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SN: puzzling suttas about monks lying

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  • frank kuan
    There s a section of suttas (repetitive with minor variations) in Samyutta that goes something like this: Buddha: With my ability to emcompass the minds of
    Message 1 of 4 , Sep 4, 2001
      There's a section of suttas (repetitive with minor
      variations) in Samyutta that goes something like this:

      Buddha: With my ability to emcompass the minds of
      others with my own mind (i.e. mind reading), I noticed
      that one of you virtuous monks in this assembly who
      would not tell a deliberate lie for a silver bowl
      filled with gold, or tell a lie to save the life of
      your own mother, has told a lie for the sake of
      reputation, fame, and honor.

      -=======================
      Does anyone know SPECIFICS? Like exactly what the lie
      is? From the commentary notes, it looks like the
      motivation would be to have fame among lay supporters
      so they could be invited more often and for better
      quality of food, robes, offered.

      I'm really curious to know exactly what kind of lie,
      and how subtle the lie, and how subtle their
      motivation these monks used in seeking
      fame/honor/reputation.

      I'm short on time at the moment, but if necessary I
      can look up exact page numbers and section numbers in
      the next couple of days.


      -fk



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    • Piya Tan
      Frank, I was quoting this Samyutta passage only couple of months. First, of all, we have to understand the hierarchy of worldly values in the Buddha s
      Message 2 of 4 , Sep 4, 2001
        Frank,

        I was quoting this Samyutta passage only couple of months. First, of all, we have
        to understand the "hierarchy of worldly values" in the Buddha's society. In this
        case, obviously "reputation, fame and honour" are placed higher that a mere piece of
        "silver bowl", definitely even of "a bowl full of rice".

        Secondly, the Buddha is here warning the monks against wrong speech, specifically
        lying for gain (becoming even more sophisticated today!). The Buddha is almost
        sounding a prophetic warning, as it were: paraphrased:

        "You may not live for small trinkets, but I know you might lie for bigger things!"

        P.

        frank kuan wrote:

        > There's a section of suttas (repetitive with minor
        > variations) in Samyutta that goes something like this:
        >
        > Buddha: With my ability to emcompass the minds of
        > others with my own mind (i.e. mind reading), I noticed
        > that one of you virtuous monks in this assembly who
        > would not tell a deliberate lie for a silver bowl
        > filled with gold, or tell a lie to save the life of
        > your own mother, has told a lie for the sake of
        > reputation, fame, and honor.
        >
        > -=======================
        > Does anyone know SPECIFICS? Like exactly what the lie
        > is? From the commentary notes, it looks like the
        > motivation would be to have fame among lay supporters
        > so they could be invited more often and for better
        > quality of food, robes, offered.
        >
        > I'm really curious to know exactly what kind of lie,
        > and how subtle the lie, and how subtle their
        > motivation these monks used in seeking
        > fame/honor/reputation.
        >
        > I'm short on time at the moment, but if necessary I
        > can look up exact page numbers and section numbers in
        > the next couple of days.
        >
        > -fk
        >
        > __________________________________________________
        > Do You Yahoo!?
        > Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger
        > http://im.yahoo.com
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      • Ven. KUMARA Bhikkhu
        Frank, could you be more specific as to where in SN that quotation is found? metta, Ven K ... From: frank kuan To: Frank Kuan
        Message 3 of 4 , Sep 6, 2001
          Frank, could you be more specific as to where in SN that quotation is found?

          metta,
          Ven K

          ----- Original Message -----
          From: frank kuan <fcckuan@...>
          To: Frank Kuan <fcckuan@...>
          Sent: Wednesday, 05 September, 2001 12:22 AM
          Subject: [Pali] SN: puzzling suttas about monks lying


          > There's a section of suttas (repetitive with minor
          > variations) in Samyutta that goes something like this:
          >
          > Buddha: With my ability to emcompass the minds of
          > others with my own mind (i.e. mind reading), I noticed
          > that one of you virtuous monks in this assembly who
          > would not tell a deliberate lie for a silver bowl
          > filled with gold, or tell a lie to save the life of
          > your own mother, has told a lie for the sake of
          > reputation, fame, and honor.
          >
          > -=======================
          > Does anyone know SPECIFICS? Like exactly what the lie
          > is? From the commentary notes, it looks like the
          > motivation would be to have fame among lay supporters
          > so they could be invited more often and for better
          > quality of food, robes, offered.
          >
          > I'm really curious to know exactly what kind of lie,
          > and how subtle the lie, and how subtle their
          > motivation these monks used in seeking
          > fame/honor/reputation.
          >
          > I'm short on time at the moment, but if necessary I
          > can look up exact page numbers and section numbers in
          > the next couple of days.
          >
          >
          > -fk
        • Piya Tan
          Venerable, This is the Laabha,sakkaara Sa.myutta (S 2:233 ff). P.
          Message 4 of 4 , Sep 6, 2001
            Venerable,

            This is the Laabha,sakkaara Sa.myutta (S 2:233 ff).

            P.

            "Ven. KUMARA Bhikkhu" wrote:

            > Frank, could you be more specific as to where in SN that quotation is found?
            >
            > metta,
            > Ven K
            >
            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: frank kuan <fcckuan@...>
            > To: Frank Kuan <fcckuan@...>
            > Sent: Wednesday, 05 September, 2001 12:22 AM
            > Subject: [Pali] SN: puzzling suttas about monks lying
            >
            > > There's a section of suttas (repetitive with minor
            > > variations) in Samyutta that goes something like this:
            > >
            > > Buddha: With my ability to emcompass the minds of
            > > others with my own mind (i.e. mind reading), I noticed
            > > that one of you virtuous monks in this assembly who
            > > would not tell a deliberate lie for a silver bowl
            > > filled with gold, or tell a lie to save the life of
            > > your own mother, has told a lie for the sake of
            > > reputation, fame, and honor.
            > >
            > > -=======================
            > > Does anyone know SPECIFICS? Like exactly what the lie
            > > is? From the commentary notes, it looks like the
            > > motivation would be to have fame among lay supporters
            > > so they could be invited more often and for better
            > > quality of food, robes, offered.
            > >
            > > I'm really curious to know exactly what kind of lie,
            > > and how subtle the lie, and how subtle their
            > > motivation these monks used in seeking
            > > fame/honor/reputation.
            > >
            > > I'm short on time at the moment, but if necessary I
            > > can look up exact page numbers and section numbers in
            > > the next couple of days.
            > >
            > >
            > > -fk
            >
            >
            > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
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            > [Homepage] http://www.tipitaka.net/pali
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            >
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