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Re: Patisambhidamagga - Path of Discrimination (2nd Edition, 1997) PTS

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  • rjkjp1
    ... aspects of life ... Venerable Dhammanando: But doesn t this amount to a conflation of khanti with upekkhaa? ... Dear Venerable Dhammanando, I was able to
    Message 1 of 21 , Jun 30, 2004
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      --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, dhammanando@c... wrote:
      > Robert;> > I tend to think khanti is not only for difficult
      aspects of life
      > > but there should be development of khanti even for the most
      > > pleasant and sublime feelings so that these are not grasped at.
      > > One endures even such feelings with khanti and detachment. Or
      > > there is khanti towards all objects through the eye, ear etc-
      > > whether they be desirable or undesirable. The commentary can be
      > > terse at times and not spell it all out. This is an aspect of
      > > Khanti- enduring the pleasant as well as the unpleasant- my
      > > teacher in thailand sometimes mentions.
      > +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
      Venerable Dhammanando: But doesn't this amount to a conflation of
      khanti with upekkhaa?
      >
      > Take the case of a sage being sawn to pieces by bandits. As I
      > understand it, it is by mettaa that there would arise no thought
      > of hatred towards his torturers, and by upekkhaa that he is
      > indifferent to the pain. And khanti, I suppose, would be his
      > ability to just lie still if there is no possibility of his
      > getting free.
      >
      > Applying this to the case of a man undergoing a very pleasurable
      > experience, I can see that he might be able to regard the
      > experience with upekkhaa, but what would it mean to say that he
      > has khanti in this situation? How would a man with khanti
      > enjoying oysters differ from one enjoying oysters without khanti?
      >
      >++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
      Dear Venerable Dhammanando,
      I was able to find one reference where khanti is defined as both
      acceptance (or endurance) of bothe the desirable and undedesirable.
      It is in Dhammapala's commentary to the Cariyapitaka:
      http://www.abhidhamma.org/Paramis-%20perfections%20of%20insight.htm
      "Patience[khanti] has the characteristic of acceptance; its function
      is to endure the desirable and undesirable; its manifestation is
      tolerance or non-opposition; seeing things as they really are is its
      proximate cause."

      I think in your example the man who has developed khanti towards the
      taste of oysters would be calm whether they had good or bad taste.
      The one who hadn't developed khanti would eat with akusala citta
      (either with greed or aversion) but the khanti man would have
      neither greed or aversion.
      with respect
      Robert
    • nina van gorkom
      Venerable Bhante Dhammanando, ... N: I like to note the proximate cause: insight. The development of paññaa is ciira kala bhaavana, it takes endless
      Message 2 of 21 , Jul 4, 2004
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        Venerable Bhante Dhammanando,
        Rober wrote:
        > I was able to find one reference where khanti is defined as both
        > acceptance (or endurance) of bothe the desirable and undedesirable.
        > It is in Dhammapala's commentary to the Cariyapitaka:
        > http://www.abhidhamma.org/Paramis-%20perfections%20of%20insight.htm
        > "Patience[khanti] has the characteristic of acceptance; its function
        > is to endure the desirable and undesirable; its manifestation is
        > tolerance or non-opposition; seeing things as they really are is its
        > proximate cause."
        N: I like to note the proximate cause: insight. The development of paññaa is
        ciira kala bhaavana, it takes endless patience. This is an aspect of
        patience that, as I see it, is very important. Thus, there is far more to it
        than adhivasana. But even enduring heat and cold is with developed paññaa.
        All objects are just nama and rupa, one does not mind what object impinges.
        You mention upekkhaa, but I think also patience is necessary to reach such
        equanimity. I like the text: patience is the highest ascetism. As to jhaana:
        a great deal of patience is required. Also maintaining jhaana, developing
        all the vasiis, and taking care that jhaana does not decline. We need
        patience in the study of Dhamma, to listen to it, to investigate it, to
        develop vipassanaa in whatever situation.
        Nina.
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