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Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] SN: puzzling suttas about monks lying

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  • frank kuan
    (from dhammastudygroup@ list) Hi Mike, ... you cited from the commentary. It s not that monks of the past, present, and future commit wrong speech and
    Message 1 of 2 , Sep 4 2:05 PM
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      (from dhammastudygroup@ list)

      Hi Mike,

      --- "m. nease" <mlnease@...> wrote:
      > Sorry I can't provide the specific lies mentioned in
      > this sutta, but monks performing various kinds of
      > wrong speech and many other shenanigans seems to
      > have
      > been fairly commonplace in the Buddha's time (as in
      > the present time), and often for exactly the reasons
      you cited from the commentary.


      It's not that monks of the past, present, and future
      commit wrong speech and performed other shenanigans
      that puzzled me. Naturally when the order of monks and
      nuns grows to a large number, they can't all be
      Sariputtas and Mogallanas. Sooner or later Curly,
      Larry, and Moe get ordained, and then you get a long
      list of rules in vinaya.

      What really caught my attention was that the sutta
      said that the monks who were so virtuous that they
      would not tell a lie to save their mother's life! They
      commited some kind of lie for the sake of reputation
      and honor. To resolve these two dissonant statements,
      I have to conclude that the virtuous monk must be
      doing some very subtle kind of lying, because they
      obviously wouldn't tell a blatant lie. That's why I'm
      so interested to find out exactly what the lie is.

      -fk

      --- frank kuan <fcckuan@...> wrote:
      > There's a section of suttas (repetitive with minor
      > variations) in Samyutta that goes something like
      > this:
      >
      > Buddha: With my ability to emcompass the minds of
      > others with my own mind (i.e. mind reading), I
      > noticed
      > that one of you virtuous monks in this assembly who
      > would not tell a deliberate lie for a silver bowl
      > filled with gold, or tell a lie to save the life of
      > your own mother, has told a lie for the sake of
      > reputation, fame, and honor.
      >
      > -=======================
      > Does anyone know SPECIFICS? Like exactly what the
      > lie
      > is? From the commentary notes, it looks like the
      > motivation would be to have fame among lay
      > supporters
      > so they could be invited more often and for better
      > quality of food, robes, offered.
      >
      >


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    • Aleksey
      Hi all. Vinaya have some rules about delibarate lie. May be a lie for the sake of reputation, fame, and honor is implied something like Parajika 4: 4. Should
      Message 2 of 2 , Sep 5 11:07 AM
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        Hi all.
        Vinaya have some rules about delibarate lie. May be "a lie for the sake of
        reputation, fame, and honor" is implied something like Parajika 4:
        4. Should any bhikkhu, without direct knowledge, boast of a superior human
        state, a truly noble knowledge and vision as present in himself, saying,
        "Thus do I know; thus do I see," such that regardless of whether or not he
        is cross-examined on a later occasion, he -- being remorseful and desirous
        of purification -- might say, "Friends, not knowing, I said I know; not
        seeing, I said I see -- vainly, falsely, idly," unless it was from
        over-estimation, he also is defeated and no longer in communion.(tr. by
        Thanissaro Bhikkhu)
        Best regards
        Aleksey.
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: frank kuan <fcckuan@...>
        To: <dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2001 1:05 AM
        Subject: [Pali] Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] SN: puzzling suttas about monks lying


        > (from dhammastudygroup@ list)
        >
        > Hi Mike,
        >
        > --- "m. nease" <mlnease@...> wrote:
        > > Sorry I can't provide the specific lies mentioned in
        > > this sutta, but monks performing various kinds of
        > > wrong speech and many other shenanigans seems to
        > > have
        > > been fairly commonplace in the Buddha's time (as in
        > > the present time), and often for exactly the reasons
        > you cited from the commentary.
        >
        >
        > It's not that monks of the past, present, and future
        > commit wrong speech and performed other shenanigans
        > that puzzled me. Naturally when the order of monks and
        > nuns grows to a large number, they can't all be
        > Sariputtas and Mogallanas. Sooner or later Curly,
        > Larry, and Moe get ordained, and then you get a long
        > list of rules in vinaya.
        >
        > What really caught my attention was that the sutta
        > said that the monks who were so virtuous that they
        > would not tell a lie to save their mother's life! They
        > commited some kind of lie for the sake of reputation
        > and honor. To resolve these two dissonant statements,
        > I have to conclude that the virtuous monk must be
        > doing some very subtle kind of lying, because they
        > obviously wouldn't tell a blatant lie. That's why I'm
        > so interested to find out exactly what the lie is.
        >
        > -fk
        >
        > --- frank kuan <fcckuan@...> wrote:
        > > There's a section of suttas (repetitive with minor
        > > variations) in Samyutta that goes something like
        > > this:
        > >
        > > Buddha: With my ability to emcompass the minds of
        > > others with my own mind (i.e. mind reading), I
        > > noticed
        > > that one of you virtuous monks in this assembly who
        > > would not tell a deliberate lie for a silver bowl
        > > filled with gold, or tell a lie to save the life of
        > > your own mother, has told a lie for the sake of
        > > reputation, fame, and honor.
        > >
        > > -=======================
        > > Does anyone know SPECIFICS? Like exactly what the
        > > lie
        > > is? From the commentary notes, it looks like the
        > > motivation would be to have fame among lay
        > > supporters
        > > so they could be invited more often and for better
        > > quality of food, robes, offered.
        > >
        > >
        >
        >
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