Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Patisambhidamagga - Path of Discrimination (2nd Edition, 1997) PTS

Expand Messages
  • Bill Gray
    Hi all, Has anyone here read the Patisambhidamagga - Path of Discrimination (2nd Edition,1997) published by the Pali Text Society? I am referring to the
    Message 1 of 21 , Jun 22, 2004
    • 0 Attachment
      Hi all,

      Has anyone here read the Patisambhidamagga - Path of Discrimination (2nd
      Edition,1997) published by the Pali Text Society? I am referring to the
      English translation.

      I'm thinking of ordering it, but since it will be expensive to get here in
      New Zealand, 114NZD to be exact, I don't want to waste money needlessly.

      Any unbiased comments regarding the book are welcome.

      May you all be happy and achieve the highest bliss,
      Bill
    • Dimitry A. Ivakhnenko (������� ��������
      Hi Bill, BG Has anyone here read the Patisambhidamagga - Path of Discrimination (2nd BG Edition,1997) published by the Pali Text Society? I am referring to
      Message 2 of 21 , Jun 23, 2004
      • 0 Attachment
        Hi Bill,

        BG> Has anyone here read the Patisambhidamagga - Path of Discrimination (2nd
        BG> Edition,1997) published by the Pali Text Society? I am referring to the
        BG> English translation.

        I have read it partly. It's not expensive if you order it directly
        from PTS.

        Patisambhidamagga contains some essential elements of early Buddhist
        practice, not preserved elsewhere. It is a good companion to
        Vimuttimagga and suttas.

        However extracting those fine points of practice from
        Patisambhidamagga requires good basic knowledge of the subject, and
        meditation experience.

        The situation is complicated by the fact that the classical commentary
        to Patisanbhidammagga on which translation is based, is often
        mistaken. Besides some Pali terms are misinterpreted, and it seems
        that English translator had limited knowledge of meditation, and translated
        text literally. Yet such are most Pali-English translations.

        The structure of the text is mostly tabular, i.e. big tables of data
        are described line by line. Unfortunately the translator has not
        drawn these tables.

        If you have enough patience to extract the jewels hidden in
        Patisambhidamagga, despite all difficulties mentioned above, then
        acquiring the book will be wothwhile.

        Best wishes,
        Dimitry

        http://dhamma.ru/sadhu/
      • rjkjp1
        ... Patisambhidamagga contains some essential elements of early Buddhist ... commentary ... Dear Dimitry, I have the Patisambhidhimagga, could you point out
        Message 3 of 21 , Jun 23, 2004
        • 0 Attachment
          --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "Dimitry A. Ivakhnenko (Äìèòðèé >
          Patisambhidamagga contains some essential elements of early Buddhist
          > practice, not preserved elsewhere. It is a good companion to
          > Vimuttimagga and suttas.
          >
          >
          > The situation is complicated by the fact that the classical
          commentary
          > to Patisanbhidammagga on which translation is based, is often
          > mistaken.
          Dear Dimitry,
          I have the Patisambhidhimagga, could you point out where the
          commentary is mistaken. Why do you recommend the Vimuttimagga, a non-
          Theravada text?
          RobertK
        • nina van gorkom
          Dear Bill, ... Nina: Yes. As I recently mentioned, the English transl is at timnes awkward, but with the help of glossary and index in the back you can get the
          Message 4 of 21 , Jun 23, 2004
          • 0 Attachment
            Dear Bill,
            op 23-06-2004 05:40 schreef Bill Gray op grusic@...:
            > Has anyone here read the Patisambhidamagga - Path of Discrimination (2nd
            > Edition,1997) published by the Pali Text Society? I am referring to the
            > English translation.
            Nina: Yes. As I recently mentioned, the English transl is at timnes awkward,
            but with the help of glossary and index in the back you can get the Pali and
            right meaning. I have it also in Thai+ Co. which is useful. If you have
            problems in reading qu. are wellcome, I can try to find the answer. It
            describes the stages of insight and together with the Visuddhimagga it is
            useful. We also find material on the processes of cittas, under cariya,
            behaviour. Very good. People often wonder whether the processes are only in
            the Commentaries. The chapters on the Buddha's omniscience and
            mahaa-karu.naa are very beautiful.
            Here is an extract on the latent tendencies, this to give you a flavour:
            <Here the Perfect One knows beings¹ biasses, he knows their underlying
            tendencies (åsayånusaya ñå.na), he knows their behaviour (carita), he knows
            their dispositions(adhimutti), he knows beings as capable and incapable.
            586. What is the bias which is latent in beings?
            Beings are supported by the wrong view of existence or supported by the
            wrong view of non-existence thus: ŒThe world is eternal¹ or ŒThe world is
            not eternal¹ or ŒThe world is finite¹ or ŒThe world is infinite¹ or ŒThe
            soul and the body are the same¹ or ŒThe soul is one, the body another¹ or ŒA
            Perfect One is not after death¹ or ³A Perfect One both is and is not after
            death¹ or ŒA Perfect One neither is nor is not after death.¹ Or else,
            avoiding these extremes, they have Œacceptance in conformity¹ with respect
            to dhammas that are dependently arisen through specific conditionality.
            He also knows them as pursuing sensual-desires thus: ŒThis person gives
            importance to sensual desires, is biassed to sensual desires, is inclined to
            sensual desires. He also knows them as pursuing renunciation thus: This
            person gives importance to renunciation, is biassed to renunciation, is
            inclined to renunciation. He also knows them as pursuing ill-will thus:
            ŒThis person gives
            importance to ill-will, is biassed to ill-will, is inclined to ill-will. He
            also knows them as pursuing non-ill-will thus: ŒThis person gives importance
            to non-ill-will, is biassed to non-ill-will, is inclined to non-ill-will. He
            also knows them as pursuing stiffness-and-torpor thus: ŒThis person gives
            importance to stiffness-and-torpor, is biassed to stiffness-and-torpor, is
            inclined to stiffness-and-torpor. He also knows them as pursuing perception
            of light thus: ŒThis person gives importance to perception of light, is
            biassed to perception of light, is inclined to perception of light.
            These are the biasses (chanda) that become underlying tendencies in beings.
            587. What are the defilements that are underlying tendencies in beings?
            There are seven underlying tendencies (anusaya): Underlying tendency to
            greed for sense-desire (kåma-råga), underlying tendency to aversion
            (patigha), underlying tendency to conceit (måna), underlying tendency to
            wrong view (diììhi), underlying tendency to doubt (vicikicchå), underlying
            tendency to desire for becoming (continued existence, bhavaråga), and
            underlying tendency to ignorance (avijjå).²

            From the above quoted text we can see that behaviour, habits and defilements
            are accumulated and become dormant in the succession of cittas. Since the
            Buddha has knowledge of beings¹ biases and underlying tendencies
            (åsayånusaya ñå.na), we know that there are underlying tendencies.
            Nina.
          • Dimitry A. Ivakhnenko (Äìèòðèé À
            Dear Robert, r I have the Patisambhidhimagga, could you point out where the r commentary is mistaken. Some of these mistakes are pointed by the translator
            Message 5 of 21 , Jun 24, 2004
            • 0 Attachment
              Dear Robert,

              r> I have the Patisambhidhimagga, could you point out where the
              r> commentary is mistaken.

              Some of these mistakes are pointed by the translator himself, for
              example in the note 3 to chapter XIX.

              Some are the mistakes around the key term "nimitta"
              - see the note 5 to chapter III;
              - see the note 8 to chapter III;
              - see the note 24 to chapter III.

              The simplistic of 'nimitta' by the commentary does not fit the text
              itself, for example, paragraph 304 of the chapter I.

              In the chapter VIII of Visuddhimagga (paragraph 201 ff., paragraph 217
              ff.) which comments the Patisambhidamagga, the interpretation is more
              clear and it can be understood from the further explanation (paragraph
              204 ff., paragraph 219 ff.) that the term 'nimitta' here is used in
              the context of samadhi.

              See my previous post:
              DAIÄÀÈ> The term 'nimitta' is mentioned in AN 2.16 = DN 3.225:

              DAIÄÀÈ> 14. “Cattaarimaani, bhikkhave, padhaanaani. Katamaani cattaari?
              DAIÄÀÈ> Sa.mvarappadhaana.m, pahaanappadhaana.m, bhaavanaappadhaana.m,
              DAIÄÀÈ> anurakkha.naappadhaana.m. Katama~nca, bhikkhave, sa.mvarappadhaana.m?
              DAIÄÀÈ> Idha, bhikkhave, bhikkhu cakkhunaa ruupa.m disvaa na nimittaggaahii
              DAIÄÀÈ> hoti naanubya~njanaggaahii…
              DAIÄÀÈ> …
              DAIÄÀÈ> “Katama~nca, bhikkhave, anurakkha.naappadhaana.m? Idha, bhikkhave,
              DAIÄÀÈ> bhikkhu uppanna.m bhaddaka.m samaadhinimitta.m anurakkhati
              DAIÄÀÈ> a.t.thikasa~n~na.m pu.lavakasa~n~na.m viniilakasa~n~na.m
              DAIÄÀÈ> vicchiddakasa~n~na.m uddhumaatakasa~n~na.m. Ida.m vuccati, bhikkhave,
              DAIÄÀÈ> anurakkha.naappadhaana.m. Imaani kho, bhikkhave, cattaari
              DAIÄÀÈ> padhaanaanii”ti.

              DAIÄÀÈ> Here we see that 'nimitta' is closely related to perception, and the
              DAIÄÀÈ> monk, seeing a form, hearing a sound, etc., does not cling to it. Note
              DAIÄÀÈ> that nimitta is not limited to visual perception. Next, we see, that
              DAIÄÀÈ> in the context of samadhi nimitta is the apperception (sa~n~naa) of
              DAIÄÀÈ> the object of samadhi.

              DAIÄÀÈ> How can we reconcile these aspects of meaning?

              DAIÄÀÈ> The passage from Visuddhimagga (XIV 130) gives the clue:

              DAIÄÀÈ> "sabbaa va sa~njaanana-lakkha.naa, tad ev’etan ti puna
              DAIÄÀÈ> sa~njaanana-paccaya-nimitta-kara.na-rasaa daaru-aadiisu tacchakaadayo
              DAIÄÀÈ> viya, yathaa-gahita-nimitta-vasena abhinivesakara.na-paccupa.t.thaanaa
              DAIÄÀÈ> hatthi-dassaka-andhaa (udaa. 54) viya,
              DAIÄÀÈ> yathaa-upa.t.thita-visaya-pada-.t.thaanaa ti.na-purisakesu
              DAIÄÀÈ> miga-potakaana.m purisaa ti uppanna-sa~n~naa viyaati."

              DAIÄÀÈ> "All (sa~n~naa) has the characteristic of recognition (sa~njaanana);
              DAIÄÀÈ> its property is the making of perceptual image (nimitta) that is a
              DAIÄÀÈ> condition of recognizing again, 'this is the very same thing' - as
              DAIÄÀÈ> carpenters and so on do with the wood, etc.; its manifestation is the
              DAIÄÀÈ> producing of conviction by virtue of a perceptual image (nimitta) that
              DAIÄÀÈ> has been accordingly learnt - like the blind perceiving the elephant
              DAIÄÀÈ> ( http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/khuddaka/udana/ud6-04.html );
              DAIÄÀÈ> its basis is whatever object that has come near - like the
              DAIÄÀÈ> apperception (sa~n~naa) 'people' that arises for young animals in
              DAIÄÀÈ> respect of scarecrows."

              DAIÄÀÈ> Hence, 'nimitta' is the image one forms in the process of apperception
              DAIÄÀÈ> (sa~n~naa), used to recognize the object in the future. In
              DAIÄÀÈ> psychological terms it is a 'perceptual image' or 'representation'.

              DAIÄÀÈ> What it has to do with samadhi? In Mohavicchedani (Mya: .161) we read:

              DAIÄÀÈ> "Samathova ta.m aakaara.m gahetvaa puna pavattetabbassa samathassa
              DAIÄÀÈ> nimittanti samathanimitta.m."

              DAIÄÀÈ> "The perceptual image of calm (samatha) is a perceptual image used to
              DAIÄÀÈ> produce calm again when one has already learnt the appearance of
              DAIÄÀÈ> calm."

              DAIÄÀÈ> The principle of recognition is applied in the practice of samadhi, when
              DAIÄÀÈ> practitioner reaches the jhana again with the help of learnt
              DAIÄÀÈ> perceptual image of it.

              There's also a usual mistake regarding the interpretation of 'parimukha.m',
              given in the note 14 to chapter III.

              See my previous post:
              ÄÀÈDAI> "Parimukha.m sati.m upa.t.thapetvaa"ti tattha katamaa sati? Yaa
              ÄÀÈDAI> sati anussati pa.tissati …pe… sammaasati - aya.m vuccati "sati".
              ÄÀÈDAI> Aya.m sati upa.t.thitaa hoti supa.t.thitaa naasikagge vaa
              ÄÀÈDAI> mukhanimitte vaa. Tena vuccati "parimukha.m sati.m
              ÄÀÈDAI> upa.t.thapetvaa"ti.

              ÄÀÈDAI> Vibhangapali .252

              ÄÀÈDAI> "parimukha.m sati.m upa.t.thapetvaati kamma.t.thaan'aabhimukha.m sati.m
              ÄÀÈDAI> .thapayitvaa. mukhasamiipe vaa katvaati attho. teneva vibha'nge
              ÄÀÈDAI> vutta.m - "aya.m sati upa.t.thitaa hoti s³pa.t.thitaa naasikagge vaa
              ÄÀÈDAI> mukhanimitte vaa, tena vuccati parimukha.m sati.m upa.t.thapetvaa"ti
              ÄÀÈDAI> (vibha. 537). athavaa pariiti pariggaha.t.tho. mukhanti
              ÄÀÈDAI> niyyaana.t.tho. satiiti upa.t.thaana.t.tho. tena vuccati- "parimukha.m
              ÄÀÈDAI> satin"ti. eva.m pa.tisambhidaaya.m vuttanayenapettha attho
              ÄÀÈDAI> da.t.thabbo. tatraaya.m sa'nkhepo- "pariggahitaniyyaanasati.m
              ÄÀÈDAI> katvaa"ti.

              ÄÀÈDAI> Silakkhandhavagga-Atthakatha 1.211

              ÄÀÈDAI> In my inexperienced opinion Vibhanga seems to be one of the most
              ÄÀÈDAI> authoritative commentaries. In the passage above it clearly explains
              ÄÀÈDAI> 'parimukha.m' as 'the tip of the nose (naasikagge) or lip of the mouth
              ÄÀÈDAI> (mukha)'. Buddhaghosa's commentaries seem to be later.

              See also the article 'The Mystery of Breath Nimitta' by Bhikkhu Sona:
              http://my.tbaytel.net/arfh/dhamma/nimitta.html

              Besides, the commentary to the paragraph 6 of the chapter III, given in the
              note III, does not fit the text.

              r> Why do you recommend the Vimuttimagga, a non-Theravada text?

              Why do you think it is non-Theravadan? It would be more exact to say
              that it is non-Maha-Vihara text.

              The criteria of accepting the texts are given by Buddha in the
              Mahaparinibbana sutta as the "Four Great References".

              Without approval and without scorn, but carefully studying the
              sentences word by word, one should trace them in the Discourses
              and verify them by the Discipline. If they are neither traceable
              in the Discourses nor verifiable by the Discipline, one must
              conclude thus: 'Certainly, this is not the Blessed One's
              utterance; this has been misunderstood by that bhikkhu -- or by
              that community, or by those elders, or by that elder.' In that
              way, bhikkhus, you should reject it. But if the sentences
              concerned are traceable in the Discourses and verifiable by the
              Discipline, then one must conclude thus: 'Certainly, this is the
              Blessed One's utterance; this has been well understood by that
              bhikkhu -- or by that community, or by those elders, or by that
              elder.'

              Comparing the Vimuttimagga with suttas, we see that it closely
              conforms to the suttas. For example, the system of kasinas described
              exactly fits the suttas, even better than the description of the same
              system in Visuddhimagga. The three last kasinas in Vimuttimagga are
              the light kasina, space kasina and consciousness kasina, which
              conforms to the Sangiti sutta (D iii. 268)

              346. Dasa kasi.naayatanaani. pathaviikasi.nameko sa~njaanaati,
              uddha.m adho tiriya.m advaya.m appamaa.na.m. aapokasi.nameko
              sa~njaanaati …pe… tejokasi.nameko sa~njaanaati… vaayokasi.nameko
              sa~njaanaati… niilakasi.nameko sa~njaanaati… piitakasi.nameko
              sa~njaanaati… lohitakasi.nameko sa~njaanaati… odaatakasi.nameko
              sa~njaanaati… aakaasakasi.nameko sa~njaanaati…
              vi~n~naa.nakasi.nameko sa~njaanaati, uddha.m adho tiriya.m
              advaya.m appamaa.na.m.

              and Mahasakuladayi sutta (M ii. 330):

              250. "Puna capara.m, udaayi, akkhaataa mayaa saavakaana.m
              pa.tipadaa, yathaapa.tipannaa me saavakaa dasa kasi.naayatanaani
              bhaaventi. Pathaviikasi.nameko sa~njaanaati uddhamadho tiriya.m
              advaya.m appamaa.na.m; aapokasi.nameko sa~njaanaati …pe…
              tejokasi.nameko sa~njaanaati… vaayokasi.nameko sa~njaanaati…
              niilakasi.nameko sa~njaanaati… piitakasi.nameko sa~njaanaati…
              lohitakasi.nameko sa~njaanaati… odaatakasi.nameko sa~njaanaati…
              aakaasakasi.nameko sa~njaanaati … vi~n~naa.nakasi.nameko
              sa~njaanaati uddhamadho tiriya.m advaya.m appamaa.na.m. Tatra ca
              pana me saavakaa bahuu abhi~n~naavosaanapaaramippattaa viharanti.

              whereas in Visuddhimagga the last two kasinas are light kasina
              and limited-space kasina (see chapter V, paragraph 22).

              Best regards,
              Dimitry
            • Gunnar Gällmo
              ... Dimitry may answer that, but I think the question is wrongly put. When I once read the BPS edition of an English translation of the Vimuttivagga, I
              Message 6 of 21 , Jun 24, 2004
              • 0 Attachment
                --- rjkjp1 <rjkjp1@...> skrev:

                > Why do you recommend the
                > Vimuttimagga, a non-
                > Theravada text?
                > RobertK

                Dimitry may answer that, but I think the question is
                wrongly put. When I once read the BPS edition of an
                English translation of the Vimuttivagga, I understood
                it to be a Theravada text (BPS claims never to publish
                anything not compatible with Theravada doctrine),
                although the Pali original is lost.

                Gunnar



                =====
                gunnargallmo@...

                Höstrusk och grå moln - köp en resa till solen på Yahoo! Resor på adressen http://se.docs.yahoo.com/travel/index.html
              • Bill
                Thanks all. May you all be happy and achieve the highest bliss, Bill
                Message 7 of 21 , Jun 24, 2004
                • 0 Attachment
                  Thanks all.

                  May you all be happy and achieve the highest bliss,
                  Bill
                • rjkjp1
                  ... _____________ Dear Gunnar, Thanks for pointing this out, I hadn t realized that BPS is now the holder of Theravada orthodoxy. I think it is worth noting
                  Message 8 of 21 , Jun 25, 2004
                  • 0 Attachment
                    --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Gunnar Gällmo <gunnargallmo@y...> wrote:
                    > --- rjkjp1 <rjkjp1@y...> skrev:
                    >
                    > > Why do you recommend the
                    > > Vimuttimagga, a non-
                    > > Theravada text?
                    > > RobertK
                    > --------------
                    > Dimitry may answer that, but I think the question is
                    > wrongly put. When I once read the BPS edition of an
                    > English translation of the Vimuttivagga, I understood
                    > it to be a Theravada text (BPS claims never to publish
                    > anything not compatible with Theravada doctrine),
                    > although the Pali original is lost.
                    _____________
                    Dear Gunnar,
                    Thanks for pointing this out, I hadn't realized that BPS is now the
                    holder of Theravada orthodoxy.
                    I think it is worth noting that Theravada tradition prior to the BPS
                    (which began in the 1950's) rejected the Vimuttimagga.

                    From Skilling 171-210, Journal Pali Text Society volXX

                    "The position of the Vimuttimagga is closer to that of the
                    Vaibhasikas who
                    include all 4 elements in sprastavyayayatana.

                    A comparison of the Dhammasangani list with that of the Vimuttimagga
                    shows
                    ..the important difference that the later adds 3 items : rupassa jati
                    vathu rupa and middha.
                    Although the visuddhmagga attributes the heresy of middh-rupa
                    to .."some"
                    (ekaccanam matena) the tika tells us that this refers to the
                    Abhayagirivasins.

                    Thus the inclusion of both middh-rupa in both the Chinese
                    version and the tibetan extracts of the Vimuttimagga is evidence
                    that
                    the Vimutinmagga contains classifications that were rejected by the
                    Mahavihara but accepted by the Abhayagiri
                    Skilling concudes that the Vimuttimagga probably came from the
                    Abhayagiri
                    sect. He notes p200 "these are not minor points."
                    ___
                    On the Abhayagiri sect:
                    The mahavamsa notes (p267 -268)p264 that a King helped to purify the
                    sasana by
                    suppression of a heresy. He seized bhikkhus dwelling in the
                    Abhayagiri.."who
                    had turned to the Vetulya doctrine and were like a thorn in the
                    doctrine
                    of the Buddha and he excommunciated them."
                    It then notes that the thera
                    sanghamitta (from south India was embittered against the good
                    bhikkus of
                    the Mahavihara and bidded his time until the good king died and the
                    next
                    one jetthatissa died. Then his time was ripe when the younger
                    brother of
                    Jetthatissa (mahasena ) came to power
                    That the Thera sanghamitta , who dwelt at the Abhayagiri told the
                    king
                    that the Mahavihara teach a wrong doctrine and so the King made a
                    proclamation telling the popolulation that they could not feed any
                    monk from
                    the Mahavihara. The good monks thus abandoned it. Sanghamitta then
                    had the
                    King destroy the mahavihara and "carried away the materials of the
                    buildings
                    hence to the Abhagiri and by means of the many buidings that were
                    borne
                    away from the mahavihara the Abhayagiri became rich in buildings,
                    Holding
                    fast to his evil friend the thera sanghmitta and to his servant Sona
                    the
                    King wrought many a deed of wrong>...then by the ruthless Thera
                    sanghamitta the Abhayagiri-vihara was made stately to see"
                    Robertk
                  • rjkjp1
                    ... Dear Dimitry, The term nimitta has to be undertsood in context. The commentary make this clear and explains carefully. I see no reason to doubt it. I just
                    Message 9 of 21 , Jun 25, 2004
                    • 0 Attachment
                      ---
                      Dear Dimitry,

                      The term nimitta has to be undertsood in context. The commentary
                      make this clear and explains carefully. I see no reason to doubt it.
                      I just take up one point;

                      In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "Dimitry A. Ivakhnenko (Äìèòðèé Àëåêñååâè÷
                      Èâàõíåíêî)" <koleso@i...> wrote:
                      >.++++++++++++
                      >
                      > Some of these mistakes are pointed by the translator himself, for
                      > example in the note 3 to chapter XIX.

                      ++++++++++++
                      The pali is khantibala - and the commentary says "this is the
                      enduring of things hard to bear" .ie. patience.
                      As you say the English translator rejects this and uses the
                      word 'choice' for khanti. ("Choice power")
                      I see no reason to think the English translator is right in his
                      rejection of the Theravada tradition on this point.




                      >
                      > > > ÄÀÈDAI> In my inexperienced opinion Vibhanga seems to be one
                      of the most
                      > ÄÀÈDAI> authoritative commentaries. In the passage above it
                      clearly explains
                      > ÄÀÈDAI> 'parimukha.m' as 'the tip of the nose (naasikagge) or lip
                      of the mouth
                      > ÄÀÈDAI> (mukha)'. Buddhaghosa's commentaries seem to be later.
                      >


                      The Vibhanga is not a commentary it is part of the Tipitika, and
                      Buddhaghosa does not disagree with it.
                      RobertK
                    • dhammanando_bhikkhu
                      Hi Robert, ... I would prefer assent or acquiescence rather than Nyanamoli s choice , but I think he is correct in rejecting the commentator s
                      Message 10 of 21 , Jun 26, 2004
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Hi Robert,


                        Dimitriy wrote:

                        > > Some of these mistakes are pointed by the translator himself, for
                        > > example in the note 3 to chapter XIX.

                        Robert wrote:

                        > The pali is khantibala - and the commentary says "this is the
                        > enduring of things hard to bear" .ie. patience.
                        > As you say the English translator rejects this and uses the
                        > word 'choice' for khanti. ("Choice power")
                        > I see no reason to think the English translator is right in his
                        > rejection of the Theravada tradition on this point.

                        I would prefer 'assent' or 'acquiescence' rather than Nyanamoli's
                        'choice', but I think he is correct in rejecting the commentator's
                        interpretation of khantibala here.

                        In the passage cited by Dimitriy the dhammas to which the verb
                        'khamati' is applied are nekkhamma, abyaapaada, aalokasa~n~naa,
                        avikkhepa, dhammavavatthaana, ~naa.na, paamojja, the four
                        ruupajjhaanas, the four aruupaayatanas, the four ariyamaggas, and
                        first three ariyaphalas.

                        Which of these would be hard to bear?

                        Best wishes,

                        Dhammanando
                      • rjkjp1
                        ... Dear Venerable Dhammanando, In the case of the passage in the Patisambhidhimagga it is by patience (khanti), as it becomes powerful (khanti-bala) that one
                        Message 11 of 21 , Jun 27, 2004
                        • 0 Attachment
                          --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "dhammanando_bhikkhu"
                          <dhammanando@c...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Robert wrote:
                          >
                          > > The pali is khantibala - and the commentary says "this is the
                          > > enduring of things hard to bear" .ie. patience.
                          > > As you say the English translator rejects this and uses the
                          > > word 'choice' for khanti. ("Choice power")
                          > > I see no reason to think the English translator is right in his
                          > > rejection of the Theravada tradition on this point.
                          >
                          ____________________________________________________________________
                          > I would prefer 'assent' or 'acquiescence' rather than Nyanamoli's
                          > 'choice', but I think he is correct in rejecting the commentator's
                          > interpretation of khantibala here.
                          >
                          > In the passage cited by Dimitriy the dhammas to which the verb
                          > 'khamati' is applied are nekkhamma, abyaapaada, aalokasa~n~naa,
                          > avikkhepa, dhammavavatthaana, ~naa.na, paamojja, the four
                          > ruupajjhaanas, the four aruupaayatanas, the four ariyamaggas, and
                          > first three ariyaphalas.
                          >
                          > Which of these would be hard to bear?
                          >
                          > +++++++++++++++++++

                          Dear Venerable Dhammanando,


                          In the case of the passage in the Patisambhidhimagga it is by
                          patience (khanti), as it becomes powerful (khanti-bala) that one
                          abandons sense desires (nekkhama) and finally abandons all
                          defilements. At least that is how I read the passage. I guess one
                          can read it in other ways - but why, when it is already made clear
                          by the ancient commentary?
                          RobertK
                        • Dimitry A. Ivakhnenko (Äìèòðèé À
                          Dear Robert, ... Why do you think so? The events you describe relate to the rejection of vetulya doctrines, much later than the time when Vimuttimagga was
                          Message 12 of 21 , Jun 27, 2004
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Dear Robert,

                            > I think it is worth noting that Theravada tradition prior to the BPS
                            > (which began in the 1950's) rejected the Vimuttimagga.

                            Why do you think so? The events you describe relate to the rejection
                            of 'vetulya' doctrines, much later than the time when Vimuttimagga was
                            composed (1st century CE). Vimuttimagga is a perfectly Theravadin
                            work, without any elements of 'vetulya'.

                            The attitude of the Mahavihara members to the Vimuttimagga is well
                            expressed in the commentary Vimuttimaggapakaranam,
                            http://www.tipitaka.org/tipitaka/e0105n/e0105n-26.html
                            The venerable author just tells that it is a work similar to
                            Visuddhimagga, and indicates differences and similarities between
                            these two works. Evidently there was no blunt rejection. The members
                            of Mahavihara just had their own viewpoint on some controversial issues.

                            r> The term nimitta has to be undertsood in context. The commentary
                            r> make this clear and explains carefully. I see no reason to doubt it.

                            Would you please explain what exactly you don't doubt?

                            The Patisambhidamagga verse

                            Nimitta.m assaasapassaasaa, anaaramma.namekacittassa;
                            ajaanato ca tayo dhamme, bhaavanaa nupalabbhati.
                            Nimitta.m assaasapassaasaa, anaaramma.namekacittassa;
                            jaanato ca tayo dhamme, bhaavanaa upalabbhatiiti.

                            - Ps 1.170

                            is interpreted very differently in Patisambhidamagga-Atthakatha and in
                            Visuddhimagga.

                            PsA says that the 'nimitta' in this verse is the nose-tip or upper lip
                            (see note 8 to chapter III). However the Visuddhimagga (chapter VIII,
                            paragraph 217) interprets this 'nimitta' in the context of samadhi, as
                            a 'perceptual image' used in the development of collectedness
                            (samatha).

                            With which of these interpretations do you agree?

                            r> The Vibhanga is not a commentary it is part of the Tipitika, and
                            r> Buddhaghosa does not disagree with it.

                            If you read the Vibhanga, you would notice that it is in effect
                            largely a commentary to the suttas (though of course it does not
                            belong to the Atthakatha literature, being composed much earlier).

                            Specifically, the explanation of 'parimukha.m' mentioned:

                            "Parimukha.m sati.m upa.t.thapetvaa"ti tattha katamaa sati? Yaa
                            sati anussati pa.tissati …pe… sammaasati - aya.m vuccati "sati".
                            Aya.m sati upa.t.thitaa hoti supa.t.thitaa naasikagge vaa
                            mukhanimitte vaa. Tena vuccati "parimukha.m sati.m
                            upa.t.thapetvaa"ti.
                            Vibhangapali .252

                            belongs to the Jhaanavibha"nga section of Vibhanga, which is a
                            commentary to the concise explanation of jhanas in the suttas.

                            In the passage above Vibhanga clearly explains 'parimukha.m' as 'the
                            tip of the nose (naasikagge) or lip of the mouth (mukha)'.

                            However the interpretation of Patisambhidammagga-Atthakatha is
                            completely different - "Having established mindfulness as the embraced
                            outlet of the in-breaths and out-breaths" (see note 14 th the chapter
                            III of Patisambhidamagga).

                            As for Buddhaghosa, he interprets this phrase in Visuddhimagga
                            (chapter VIII, paragraph 161) as "having placed mindfulness facing the
                            meditation subject".

                            So Buddhaghosa does contradict the Vibhanga.

                            Best wishes,
                            Dimitry
                          • rjkjp1
                            ... members ... issues. +++++++++++++++ Dear Dimitry, Why do you think the Vimuttimagga is not available in Pali. Why didn t the venerable order preserve it
                            Message 13 of 21 , Jun 27, 2004
                            • 0 Attachment
                              > --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "Dimitry A. Ivakhnenko (Äìèòðèé
                              > Dear Robert,
                              >
                              > Vimuttimagga is a perfectly Theravadin
                              > work, without any elements of 'vetulya'.
                              >
                              > <snip>
                              > The venerable author just tells that it is a work similar to
                              > Visuddhimagga, and indicates differences and similarities between
                              > these two works. Evidently there was no blunt rejection. The
                              members
                              > of Mahavihara just had their own viewpoint on some controversial
                              issues.

                              +++++++++++++++
                              Dear Dimitry,
                              Why do you think the Vimuttimagga is not available in Pali. Why
                              didn't the venerable order preserve it along with the
                              Visuddhimagga.It has been since the 1980's that I read it so I can't
                              remember many details. You gave this reply in an earlier post about
                              it;"To Robert Kirkpatrick:
                              Indeed Vimuttimagga contains Mahayana-like allusions to Bodhisattvas
                              and Mahasattvas. That may be the reason why it didn't survive in Pali
                              version."
                              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Pali/message/1345


                              +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++=
                              >
                              > r> The term nimitta has to be undertsood in context. The commentary
                              > r> make this clear and explains carefully. I see no reason to
                              doubt it.
                              >
                              > Would you please explain what exactly you don't doubt?
                              >
                              > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++=
                              The commentaries emphasize different aspects at different times. It
                              is too much of a task for me to investigate each point but I see no
                              reason why each explanation is not right at that level/context.


                              RobertK
                            • rjkjp1
                              ... Robert;The Vibhanga is not a commentary it is part of the Tipitika, and ... Dimitry; If you read the Vibhanga, you would notice that it is in effect ...
                              Message 14 of 21 , Jun 27, 2004
                              • 0 Attachment
                                --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "Dimitry A. Ivakhnenko (Äìèòðèé > r>
                                Robert;The Vibhanga is not a commentary it is part of the Tipitika,
                                and
                                > r> Buddhaghosa does not disagree with it.
                                > +++++++++++++++++++++++
                                Dimitry; If you read the Vibhanga, you would notice that it is in
                                effect
                                > largely a commentary to the suttas (though of course it does not
                                > belong to the Atthakatha literature, being composed much earlier).
                                +++++++++++++++++++++++++


                                Dear Dimitry,
                                I have read the Vibhanga, and it is part of the Tipitaka. According
                                to the Theravada it was recited along with the Suttanta and Vinaya
                                at the first council shortly after the parinibbana of the Buddha.
                                ___________________________________________
                                >
                                > Specifically, the explanation of 'parimukha.m' mentioned:
                                >
                                > "Parimukha.m sati.m upa.t.thapetvaa"ti tattha katamaa sati? Yaa
                                > sati anussati pa.tissati …pe… sammaasati - aya.m
                                vuccati "sati".
                                > Aya.m sati upa.t.thitaa hoti supa.t.thitaa naasikagge vaa
                                > mukhanimitte vaa. Tena vuccati "parimukha.m sati.m
                                > upa.t.thapetvaa"ti.
                                > Vibhangapali .252
                                >
                                > As for Buddhaghosa, he interprets this phrase in Visuddhimagga
                                > (chapter VIII, paragraph 161) as "having placed mindfulness facing
                                the
                                > meditation subject".
                                >
                                > So Buddhaghosa does contradict the Vibhanga.
                                ++++++++++
                                Buddhaghosa was the authour (editor/ translator) of the
                                Sammohavinodani - the commentary to the Vibhanga. If he contradicted
                                the word of the Buddha (as recorded in the Vibhanga) wouldn't the
                                monks at the time have pointed this out? What you see as a
                                contradictiion might be as simply a matter of emphasis in
                                explantion. Buddhaghosa is very thorough, sometimes he repeats what
                                he has said elsewhere but sometimes he goes further or looks at
                                another aspect.

                                One may study the texts looking for any little fault, trying to
                                prove them wrong. Is that the way Dhamma is understood?
                                I accept there can be errors in the commentaries. In fact
                                Buddhaghosa sometimes points out that one commentary says this and
                                another has a slightly different idea. Even the Tipitaka can have
                                some mistakes. But are we the ones to find them?

                                We are far from the time of the Buddha, are our opinions more
                                mature than the arahants in Sri lanka who worked to preserve the
                                teachings over a millenia ago? There is a reason that the sangha
                                have valued and still recite the commentaries at the councils.
                                RobertK
                                >
                              • Dimitry A. Ivakhnenko (������� ��������
                                Dear Robert, r Why do you think the Vimuttimagga is not available in Pali. Why r didn t the venerable order preserve it along with the r Visuddhimagga. It s
                                Message 15 of 21 , Jun 27, 2004
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Dear Robert,

                                  r> Why do you think the Vimuttimagga is not available in Pali. Why
                                  r> didn't the venerable order preserve it along with the
                                  r> Visuddhimagga.

                                  It's an interesting question.

                                  r> You gave this reply in an earlier post about
                                  r> it;"To Robert Kirkpatrick:
                                  r> Indeed Vimuttimagga contains Mahayana-like allusions to Bodhisattvas
                                  r> and Mahasattvas. That may be the reason why it didn't survive in Pali
                                  r> version."
                                  r> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Pali/message/1345

                                  However now it seems to me not a valid reason, since the terms
                                  'bodhisatta" and 'mahasatta' are used as well in the Atthakatha.
                                  So these terms fit well the Theravada tradition.

                                  The extensive quotations from Vimuttimagga in the
                                  'Samskrta-asamskrta-vini'scaya' by Dasabalasrimitra testify that
                                  Vimuttimagga was still available in India in the 12th century CE, as a
                                  representative Theravada work. However the consequent decline of
                                  Buddhism in India meant the extinction of numerous texts.

                                  The texts were well preserved in Sri Lanka. However since the
                                  venerable members of Mahavihara didn't completely agree with
                                  Vimuttimagga, they evidently didn't bother very much to preserve it.

                                  Best wishes,
                                  Dimitry
                                • dhammanando_bhikkhu
                                  Dear Robert, ... But the grammar of the passage doesn t seem to support this reading. Nekkhama is the subject of the sentence (see translation below). Nekkhama
                                  Message 16 of 21 , Jun 27, 2004
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Dear Robert,

                                    Robert wrote:

                                    > In the case of the passage in the Patisambhidhimagga it is by
                                    > patience (khanti), as it becomes powerful (khanti-bala) that one
                                    > abandons sense desires (nekkhama) and finally abandons all
                                    > defilements. At least that is how I read the passage.

                                    But the grammar of the passage doesn't seem to support this
                                    reading. Nekkhama is the subject of the sentence (see translation
                                    below). Nekkhama is what does the 'khamati-ing' (however you want
                                    to translate this verb). Its power to do so is khantibala and is
                                    a consequence (not a cause) of the abandoning of kaamacchanda.


                                    > I guess one can read it in other ways - but why, when it is
                                    > already made clear by the ancient commentary?

                                    That the Commentary (as we have it) is in error on this point
                                    cannot reasonably be doubted. However, since the error is a very
                                    clumsy and obvious one I doubt it is from Ven. Mahaanaama
                                    himself. It's more the sort of error that would arise from a
                                    copyist's oversight.

                                    The most common commentarial glosses on the verb 'khamati' are
                                    'assent to' or 'prefer' (roceti), 'be assented to' (rucceti), and
                                    'endure' (adhivaasati). From these we get the nouns 'rocana',
                                    'ruccana' and 'adhivaasana' which are used as glosses for
                                    'khanti'. Leaving aside rocana, the two other glosses represent
                                    entirely separate and mutually exclusive uses of the term. If the
                                    object of the verb is something superior to be preferred over
                                    something inferior, then the commentator will gloss 'khamati' as
                                    'ruccati'. If it is something painful to be endured then he will
                                    use 'adhivaasati'. Likewise with the nouns derived from these
                                    verbs.

                                    In the Balakathaava.n.nanaa, Mahaanaama begins his account of
                                    'khantibala' by glossing the verb 'khamati' as 'ruccati':

                                    'Khamatii' ti tassa yogissa khamati ruccati.

                                    but then a few paragraphs later he inexplicably switches to
                                    'adhivaasana':

                                    Dukkhamaana.m adhivaasana.m 'khantibala.m'.

                                    I suspect this discrepancy is the result of a scribe who had
                                    the 'endurance' definition of 'khanti' fixed in his memory and
                                    wrote it out unthinkingly without carefully checking with the
                                    manuscript he was working from. But whatever the case, one of the
                                    two glosses given above is out of place. To determine which it
                                    is, let's examine the Pa.tisam. passage he is commenting on. I
                                    will take the example of the first jhaana, but leave the verb
                                    'khamati' and the noun 'khanti' untranslated for now:

                                    Niivara.naana.m pahiinattaa pa.thama.m jhaana.m khamatii ti
                                    'khantibala.m'

                                    niivara.naana.m: of the hindrances (gen. pl.)

                                    pahiinattaa: because of the state of having been abandoned
                                    (causal ablative of pahiinattaa, from pahiina, pass. pp. of
                                    pajahati + suffix taa)

                                    pa.thama.m jhaana.m: first jhaana (nom. sg)

                                    khamati: it khamati-s (pr ind 3rd per sg.)

                                    iti: thus (indecl.)

                                    khantibala.m: power that is khanti (nom. sg.)

                                    Translation:

                                    "On account of the hindrances having been abandoned, the first
                                    jhaana khamati-s; such is the 'power of khanti'."

                                    (Note: Nyanamoli seems to have been translating from the
                                    Sinhalese Pali edition in which the list has been greatly
                                    abridged. He errs in supposing each item to be an accusative
                                    object of khamati. In fact they are all nominative, as can be
                                    seen from 'aalokasa––aa' and 'abyaapaado' in the Burmese
                                    and Thai editions.)

                                    So, according to this passage it is the first jhaana that
                                    khamati-s as a result of the abandoning of the hindrances.

                                    If 'khamati' were being used in the sense of 'endure' there would
                                    have to be an object such as heat, wind, mosquitoes, harsh words
                                    or some other unpleasant thing. 'Khamati' in the sense of
                                    'endure' is never used without specifying what it is that one is
                                    enduring (in contrast with satati and adhivaasati, which can be
                                    used as intransitive verbs, simply denoting a capacity to endure).
                                    But there is no accusative noun in the above sentence. It would
                                    therefore seem that we must take 'khamati' as meaning 'ruccati',
                                    not 'adhivaasati', and 'khanti' as 'ruccanam', not 'adhivaasana.m'.

                                    "On account of the hindrances having been abandoned, the first
                                    jhaana is assented to (preferred, chosen); such is the 'power
                                    of assenting'."

                                    Best wishes,

                                    Dhammanando
                                  • nina van gorkom
                                    Venerable Bhante , dear Dimitri, Robert and friends, respectfully butting in. ... Rob: In the case of the passage in the Patisambhidhimagga it is by ... Nina:
                                    Message 17 of 21 , Jun 27, 2004
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      Venerable Bhante , dear Dimitri, Robert and friends,
                                      respectfully butting in.

                                      op 27-06-2004 11:13 schreef rjkjp1 op rjkjp1@...:

                                      > --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "dhammanando_bhikkhu"
                                      > <dhammanando@c...> wrote:
                                      >>
                                      >> Robert wrote:
                                      >>
                                      >>> The pali is khantibala - and the commentary says "this is the
                                      >>> enduring of things hard to bear" .ie. patience.
                                      >>> As you say the English translator rejects this and uses the
                                      >>> word 'choice' for khanti. ("Choice power")
                                      >>> I see no reason to think the English translator is right in his
                                      >>> rejection of the Theravada tradition on this point.
                                      >>
                                      > ____________________________________________________________________
                                      >Bhante: I would prefer 'assent' or 'acquiescence' rather than Nyanamoli's
                                      >> 'choice', but I think he is correct in rejecting the commentator's
                                      >> interpretation of khantibala here.
                                      >
                                      Rob: In the case of the passage in the Patisambhidhimagga it is by
                                      > patience (khanti), as it becomes powerful (khanti-bala) that one
                                      > abandons sense desires (nekkhama) and finally abandons all
                                      > defilements. At least that is how I read the passage. I guess one
                                      > can read it in other ways - but why, when it is already made clear
                                      > by the ancient commentary?
                                      Nina: Can the following be of any help?
                                      Khanti: I am thinking of the Bodhisatta: khanti parami, and khanti as the
                                      highest ascetism, Dhammapada. Often the thought of heroic comes to my mind.
                                      In some instances it can mean acquiescence, as Bhikkhu Bodhi explains: there
                                      are things we cannot realize but we accept them in faith. Patience involved
                                      here. I fell over the word choice.
                                      But khanti bala: it must become powerful endurance to realize such states.
                                      Endurance, endless patience to develop the Path. For aeons.
                                      Nina.
                                    • rjkjp1
                                      ... ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ In ... +++++++++++++++++++++++ Dear Venerable Dhammanando, You certainly know far more about
                                      Message 18 of 21 , Jun 28, 2004
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        ---


                                        ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

                                        In
                                        >
                                        > If 'khamati' were being used in the sense of 'endure' there would
                                        > have to be an object such as heat, wind, mosquitoes, harsh words
                                        > or some other unpleasant thing. 'Khamati' in the sense of
                                        > 'endure' is never used without specifying what it is that one is
                                        > enduring (in contrast with satati and adhivaasati, which can be
                                        > used as intransitive verbs, simply denoting a capacity to endure).
                                        > But there is no accusative noun in the above sentence. It would
                                        > therefore seem that we must take 'khamati' as meaning 'ruccati',
                                        > not 'adhivaasati', and 'khanti' as 'ruccanam', not 'adhivaasana.m'.
                                        >
                                        > "On account of the hindrances having been abandoned, the first
                                        > jhaana is assented to (preferred, chosen); such is the 'power
                                        > of assenting'."
                                        >
                                        +++++++++++++++++++++++
                                        Dear Venerable Dhammanando,
                                        You certainly know far more about Pali grammar than me, but I still
                                        wonder about this.
                                        Does the word dukkhama apply only to painful feeling or can it have
                                        a wider meaning at times? I tend to think khanti is not only for
                                        difficult aspects of life but there should be development of khanti
                                        even for the most pleasant and sublime feelings so that these are
                                        not grasped at. One endures even such feelings with khanti and
                                        detachment. Or there is khanti towards all objects through the eye,
                                        ear etc- whether they be desirable or undesirable. The commentary
                                        can be terse at times and not spell it all out.
                                        This is an aspect of Khanti- enduring the pleasant as well as the
                                        unpleasant- my teacher in thailand sometimes mentions.
                                        With respect
                                        Robert
                                      • dhammanando@csloxinfo.com
                                        Dear Robert, ... Dh: In the Pa.tisambhidaamagga-ga.n.thipadatthava.n.nanaa the du- in dukkhamaana.m is understood to be du in the sense of kicchena ( with
                                        Message 19 of 21 , Jun 30, 2004
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          Dear Robert,

                                          R:
                                          > Dear Venerable Dhammanando,
                                          > You certainly know far more about Pali grammar than me, but I still
                                          > wonder about this.
                                          > Does the word dukkhama apply only to painful feeling or can it have
                                          > a wider meaning at times?

                                          Dh:
                                          In the Pa.tisambhidaamagga-ga.n.thipadatthava.n.nanaa the 'du-'
                                          in dukkhamaana.m is understood to be du in the sense of kicchena
                                          ('with difficulty'):

                                          Dukkhamaanan' ti kicchena khamitabbaana.m atisiitaadiina.m
                                          naama.m

                                          "'Of things hard to endure' is a name for those things endured
                                          with difficulty, beginning with extreme cold."

                                          The allusion is to the list given in the Sabbaasava Sutta (MN 2)
                                          of aasavas to be abandoned by endurance. There are no pleasant
                                          things in this list. Extending the list of things to be endured
                                          to include pleasant things would be to divest the word
                                          'endurance' of any meaning. It would be like that Monty Python
                                          sketch where the officers of the Spanish Inquisition 'torture'
                                          suspected heretics by making them sit in comfy armchairs, poking
                                          them with soft cushions and serving them tea at eleven. It just
                                          isn't torture.

                                          > I tend to think khanti is not only for difficult aspects of life
                                          > but there should be development of khanti even for the most
                                          > pleasant and sublime feelings so that these are not grasped at.
                                          > One endures even such feelings with khanti and detachment. Or
                                          > there is khanti towards all objects through the eye, ear etc-
                                          > whether they be desirable or undesirable. The commentary can be
                                          > terse at times and not spell it all out. This is an aspect of
                                          > Khanti- enduring the pleasant as well as the unpleasant- my
                                          > teacher in thailand sometimes mentions.

                                          But doesn't this amount to a conflation of khanti with upekkhaa?

                                          Take the case of a sage being sawn to pieces by bandits. As I
                                          understand it, it is by mettaa that there would arise no thought
                                          of hatred towards his torturers, and by upekkhaa that he is
                                          indifferent to the pain. And khanti, I suppose, would be his
                                          ability to just lie still if there is no possibility of his
                                          getting free.

                                          Applying this to the case of a man undergoing a very pleasurable
                                          experience, I can see that he might be able to regard the
                                          experience with upekkhaa, but what would it mean to say that he
                                          has khanti in this situation? How would a man with khanti
                                          enjoying oysters differ from one enjoying oysters without khanti?

                                          Best wishes,

                                          Dhammanando
                                        • rjkjp1
                                          ... aspects of life ... Venerable Dhammanando: But doesn t this amount to a conflation of khanti with upekkhaa? ... Dear Venerable Dhammanando, I was able to
                                          Message 20 of 21 , Jun 30, 2004
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, dhammanando@c... wrote:
                                            > Robert;> > I tend to think khanti is not only for difficult
                                            aspects of life
                                            > > but there should be development of khanti even for the most
                                            > > pleasant and sublime feelings so that these are not grasped at.
                                            > > One endures even such feelings with khanti and detachment. Or
                                            > > there is khanti towards all objects through the eye, ear etc-
                                            > > whether they be desirable or undesirable. The commentary can be
                                            > > terse at times and not spell it all out. This is an aspect of
                                            > > Khanti- enduring the pleasant as well as the unpleasant- my
                                            > > teacher in thailand sometimes mentions.
                                            > +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
                                            Venerable Dhammanando: But doesn't this amount to a conflation of
                                            khanti with upekkhaa?
                                            >
                                            > Take the case of a sage being sawn to pieces by bandits. As I
                                            > understand it, it is by mettaa that there would arise no thought
                                            > of hatred towards his torturers, and by upekkhaa that he is
                                            > indifferent to the pain. And khanti, I suppose, would be his
                                            > ability to just lie still if there is no possibility of his
                                            > getting free.
                                            >
                                            > Applying this to the case of a man undergoing a very pleasurable
                                            > experience, I can see that he might be able to regard the
                                            > experience with upekkhaa, but what would it mean to say that he
                                            > has khanti in this situation? How would a man with khanti
                                            > enjoying oysters differ from one enjoying oysters without khanti?
                                            >
                                            >++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
                                            Dear Venerable Dhammanando,
                                            I was able to find one reference where khanti is defined as both
                                            acceptance (or endurance) of bothe the desirable and undedesirable.
                                            It is in Dhammapala's commentary to the Cariyapitaka:
                                            http://www.abhidhamma.org/Paramis-%20perfections%20of%20insight.htm
                                            "Patience[khanti] has the characteristic of acceptance; its function
                                            is to endure the desirable and undesirable; its manifestation is
                                            tolerance or non-opposition; seeing things as they really are is its
                                            proximate cause."

                                            I think in your example the man who has developed khanti towards the
                                            taste of oysters would be calm whether they had good or bad taste.
                                            The one who hadn't developed khanti would eat with akusala citta
                                            (either with greed or aversion) but the khanti man would have
                                            neither greed or aversion.
                                            with respect
                                            Robert
                                          • nina van gorkom
                                            Venerable Bhante Dhammanando, ... N: I like to note the proximate cause: insight. The development of paññaa is ciira kala bhaavana, it takes endless
                                            Message 21 of 21 , Jul 4 7:14 AM
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              Venerable Bhante Dhammanando,
                                              Rober wrote:
                                              > I was able to find one reference where khanti is defined as both
                                              > acceptance (or endurance) of bothe the desirable and undedesirable.
                                              > It is in Dhammapala's commentary to the Cariyapitaka:
                                              > http://www.abhidhamma.org/Paramis-%20perfections%20of%20insight.htm
                                              > "Patience[khanti] has the characteristic of acceptance; its function
                                              > is to endure the desirable and undesirable; its manifestation is
                                              > tolerance or non-opposition; seeing things as they really are is its
                                              > proximate cause."
                                              N: I like to note the proximate cause: insight. The development of paññaa is
                                              ciira kala bhaavana, it takes endless patience. This is an aspect of
                                              patience that, as I see it, is very important. Thus, there is far more to it
                                              than adhivasana. But even enduring heat and cold is with developed paññaa.
                                              All objects are just nama and rupa, one does not mind what object impinges.
                                              You mention upekkhaa, but I think also patience is necessary to reach such
                                              equanimity. I like the text: patience is the highest ascetism. As to jhaana:
                                              a great deal of patience is required. Also maintaining jhaana, developing
                                              all the vasiis, and taking care that jhaana does not decline. We need
                                              patience in the study of Dhamma, to listen to it, to investigate it, to
                                              develop vipassanaa in whatever situation.
                                              Nina.
                                            Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.