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Re: [Pali] Re: over(?)confidence in one's own views

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  • Frank Kuan
    Ven. Pesala, What prompted me to participate on that thread in the first place was two views that I found highly suspect: 1. that attainment of ariya status is
    Message 1 of 8 , Mar 31, 2004
      Ven. Pesala,
      What prompted me to participate on that thread in
      the first place was two views that I found highly
      suspect:
      1. that attainment of ariya status is not possible in
      this dharma ending age so far removed from the
      buddha's lifetime without the assistance of pali canon
      commentaries and abidhamma.
      2. that the commentaries and abidhamma, and even the
      pali canon for that matter, should be given so much
      faith and confidence, before the fruits of 4NT have
      been confirmed through personal realization.

      Any point I made in the post not regarding those two
      points were just me championing ideals that I highly
      esteem, and not meant to be taken as a personal attack
      on everyone else's lack of personal buddhist practice
      beyond book study, as I don't know everyone on the
      list and what their actual daily practice consists of.
      Each one of you including myself have to be our own
      judge of whether our practice (outside of book study)
      lives up to a true follower of the buddha's teaching.

      I srupulously avoided debating the actual authenticity
      or dhammic value of the abidhamma and the commentaries
      on this thread, and truly do not wish to engage in any
      discussion that would not lead to productive results.

      I apologize for any remarks I've made that appear to
      cast aspersions or have an inflammatory tone. My
      operating procedure is to address views and not view
      holders, but one of the inherent flaws of conventional
      language is a tendency to objectify and form divisons
      of I, mine, us, them, and coupled with that our lack
      of anatta realization would lead to hurt feelings.
      Besides those inherent difficulties, I readily
      acknowledge deficiency in proper speech and vow to
      improve.

      Indeed this is a pali list, but I absolutely do not
      see why appreciation of the forest tradition is
      inappropriate for this list, and I will continue to
      extol the virtues of the forest tradition at every
      convenient opportunity.

      -fk


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    • fcckuan
      Apologies for the following non-pali subject matter, this will be quick. A list member suggested to me privately that my original post was much more offensive
      Message 2 of 8 , Mar 31, 2004
        Apologies for the following non-pali subject matter, this will be
        quick. A list member suggested to me privately that my original post
        was much more offensive than even I had suspected, so I have taken
        the measure of removing that post from the archives, and once again
        wanted to extend apologies to all who took offense. Sorry to have
        caused hurt feelings and wasted bandwith. Needless to say, yet I'm
        going to say it anyway, I will try harder to speak with more care in
        the future.

        -fk
      • rett
        ... Hi, I ve enjoyed your posts, and in general I believe it must be okay to have differing views. And as I understand it, meditation is on-topic ... About
        Message 3 of 8 , Mar 31, 2004
          >
          >
          >Indeed this is a pali list, but I absolutely do not
          >see why appreciation of the forest tradition is
          >inappropriate for this list, and I will continue to
          >extol the virtues of the forest tradition at every
          >convenient opportunity.
          >

          Hi,

          I've enjoyed your posts, and in general I believe it must be okay to
          have differing views. And as I understand it, meditation is on-topic
          for this list (point 4 below):

          >Main discussion topics:
          >1. Tipitaka and sutta study
          >2. Pali language and literature
          >3. Theravada Buddhism
          >4. Samatha and Vipassana meditation
          >5. Sutta study tools and methodology
          >6. Tipitaka translation theory and practice

          About studying vs practice in Thailand, I'm not sure about the case
          you're talking about, but it's not uncommon that a forest monk has
          studied the tipitaka very thoroughly in his youth. Sometimes they
          have done 10-12 yrs intensive study, and then take to the forest
          never to open a book again.

          best regards,

          /Rett




          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • christine_forsyth
          Hello Frank, and all, Thought provoking posts Frank. If anyone is interested - there is a 240 page Biography of the Venerable Phra Acharn Mun Bhuridatta
          Message 4 of 8 , Mar 31, 2004
            Hello Frank, and all,

            Thought provoking posts Frank. If anyone is interested - there is a
            240 page Biography of the Venerable Phra Acharn Mun Bhuridatta
            Thera compiled by the Venerable Phra Acharn Maha Boowa
            Nyanasampanno, on-line at:

            http://www.geocities.com/~madg/gangessangha/Ajahn_Mun.pdf

            metta and peace,
            Christine
            ---The trouble is that you think you have time ---

            --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, rett <rett@t...> wrote:
            > >
            > >
            > >Indeed this is a pali list, but I absolutely do not
            > >see why appreciation of the forest tradition is
            > >inappropriate for this list, and I will continue to
            > >extol the virtues of the forest tradition at every
            > >convenient opportunity.
            > >
            >
            > Hi,
            >
            > I've enjoyed your posts, and in general I believe it must be okay
            to
            > have differing views. And as I understand it, meditation is on-
            topic
            > for this list (point 4 below):
            >
            > >Main discussion topics:
            > >1. Tipitaka and sutta study
            > >2. Pali language and literature
            > >3. Theravada Buddhism
            > >4. Samatha and Vipassana meditation
            > >5. Sutta study tools and methodology
            > >6. Tipitaka translation theory and practice
            >
            > About studying vs practice in Thailand, I'm not sure about the case
            > you're talking about, but it's not uncommon that a forest monk has
            > studied the tipitaka very thoroughly in his youth. Sometimes they
            > have done 10-12 yrs intensive study, and then take to the forest
            > never to open a book again.
            >
            > best regards,
            >
            > /Rett
          • nina van gorkom
            Dear Frank Do not worry about it that you hurt feelings. I know you are a very kind and sincere person who does not want to hurt anybody. It does not matter
            Message 5 of 8 , Apr 1, 2004
              Dear Frank
              Do not worry about it that you hurt feelings. I know you are a very kind and
              sincere person who does not want to hurt anybody. It does not matter that we
              have different opinions. We know each other already longer than today, don't
              we? When there are different opinions on a forum I find it useful to
              consider and formulate for myself what my thoughts about it are. It helps to
              clarify things for oneself.
              Nina.

              op 31-03-2004 23:30 schreef fcckuan op fcckuan@...:

              A list member suggested to me privately that my original post
              > was much more offensive than even I had suspected, so I have taken
              > the measure of removing that post from the archives....
            • Benjamin Jerome
              Dear people who know Pali, Could someone please translate the following passage? I tried to translate it but I m not sure if I understand it correctly.
              Message 6 of 8 , Apr 1, 2004
                Dear people who know Pali,

                Could someone please translate the following passage?
                I tried to translate it but I'm not sure if I understand it correctly.


                Seyyathaapi bhikkhave appamattakopi guutho duggandho hoti,
                evameva kho aha.m bhikkhave appamattakampi bhava.m
                na va.n.nemi, antamaso accharaasa.nghaatamattampiiti

                Ben
                ----- Original Message -----
                From: nina van gorkom
                To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Thursday, April 01, 2004 12:13 PM
                Subject: Re: [Pali] Re: over(?)confidence in one's own views


                Dear Frank
                Do not worry about it that you hurt feelings. I know you are a very kind and
                sincere person who does not want to hurt anybody. It does not matter that we
                have different opinions. We know each other already longer than today, don't
                we? When there are different opinions on a forum I find it useful to
                consider and formulate for myself what my thoughts about it are. It helps to
                clarify things for oneself.
                Nina.

                op 31-03-2004 23:30 schreef fcckuan op fcckuan@...:

                A list member suggested to me privately that my original post
                > was much more offensive than even I had suspected, so I have taken
                > the measure of removing that post from the archives....






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              • paulocuana
                Frank, I for one enjoy your posts. I have been reading about Buddhism for years and have only recently begun meditation. The one thing I am convinced of is
                Message 7 of 8 , Apr 1, 2004
                  Frank,

                  I for one enjoy your posts. I have been reading about Buddhism for
                  years and have only recently begun meditation. The one thing I am
                  convinced of is that this stuff is not for the sensitive.

                  Whether it's the Suttas, the Abhidhamma or the Commentaries they are
                  all part of the raft in the "Raft Simile". If one can cross over
                  with only the Suttas that is fine. If one needs the Abhidhamma and
                  the Commentaries to cross over then why would anyone complain?
                  When all these things are to be abandoned what does it matter if a
                  raft or an ocean-going ship is used.

                  pag eva adhammaa
                  MI 134-5

                  Paul O'Cuana


                  --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom <nilo@e...> wrote:
                  > Dear Frank
                  > Do not worry about it that you hurt feelings. I know you are a
                  very kind and
                  > sincere person who does not want to hurt anybody. It does not
                  matter that we
                  > have different opinions. We know each other already longer than
                  today, don't
                  > we? When there are different opinions on a forum I find it useful
                  to
                  > consider and formulate for myself what my thoughts about it are.
                  It helps to
                  > clarify things for oneself.
                  > Nina.
                  >
                  > op 31-03-2004 23:30 schreef fcckuan op fcckuan@y...:
                  >
                  > A list member suggested to me privately that my original post
                  > > was much more offensive than even I had suspected, so I have
                  taken
                  > > the measure of removing that post from the archives....
                • rett
                  ... Here s an attempt: Just as, O monks, even a tiny amount of dung has a foul smell, exactly so, O monks, I do not commend even a tiny amount of existence,
                  Message 8 of 8 , Apr 1, 2004
                    >
                    >Could someone please translate the following passage?
                    >I tried to translate it but I'm not sure if I understand it correctly.
                    >
                    >
                    >Seyyathaapi bhikkhave appamattakopi guutho duggandho hoti,
                    >evameva kho aha.m bhikkhave appamattakampi bhava.m
                    >na va.n.nemi, antamaso accharaasa.nghaatamattampiiti

                    Here's an attempt:

                    Just as, O monks, even a tiny amount of dung has a foul smell,
                    exactly so, O monks, I do not commend even a tiny amount of
                    existence, even only an instant.

                    What threw me for a loop first was that I kept wanting to read
                    *accharaasanga.na = troop of nymphs. Those nymphs got stuck in my
                    mind and kept me from turning the page of the dictionary to find
                    'snap of the fingertips' :-)

                    best regards,

                    /Rett
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