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Re: [Pali] Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] SN: puzzling suttas about monks lying

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  • Aleksey
    Hi all. Vinaya have some rules about delibarate lie. May be a lie for the sake of reputation, fame, and honor is implied something like Parajika 4: 4. Should
    Message 1 of 2 , Sep 5, 2001
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      Hi all.
      Vinaya have some rules about delibarate lie. May be "a lie for the sake of
      reputation, fame, and honor" is implied something like Parajika 4:
      4. Should any bhikkhu, without direct knowledge, boast of a superior human
      state, a truly noble knowledge and vision as present in himself, saying,
      "Thus do I know; thus do I see," such that regardless of whether or not he
      is cross-examined on a later occasion, he -- being remorseful and desirous
      of purification -- might say, "Friends, not knowing, I said I know; not
      seeing, I said I see -- vainly, falsely, idly," unless it was from
      over-estimation, he also is defeated and no longer in communion.(tr. by
      Thanissaro Bhikkhu)
      Best regards
      Aleksey.
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: frank kuan <fcckuan@...>
      To: <dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2001 1:05 AM
      Subject: [Pali] Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] SN: puzzling suttas about monks lying


      > (from dhammastudygroup@ list)
      >
      > Hi Mike,
      >
      > --- "m. nease" <mlnease@...> wrote:
      > > Sorry I can't provide the specific lies mentioned in
      > > this sutta, but monks performing various kinds of
      > > wrong speech and many other shenanigans seems to
      > > have
      > > been fairly commonplace in the Buddha's time (as in
      > > the present time), and often for exactly the reasons
      > you cited from the commentary.
      >
      >
      > It's not that monks of the past, present, and future
      > commit wrong speech and performed other shenanigans
      > that puzzled me. Naturally when the order of monks and
      > nuns grows to a large number, they can't all be
      > Sariputtas and Mogallanas. Sooner or later Curly,
      > Larry, and Moe get ordained, and then you get a long
      > list of rules in vinaya.
      >
      > What really caught my attention was that the sutta
      > said that the monks who were so virtuous that they
      > would not tell a lie to save their mother's life! They
      > commited some kind of lie for the sake of reputation
      > and honor. To resolve these two dissonant statements,
      > I have to conclude that the virtuous monk must be
      > doing some very subtle kind of lying, because they
      > obviously wouldn't tell a blatant lie. That's why I'm
      > so interested to find out exactly what the lie is.
      >
      > -fk
      >
      > --- frank kuan <fcckuan@...> wrote:
      > > There's a section of suttas (repetitive with minor
      > > variations) in Samyutta that goes something like
      > > this:
      > >
      > > Buddha: With my ability to emcompass the minds of
      > > others with my own mind (i.e. mind reading), I
      > > noticed
      > > that one of you virtuous monks in this assembly who
      > > would not tell a deliberate lie for a silver bowl
      > > filled with gold, or tell a lie to save the life of
      > > your own mother, has told a lie for the sake of
      > > reputation, fame, and honor.
      > >
      > > -=======================
      > > Does anyone know SPECIFICS? Like exactly what the
      > > lie
      > > is? From the commentary notes, it looks like the
      > > motivation would be to have fame among lay
      > > supporters
      > > so they could be invited more often and for better
      > > quality of food, robes, offered.
      > >
      > >
      >
      >
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