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Thanissaro version different : Re: [nsbb] Fare lonely as rhinoceros

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  • frank kuan
    Ok, found out who translated that passage: Here s a question for you guys. The thanissaro version is different, and it doesn t make sense (with the indian
    Message 1 of 7 , Sep 30, 2001
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      Ok, found out who translated that passage:

      Here's a question for you guys. The thanissaro version
      is different, and it doesn't make sense (with the
      indian rhino having one horn compared to other
      rhinos). I did a little bit of research into rhinos,
      and they do indeed live a solitary lifestyle, only the
      mother and child having a bond. What's the full story
      behind the horn thing?

      I have excerpts from both versions for you to compare.

      -fk

      ================================
      (from access to insight)
      Translator's note: The Indian rhinoceros, unlike the
      African, has only one horn. Hence the recurrent image
      here. As noted under I.1, there is evidence suggesting
      that the verses here were originally separate poems,
      composed on separate occasions, and that they have
      been gathered together because of their common
      refrain.]
      --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

      Renouncing violence
      for all living beings,
      harming not even a one,
      you would not wish for offspring,
      so how a companion?
      Wander alone, a rhinoceros horn.

      =====================================
      Selected verses of the Rhinoceros Sutta from "Woven
      Cadences" (Sutta Nipata), translated by E. M. Hare,
      and published in Sacred Books of the Buddhists Series
      by the Pali Text Society. Other verses are used in
      this booklet.


      Verses for Thudong-faring
      From the Sutta-Nipata

      Put by the rod for all that lives,
      Nor harm thou anyone thereof;
      Long not for son -- how then for friend?
      Fare lonely as rhinoceros.

      Love cometh from companionship;
      In wake of love upsurges ill;
      Seeing the bane that comes of love,
      Fare lonely as rhinoceros.
      In ruth for all his bosom friends,
      A man, heart-chained, neglects the goal;
      Seeing this fear in fellowship,
      Fare lonely as rhinoceros.

      Tangled as crowding bamboo boughs
      Is fond regard for sons and wife:
      As the tall tops are tangle-free,
      Fare lonely as rhinoceros.
      The deer untethered roams the wild
      Whithersoe'er it lists for food:
      Seeing the liberty, wise man,
      Fare lonely as rhinoceros.


      Casting aside the household gear,
      As sheds the coral-tree its leaves,
      With home-ties cut, and vigorous,
      Fare lonely as rhinoceros.
      Seek for thy friend[1] the deeply learned,
      Dhamma-endued, lucid and great;
      Knowing the needs, expelling doubt,
      Fare lonely as rhinoceros.


      The heat and cold, and hunger, thirst,
      Wind, sun-beat, sting of gadfly, snake:
      Surmounting one and all of these,
      Fare lonely as rhinoceros.
      Crave not for tastes, but free of greed,
      Moving with measured step from house
      To house, support of none, none's thrall,
      Fare lonely as rhinoceros.


      Free everywhere, at odds with none,
      And well content with this and that:
      Enduring dangers undismayed,
      Fare lonely as rhinoceros.
      Snap thou the fetters as the snare
      By river denizen is broke:
      As fire to waste comes back no more,
      Fare lonely as rhinoceros.


      And turn thy back on joys and pains,
      Delights and sorrows known of old;
      And gaining poise and calm, and cleansed,
      Fare lonely as rhinoceros.
      Neglect thou not to muse apart,
      'Mid things by Dhamma-faring aye;
      Alive to all becomings' bane,
      Fare lonely as rhinoceros.


      As lion, mighty-jawed and king
      Of beasts, fares conquering, so thou,
      Taking thy bed and seat remote,
      Fare lonely as rhinoceros.
      Poise, amity, ruth and release
      Pursue, and timely sympathy;
      At odds with none in all the world,
      Fare lonely as rhinoceros.

      Leaving the vanities of view,
      Right method won, the Way obtained:
      "I know! No other is my guide!"
      Fare lonely as rhinoceros.






      __________________________________________________
      Do You Yahoo!?
      Listen to your Yahoo! Mail messages from any phone.
      http://phone.yahoo.com
    • Robert Didham
      There is actually a huge literature on this - a good starting point is Richard Solomon s book: Salomon, Richard, 2000 A Gândhârî Version of the Rhinoceros
      Message 2 of 7 , Sep 30, 2001
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        There is actually a huge literature on this - a good starting point is
        Richard Solomon's book:

        Salomon, Richard, 2000 A G�ndh�r� Version of the Rhinoceros S�tra.
        Seattle, Washington University Press

        A bit like the problem of exactly what a ham.sa is - there are as many
        arguments one way as the other.

        Robert Didham




        >From: frank kuan <fcckuan@...>
        >Reply-To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
        >To: nsbb@yahoogroups.com, pali@yahoogroups.com
        >Subject: [Pali] Thanissaro version different : Re: [nsbb] Fare lonely as
        >rhinoceros
        >Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 17:10:07 -0700 (PDT)
        >
        >Ok, found out who translated that passage:
        >
        >Here's a question for you guys. The thanissaro version
        >is different, and it doesn't make sense (with the
        >indian rhino having one horn compared to other
        >rhinos). I did a little bit of research into rhinos,
        >and they do indeed live a solitary lifestyle, only the
        >mother and child having a bond. What's the full story
        >behind the horn thing?
        >
        >I have excerpts from both versions for you to compare.
        >
        >-fk
        >
        >================================
        >(from access to insight)
        >Translator's note: The Indian rhinoceros, unlike the
        >African, has only one horn. Hence the recurrent image
        >here. As noted under I.1, there is evidence suggesting
        >that the verses here were originally separate poems,
        >composed on separate occasions, and that they have
        >been gathered together because of their common
        >refrain.]
        >--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
        >
        >Renouncing violence
        >for all living beings,
        >harming not even a one,
        >you would not wish for offspring,
        > so how a companion?
        >Wander alone, a rhinoceros horn.
        >
        >=====================================
        >Selected verses of the Rhinoceros Sutta from "Woven
        >Cadences" (Sutta Nipata), translated by E. M. Hare,
        >and published in Sacred Books of the Buddhists Series
        >by the Pali Text Society. Other verses are used in
        >this booklet.
        >
        >
        >Verses for Thudong-faring
        >From the Sutta-Nipata
        >
        >Put by the rod for all that lives,
        >Nor harm thou anyone thereof;
        >Long not for son -- how then for friend?
        >Fare lonely as rhinoceros.
        >
        >Love cometh from companionship;
        >In wake of love upsurges ill;
        >Seeing the bane that comes of love,
        >Fare lonely as rhinoceros.
        >In ruth for all his bosom friends,
        >A man, heart-chained, neglects the goal;
        >Seeing this fear in fellowship,
        >Fare lonely as rhinoceros.
        >
        >Tangled as crowding bamboo boughs
        >Is fond regard for sons and wife:
        >As the tall tops are tangle-free,
        >Fare lonely as rhinoceros.
        >The deer untethered roams the wild
        >Whithersoe'er it lists for food:
        >Seeing the liberty, wise man,
        >Fare lonely as rhinoceros.
        >
        >
        >Casting aside the household gear,
        >As sheds the coral-tree its leaves,
        >With home-ties cut, and vigorous,
        >Fare lonely as rhinoceros.
        >Seek for thy friend[1] the deeply learned,
        >Dhamma-endued, lucid and great;
        >Knowing the needs, expelling doubt,
        >Fare lonely as rhinoceros.
        >
        >
        >The heat and cold, and hunger, thirst,
        >Wind, sun-beat, sting of gadfly, snake:
        >Surmounting one and all of these,
        >Fare lonely as rhinoceros.
        >Crave not for tastes, but free of greed,
        >Moving with measured step from house
        >To house, support of none, none's thrall,
        >Fare lonely as rhinoceros.
        >
        >
        >Free everywhere, at odds with none,
        >And well content with this and that:
        >Enduring dangers undismayed,
        >Fare lonely as rhinoceros.
        >Snap thou the fetters as the snare
        >By river denizen is broke:
        >As fire to waste comes back no more,
        >Fare lonely as rhinoceros.
        >
        >
        >And turn thy back on joys and pains,
        >Delights and sorrows known of old;
        >And gaining poise and calm, and cleansed,
        >Fare lonely as rhinoceros.
        >Neglect thou not to muse apart,
        >'Mid things by Dhamma-faring aye;
        >Alive to all becomings' bane,
        >Fare lonely as rhinoceros.
        >
        >
        >As lion, mighty-jawed and king
        >Of beasts, fares conquering, so thou,
        >Taking thy bed and seat remote,
        >Fare lonely as rhinoceros.
        >Poise, amity, ruth and release
        >Pursue, and timely sympathy;
        >At odds with none in all the world,
        >Fare lonely as rhinoceros.
        >
        >Leaving the vanities of view,
        >Right method won, the Way obtained:
        >"I know! No other is my guide!"
        >Fare lonely as rhinoceros.
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >__________________________________________________
        >Do You Yahoo!?
        >Listen to your Yahoo! Mail messages from any phone.
        >http://phone.yahoo.com


        _________________________________________________________________
        Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
      • frank kuan
        Thanks for the tip Robert. Do you have a personal opinion on what you think it is? Horn or the Rhino? -fk ...
        Message 3 of 7 , Sep 30, 2001
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          Thanks for the tip Robert.
          Do you have a personal opinion on what you think it
          is? Horn or the Rhino?

          -fk

          --- Robert Didham <robertdidham@...> wrote:
          > There is actually a huge literature on this - a good
          > starting point is
          > Richard Solomon's book:
          >
          > Salomon, Richard, 2000 A G�ndh�r� Version of the
          > Rhinoceros S�tra.
          > Seattle, Washington University Press
          >
          > A bit like the problem of exactly what a ham.sa is -
          > there are as many
          > arguments one way as the other.
          >
          > Robert Didham
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > >From: frank kuan <fcckuan@...>
          > >Reply-To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
          > >To: nsbb@yahoogroups.com, pali@yahoogroups.com
          > >Subject: [Pali] Thanissaro version different : Re:
          > [nsbb] Fare lonely as
          > >rhinoceros
          > >Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 17:10:07 -0700 (PDT)
          > >
          > >Ok, found out who translated that passage:
          > >
          > >Here's a question for you guys. The thanissaro
          > version
          > >is different, and it doesn't make sense (with the
          > >indian rhino having one horn compared to other
          > >rhinos). I did a little bit of research into
          > rhinos,
          > >and they do indeed live a solitary lifestyle, only
          > the
          > >mother and child having a bond. What's the full
          > story
          > >behind the horn thing?
          > >
          > >I have excerpts from both versions for you to
          > compare.
          > >
          > >-fk
          > >
          > >================================
          > >(from access to insight)
          > >Translator's note: The Indian rhinoceros, unlike
          > the
          > >African, has only one horn. Hence the recurrent
          > image
          > >here. As noted under I.1, there is evidence
          > suggesting
          > >that the verses here were originally separate
          > poems,
          > >composed on separate occasions, and that they have
          > >been gathered together because of their common
          > >refrain.]
          >
          >--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
          > >
          > >Renouncing violence
          > >for all living beings,
          > >harming not even a one,
          > >you would not wish for offspring,
          > > so how a companion?
          > >Wander alone, a rhinoceros horn.
          > >
          > >=====================================
          > >Selected verses of the Rhinoceros Sutta from "Woven
          > >Cadences" (Sutta Nipata), translated by E. M. Hare,
          > >and published in Sacred Books of the Buddhists
          > Series
          > >by the Pali Text Society. Other verses are used in
          > >this booklet.
          > >
          > >
          > >Verses for Thudong-faring
          > >From the Sutta-Nipata
          > >
          > >Put by the rod for all that lives,
          > >Nor harm thou anyone thereof;
          > >Long not for son -- how then for friend?
          > >Fare lonely as rhinoceros.
          > >
          > >Love cometh from companionship;
          > >In wake of love upsurges ill;
          > >Seeing the bane that comes of love,
          > >Fare lonely as rhinoceros.
          > >In ruth for all his bosom friends,
          > >A man, heart-chained, neglects the goal;
          > >Seeing this fear in fellowship,
          > >Fare lonely as rhinoceros.
          > >
          > >Tangled as crowding bamboo boughs
          > >Is fond regard for sons and wife:
          > >As the tall tops are tangle-free,
          > >Fare lonely as rhinoceros.
          > >The deer untethered roams the wild
          > >Whithersoe'er it lists for food:
          > >Seeing the liberty, wise man,
          > >Fare lonely as rhinoceros.
          > >
          > >
          > >Casting aside the household gear,
          > >As sheds the coral-tree its leaves,
          > >With home-ties cut, and vigorous,
          > >Fare lonely as rhinoceros.
          > >Seek for thy friend[1] the deeply learned,
          > >Dhamma-endued, lucid and great;
          > >Knowing the needs, expelling doubt,
          > >Fare lonely as rhinoceros.
          > >
          > >
          > >The heat and cold, and hunger, thirst,
          > >Wind, sun-beat, sting of gadfly, snake:
          > >Surmounting one and all of these,
          > >Fare lonely as rhinoceros.
          > >Crave not for tastes, but free of greed,
          > >Moving with measured step from house
          > >To house, support of none, none's thrall,
          > >Fare lonely as rhinoceros.
          > >
          > >
          > >Free everywhere, at odds with none,
          > >And well content with this and that:
          > >Enduring dangers undismayed,
          > >Fare lonely as rhinoceros.
          > >Snap thou the fetters as the snare
          > >By river denizen is broke:
          > >As fire to waste comes back no more,
          > >Fare lonely as rhinoceros.
          > >
          > >
          > >And turn thy back on joys and pains,
          > >Delights and sorrows known of old;
          > >And gaining poise and calm, and cleansed,
          > >Fare lonely as rhinoceros.
          > >Neglect thou not to muse apart,
          > >'Mid things by Dhamma-faring aye;
          > >Alive to all becomings' bane,
          > >Fare lonely as rhinoceros.
          > >
          > >
          > >As lion, mighty-jawed and king
          > >Of beasts, fares conquering, so thou,
          > >Taking thy bed and seat remote,
          > >Fare lonely as rhinoceros.
          > >Poise, amity, ruth and release
          > >Pursue, and timely sympathy;
          > >At odds with none in all the world,
          > >Fare lonely as rhinoceros.
          > >
          > >Leaving the vanities of view,
          > >Right method won, the Way obtained:
          > >"I know! No other is my guide!"
          > >Fare lonely as rhinoceros.
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >__________________________________________________
          > >Do You Yahoo!?
          > >Listen to your Yahoo! Mail messages from any phone.
          > >http://phone.yahoo.com
          >
          >
          >
          _________________________________________________________________
          > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at
          > http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
          >
          >
          > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
          >
          > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
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          > [Homepage] http://www.tipitaka.net/pali
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          >
          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
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        • Robert Didham
          Hi Frank Haven t really made up my mind. I prefer the idea of the isolation of the tip of the single horn as the rhino makes its way through the tall grass
          Message 4 of 7 , Oct 2, 2001
          • 0 Attachment
            Hi Frank

            Haven't really made up my mind. I prefer the idea of the isolation of the
            tip of the single horn as the rhino makes its way through the tall grass
            where rhinos seem to like to hang out, but then I can see the idea of the
            solitariness of the rhino as an attractive alternative interpretation.
            Equally I can't make up my mind whether the texts themselves (rather than
            what we would like them to say - and in so far as the various versions may
            or may not be consistent) actually refer to just the horn or the whole
            animal. What do you think?

            Robert

            >From: frank kuan <fcckuan@...>
            >Reply-To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
            >To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
            >Subject: Re: [Pali] Thanissaro version different : Re: [nsbb] Fare lonely
            >as rhinoceros
            >Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 22:04:13 -0700 (PDT)
            >
            >Thanks for the tip Robert.
            >Do you have a personal opinion on what you think it
            >is? Horn or the Rhino?
            >
            >-fk
            >
            >--- Robert Didham <robertdidham@...> wrote:
            > > There is actually a huge literature on this - a good
            > > starting point is
            > > Richard Solomon's book:
            > >
            > > Salomon, Richard, 2000 A G�ndh�r� Version of the
            > > Rhinoceros S�tra.
            > > Seattle, Washington University Press
            > >
            > > A bit like the problem of exactly what a ham.sa is -
            > > there are as many
            > > arguments one way as the other.
            > >
            > > Robert Didham
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > >From: frank kuan <fcckuan@...>
            > > >Reply-To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
            > > >To: nsbb@yahoogroups.com, pali@yahoogroups.com
            > > >Subject: [Pali] Thanissaro version different : Re:
            > > [nsbb] Fare lonely as
            > > >rhinoceros
            > > >Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 17:10:07 -0700 (PDT)
            > > >
            > > >Ok, found out who translated that passage:
            > > >
            > > >Here's a question for you guys. The thanissaro
            > > version
            > > >is different, and it doesn't make sense (with the
            > > >indian rhino having one horn compared to other
            > > >rhinos). I did a little bit of research into
            > > rhinos,
            > > >and they do indeed live a solitary lifestyle, only
            > > the
            > > >mother and child having a bond. What's the full
            > > story
            > > >behind the horn thing?
            > > >
            > > >I have excerpts from both versions for you to
            > > compare.
            > > >
            > > >-fk
            > > >
            > > >================================
            > > >(from access to insight)
            > > >Translator's note: The Indian rhinoceros, unlike
            > > the
            > > >African, has only one horn. Hence the recurrent
            > > image
            > > >here. As noted under I.1, there is evidence
            > > suggesting
            > > >that the verses here were originally separate
            > > poems,
            > > >composed on separate occasions, and that they have
            > > >been gathered together because of their common
            > > >refrain.]
            > >
            > >--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
            > > >
            > > >Renouncing violence
            > > >for all living beings,
            > > >harming not even a one,
            > > >you would not wish for offspring,
            > > > so how a companion?
            > > >Wander alone, a rhinoceros horn.
            > > >
            > > >=====================================
            > > >Selected verses of the Rhinoceros Sutta from "Woven
            > > >Cadences" (Sutta Nipata), translated by E. M. Hare,
            > > >and published in Sacred Books of the Buddhists
            > > Series
            > > >by the Pali Text Society. Other verses are used in
            > > >this booklet.
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >Verses for Thudong-faring
            > > >From the Sutta-Nipata
            > > >
            > > >Put by the rod for all that lives,
            > > >Nor harm thou anyone thereof;
            > > >Long not for son -- how then for friend?
            > > >Fare lonely as rhinoceros.
            > > >
            > > >Love cometh from companionship;
            > > >In wake of love upsurges ill;
            > > >Seeing the bane that comes of love,
            > > >Fare lonely as rhinoceros.
            > > >In ruth for all his bosom friends,
            > > >A man, heart-chained, neglects the goal;
            > > >Seeing this fear in fellowship,
            > > >Fare lonely as rhinoceros.
            > > >
            > > >Tangled as crowding bamboo boughs
            > > >Is fond regard for sons and wife:
            > > >As the tall tops are tangle-free,
            > > >Fare lonely as rhinoceros.
            > > >The deer untethered roams the wild
            > > >Whithersoe'er it lists for food:
            > > >Seeing the liberty, wise man,
            > > >Fare lonely as rhinoceros.
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >Casting aside the household gear,
            > > >As sheds the coral-tree its leaves,
            > > >With home-ties cut, and vigorous,
            > > >Fare lonely as rhinoceros.
            > > >Seek for thy friend[1] the deeply learned,
            > > >Dhamma-endued, lucid and great;
            > > >Knowing the needs, expelling doubt,
            > > >Fare lonely as rhinoceros.
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >The heat and cold, and hunger, thirst,
            > > >Wind, sun-beat, sting of gadfly, snake:
            > > >Surmounting one and all of these,
            > > >Fare lonely as rhinoceros.
            > > >Crave not for tastes, but free of greed,
            > > >Moving with measured step from house
            > > >To house, support of none, none's thrall,
            > > >Fare lonely as rhinoceros.
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >Free everywhere, at odds with none,
            > > >And well content with this and that:
            > > >Enduring dangers undismayed,
            > > >Fare lonely as rhinoceros.
            > > >Snap thou the fetters as the snare
            > > >By river denizen is broke:
            > > >As fire to waste comes back no more,
            > > >Fare lonely as rhinoceros.
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >And turn thy back on joys and pains,
            > > >Delights and sorrows known of old;
            > > >And gaining poise and calm, and cleansed,
            > > >Fare lonely as rhinoceros.
            > > >Neglect thou not to muse apart,
            > > >'Mid things by Dhamma-faring aye;
            > > >Alive to all becomings' bane,
            > > >Fare lonely as rhinoceros.
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >As lion, mighty-jawed and king
            > > >Of beasts, fares conquering, so thou,
            > > >Taking thy bed and seat remote,
            > > >Fare lonely as rhinoceros.
            > > >Poise, amity, ruth and release
            > > >Pursue, and timely sympathy;
            > > >At odds with none in all the world,
            > > >Fare lonely as rhinoceros.
            > > >
            > > >Leaving the vanities of view,
            > > >Right method won, the Way obtained:
            > > >"I know! No other is my guide!"
            > > >Fare lonely as rhinoceros.
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >__________________________________________________
            > > >Do You Yahoo!?
            > > >Listen to your Yahoo! Mail messages from any phone.
            > > >http://phone.yahoo.com
            > >
            > >
            > >
            >_________________________________________________________________
            > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at
            > > http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
            > >
            > >
            > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
            > >
            > > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
            > > - - - - -
            > > Yahoo! Groups members can set their delivery options
            > > to daily digest or web only.
            > > [Homepage] http://www.tipitaka.net/pali
            > > [Discussion] http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pali
            > > [Send Message] pali@yahoogroups.com
            > >
            > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
            > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
            > >
            > >
            >
            >
            >__________________________________________________
            >Do You Yahoo!?
            >Listen to your Yahoo! Mail messages from any phone.
            >http://phone.yahoo.com
            >
            >
            >- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
            >Yahoo! Groups members can set their delivery options to daily digest or web
            >only.
            >[Homepage] http://www.tipitaka.net/pali
            >[Discussion] http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pali
            >[Send Message] pali@yahoogroups.com
            >
            >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
            >
            >


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          • frank kuan
            Hi Robert, Somewhere I researched it mentioned that Anguttara or that particular Rhino sutta is probably a collection of verses spoken by the Buddha on many
            Message 5 of 7 , Oct 2, 2001
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              Hi Robert,
              Somewhere I researched it mentioned that Anguttara
              or that particular Rhino sutta is probably a
              collection of verses spoken by the Buddha on many
              occasions, so it seems plausible that he may be
              referring to horn on a few of the verses, but to me
              from the context of most of the verses it seems to
              refer to the solitary lifestyle of the rhino.
              Put it this way: Say the Buddha is giving a
              discourse and he uses the simile with a rhinoceros.
              What are the Bhikkhus going to think?
              (a) "Ah yes, the blessed one is clearly referring to
              the obvious fact that in our native India, the
              indigenous Rhinoceros unicornis has only one horn,
              whereas the Diceros bicornis from Africa, which I have
              never visited before, heard about, seen directly or
              indirectly, has two horns."

              (b) "My life as a monk is difficult sometimes. I miss
              the wife, family, and friends that I left behind. The
              elephants seem to be pretty social animals, traveling
              in herds, yet the rhino, other than the mother and
              calf, choose to live in solitude and they seem to be
              content. Perhaps the blessed one is hinting at
              something."

              -----------------
              I'm inclined to think it's option (b)
              :-)

              -fk






              --- Robert Didham <robertdidham@...> wrote:
              > Hi Frank
              >
              > Haven't really made up my mind. I prefer the idea
              > of the isolation of the
              > tip of the single horn as the rhino makes its way
              > through the tall grass
              > where rhinos seem to like to hang out, but then I
              > can see the idea of the
              > solitariness of the rhino as an attractive
              > alternative interpretation.
              > Equally I can't make up my mind whether the texts
              > themselves (rather than
              > what we would like them to say - and in so far as
              > the various versions may
              > or may not be consistent) actually refer to just the
              > horn or the whole
              > animal. What do you think?
              >
              > Robert
              >
              > >From: frank kuan <fcckuan@...>
              > >Reply-To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
              > >To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
              > >Subject: Re: [Pali] Thanissaro version different :
              > Re: [nsbb] Fare lonely
              > >as rhinoceros
              > >Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 22:04:13 -0700 (PDT)
              > >
              > >Thanks for the tip Robert.
              > >Do you have a personal opinion on what you think it
              > >is? Horn or the Rhino?
              > >
              > >-fk
              > >
              > >--- Robert Didham <robertdidham@...> wrote:
              > > > There is actually a huge literature on this - a
              > good
              > > > starting point is
              > > > Richard Solomon's book:
              > > >
              > > > Salomon, Richard, 2000 A G�ndh�r� Version of
              > the
              > > > Rhinoceros S�tra.
              > > > Seattle, Washington University Press
              > > >
              > > > A bit like the problem of exactly what a ham.sa
              > is -
              > > > there are as many
              > > > arguments one way as the other.
              > > >
              > > > Robert Didham
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > >From: frank kuan <fcckuan@...>
              > > > >Reply-To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
              > > > >To: nsbb@yahoogroups.com, pali@yahoogroups.com
              > > > >Subject: [Pali] Thanissaro version different :
              > Re:
              > > > [nsbb] Fare lonely as
              > > > >rhinoceros
              > > > >Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2001 17:10:07 -0700 (PDT)
              > > > >
              > > > >Ok, found out who translated that passage:
              > > > >
              > > > >Here's a question for you guys. The thanissaro
              > > > version
              > > > >is different, and it doesn't make sense (with
              > the
              > > > >indian rhino having one horn compared to other
              > > > >rhinos). I did a little bit of research into
              > > > rhinos,
              > > > >and they do indeed live a solitary lifestyle,
              > only
              > > > the
              > > > >mother and child having a bond. What's the full
              > > > story
              > > > >behind the horn thing?
              > > > >
              > > > >I have excerpts from both versions for you to
              > > > compare.
              > > > >
              > > > >-fk
              > > > >
              > > > >================================
              > > > >(from access to insight)
              > > > >Translator's note: The Indian rhinoceros,
              > unlike
              > > > the
              > > > >African, has only one horn. Hence the recurrent
              > > > image
              > > > >here. As noted under I.1, there is evidence
              > > > suggesting
              > > > >that the verses here were originally separate
              > > > poems,
              > > > >composed on separate occasions, and that they
              > have
              > > > >been gathered together because of their common
              > > > >refrain.]
              > > >
              > >
              >
              >--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
              > > > >
              > > > >Renouncing violence
              > > > >for all living beings,
              > > > >harming not even a one,
              > > > >you would not wish for offspring,
              > > > > so how a companion?
              > > > >Wander alone, a rhinoceros horn.
              > > > >
              > > > >=====================================
              > > > >Selected verses of the Rhinoceros Sutta from
              > "Woven
              > > > >Cadences" (Sutta Nipata), translated by E. M.
              > Hare,
              > > > >and published in Sacred Books of the Buddhists
              > > > Series
              > > > >by the Pali Text Society. Other verses are used
              > in
              > > > >this booklet.
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >Verses for Thudong-faring
              > > > >From the Sutta-Nipata
              > > > >
              > > > >Put by the rod for all that lives,
              > > > >Nor harm thou anyone thereof;
              > > > >Long not for son -- how then for friend?
              > > > >Fare lonely as rhinoceros.
              > > > >
              > > > >Love cometh from companionship;
              > > > >In wake of love upsurges ill;
              > > > >Seeing the bane that comes of love,
              > > > >Fare lonely as rhinoceros.
              > > > >In ruth for all his bosom friends,
              > > > >A man, heart-chained, neglects the goal;
              > > > >Seeing this fear in fellowship,
              > > > >Fare lonely as rhinoceros.
              > > > >
              > > > >Tangled as crowding bamboo boughs
              > > > >Is fond regard for sons and wife:
              > > > >As the tall tops are tangle-free,
              > > > >Fare lonely as rhinoceros.
              > > > >The deer untethered roams the wild
              > > > >Whithersoe'er it lists for food:
              > > > >Seeing the liberty, wise man,
              > > > >Fare lonely as rhinoceros.
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >Casting aside the household gear,
              > > > >As sheds the coral-tree its leaves,
              > > > >With home-ties cut, and vigorous,
              > > > >Fare lonely as rhinoceros.
              > > > >Seek for thy friend[1] the deeply learned,
              > > > >Dhamma-endued, lucid and great;
              > > > >Knowing the needs, expelling doubt,
              > > > >Fare lonely as rhinoceros.
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >The heat and cold, and hunger, thirst,
              > > > >Wind, sun-beat, sting of gadfly, snake:
              > > > >Surmounting one and all of these,
              > > > >Fare lonely as rhinoceros.
              > > > >Crave not for tastes, but free of greed,
              > > > >Moving with measured step from house
              > > > >To house, support of none, none's thrall,
              > > > >Fare lonely as rhinoceros.
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >Free everywhere, at odds with none,
              > > > >And well content with this and that:
              > > > >Enduring dangers undismayed,
              > > > >Fare lonely as rhinoceros.
              > > > >Snap thou the fetters as the snare
              > > > >By river denizen is broke:
              > > > >As fire to waste comes back no more,
              > > > >Fare lonely as rhinoceros.
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >And turn thy back on joys and pains,
              > > > >Delights and sorrows known of old;
              > > > >And gaining poise and calm, and cleansed,
              > > > >Fare lonely as rhinoceros.
              > > > >Neglect thou not to muse apart,
              > > > >'Mid things by Dhamma-faring aye;
              > > > >Alive to all becomings' bane,
              > > > >Fare lonely as rhinoceros.
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >As lion, mighty-jawed and king
              > > > >Of beasts, fares conquering, so thou,
              > > > >Taking thy bed and seat remote,
              > > > >Fare lonely as rhinoceros.
              > > > >Poise, amity, ruth and release
              > > > >Pursue, and timely sympathy;
              > > > >At odds with none in all the world,
              > > > >Fare lonely as rhinoceros.
              > > > >
              > > > >Leaving the vanities of view,
              > > > >Right method won, the Way obtained:
              >
              === message truncated ===


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            • Robert Eddison
              Could someone enlighten me as to whether there is really any controversy about the translation of these verses? I was not aware that any modern authority had
              Message 6 of 7 , Oct 4, 2001
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                Could someone enlighten me as to whether there is really any controversy
                about the translation of these verses? I was not aware that any modern
                authority had seriously doubted that "wander alone like the horn of a
                rhinoceros" is the correct translation of "eko care khaggavisaa.nakappo",
                and that E.M. Hare's earlier rendering is just plain wrong, even if more
                poetically satisfying for a modern English speaker.

                (more below)

                Frank writes:

                > Somewhere I researched it mentioned that Anguttara
                >or that particular Rhino sutta is probably a
                >collection of verses spoken by the Buddha on many
                >occasions, so it seems plausible that he may be
                >referring to horn on a few of the verses, but to me
                >from the context of most of the verses it seems to
                >refer to the solitary lifestyle of the rhino.
                > Put it this way: Say the Buddha is giving a
                >discourse and he uses the simile with a rhinoceros.
                >What are the Bhikkhus going to think?
                >(a) "Ah yes, the blessed one is clearly referring to
                >the obvious fact that in our native India, the
                >indigenous Rhinoceros unicornis has only one horn,
                >whereas the Diceros bicornis from Africa, which I have
                >never visited before, heard about, seen directly or
                >indirectly, has two horns."
                >
                >(b) "My life as a monk is difficult sometimes. I miss
                >the wife, family, and friends that I left behind. The
                >elephants seem to be pretty social animals, traveling
                >in herds, yet the rhino, other than the mother and
                >calf, choose to live in solitude and they seem to be
                >content. Perhaps the blessed one is hinting at
                >something."
                >
                >-----------------
                >I'm inclined to think it's option (b)
                >:-)

                Of course it's improbable that anyone would have reasoned in the manner
                described in (a). This objection, however, would be irrelevant if it
                happened that the single horn of a rhino was a well-known stock simile in
                that culture. I think there is sufficient evidence that this was the case.
                In particular, one finds the rhinoceros horn simile making a regular
                appearance in Indian hagiographies and texts dealing with renunciation. A
                couple of examples:


                "....his senses were well protected like those of a tortoise; he was single
                and alone like the horn of a rhinoceros; he was free like a bird; he was
                always waking like the fabulous bird Bharundal, valorous like an elephant,
                strong like a bull, difficult to attack like a lion, steady and firm like
                Mount Mandara.....etc. etc.

                (description of Mahavira in the Kalpa Sutra 118, attributed to Sri
                Bhadrabahu, 433-357 BCE.)

                Though the above is a Jaina text, the section from which the extract is
                taken is actually strikingly similar to the Khaggavisaa.na Sutta, albeit
                presented in the form of a description rather than an exhortation.

                The same might be said for the following, this time a Hindu work:

                "Efficient in his undertakings, full of compassion is the saadhu; he gives
                pity to all, has enmity towards no one.

                "He bears patiently heat and cold, seeing the one Self enlightening all
                bodies. He walks solitary as the horn of a rhinoceros. He has become an
                ocean of Truth and is ever engaged in the work of mercy. Such is the
                Avadhut, free from birth and death."

                (Avadhut Giita ch. 7)


                Robert Eddison
              • frank kuan
                Hello Robert E., Thanks for posting the useful references. Can you say more about the stock simile with the horn as it was intended to be commonly understood
                Message 7 of 7 , Oct 4, 2001
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                  Hello Robert E.,
                  Thanks for posting the useful references. Can you
                  say more about the stock simile with the horn as it
                  was intended to be commonly understood in those
                  buddhism, jainism, hinduism? Is it as Robert D. said,
                  with the tip of the single horn sticking out of tall
                  grassy area?
                  Is it just coincidence that the rhinoceros horn was
                  picked to represent the simile of solitude
                  disregarding the lifestyle of the rhino? Or is it
                  possible that the horn is just a bonus simile?

                  -fk



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