhaaveti... viiriyasambojjha`nga.m bhaaveti... piitisambojjha`nga.m
        bhaaveti... passaddhisambojjha`nga.m bhaaveti...
        samaadhisambojjha`nga.m bhaaveti... upekkhaasambojjha`nga.m
        bhaaveti....

        ["O monks, if a monk] developed the mindfulness (doctrinal
        investigation,
        ------
        N: Investigation of Dhamma.
        -------

        38-45. Sammaadi.t.thi.m bhaaveti... sammaasa`nkappa.m bhaaveti...
        sammaavaaca.m bhaaveti... sammaakammanta.m bhaaveti... sammaa-
        aajiiva.m bhaaveti... sammaavaayaama.m bhaaveti... sammaasati.m
        bhaaveti... sammaasamaadhi.m bhaaveti....
        ["O monks, if a monk] developed right view (right intention, right
        speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right
        mindfulness, right concentration), [even for the duration of a
        finger-snap, monks, such is said...]
        -------
        N: sammaasa`nkappa.m: instead of right intention: right thinking.

        Intention is usually reserved for the term cetanaa, volition or kamma
        which
        is not a factor of the eightfold Path.
        Sammaadi.t.thi and sammaasa`nkappa are together called the wisdom of the
        eightfold Path. Sammaasa`nkappa is vitakka cetasika and it assists
        paññaa in
        'touching' or striking the object of understanding so that paññaa can
        know
        it.

        ----------------------------------------------------------

        46-53. Ajjhatta.m ruupasa~n~nii bahiddhaa ruupaani passati
        parittaani suva.n.nadubba.n.naani. 'Taani abhibhuyya jaanaami
        passaamii'ti -- eva.msa~n~nii hoti...
        ["O monks, if a monk, even for the duration of a finger-snap,]
        conscious of material forms arising from within,
        -------
        N: ajjhatta: I would eliminate arising, thus: within himself.
        I think materiality of his own body.
        He can develop kasinas taking as subject parts of his own body or
        external
        objects and then attain ruupa-jhaana.
        --------

        * appamaa.na (adj) endless, immeasurable, boundless, unlimited.
        ------
        N: here is allusion to the immaterial jhaanas, and here is the
        connection
        with the term aruupasa~n~nin.
        I consulted Dhammasangani Pali, 225: this has aruupasa~n~na. This is
        translated by PTS as: unconscious of any part of his corporeal self..

        The *a* is a negation of ruupasa~n~nin, not of ruupa, thus, not
        perceiving
        ruupa, materiality, of his own body. (See below the Atthasaalinii).
        The word unconscious seems misleading.
        ---------
        Ajjhatta.m aruupasa~n~nii bahiddhaa ruupaani passati parittaani
        suva.n.nadubba.n.naani. 'Taani abhibhuyya jaanaami passaamii'ti --
        eva.msa~n~nii hoti...

        ["O monks, if a monk, even for the duration of a finger-snap,]
        conscious of immaterial forms arising from within,
        ------
        N: immaterial forms: this is a contradiction.
        It could be: not conscious of material forms of his own body...
        This could be applied of all the following paras. These paras seem to
        refer
        to the colour kasinas of ruupa-jhaana.

        The Atthasaalinii, Co. to the Dhammasangani, explains (188) these
        'positions
        of mastery'.
        <'Not perceiving material quality in himself' means devoid of the
        perception
        of the preamble in his own bodily frame, either from not getting it,
        or from
        not wishing it.
        'Sees material qualities external to himself' means, from having
        performed
        the preamble externally in the eight devices, he sees with jhaana-
        eyes the
        external objects of these eight devices by virtue of the preamble and
        the
        extasy.
        'Limited' means not growing....
        Beautiful or ugly means pure or impure colours...>

        It is asked why it is said, Not perceiving material quality in
        himself, this
        is because his own body is not to be mastered, only external objects...
        *****
        Nina.






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