Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: FW: previous or past lives?

Expand Messages
  • rjkjp1
    ... found ... ======= Dear jou, I had a look through the majjima and samyutta and found many references to rebirth. I trust these examples suffice:
    Message 1 of 13 , Mar 5 5:24 AM
    • 0 Attachment
      >
      > ===========In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "Norman Joseph Smith"
      > <josmith.1@b...> wrote>
      >
      > > linging aggregates]".
      > >
      > > As well as that it is not surprising to me, thinking the
      > > physiological interpretaion of the three insight knowledges
      > > [tevijjaa] is a later teaching, that these ideas are usually
      found
      > > in Nikaayan texts that most scholars take as later texts, i.e.
      > > Anguttara and Diigha as opposed to Majjhima and Samyutta.
      > > ==================
      >
      >

      > Anyway I have copies of the Majjhima and Samyutta and will see if
      > there are any references to past/future lives.
      > RobertK
      =======
      Dear jou,
      I had a look through the majjima and samyutta and found many
      references to rebirth.
      I trust these examples suffice:
      Saccasamyutta (p1885 Bodhi)
      "so too bhikkhus those beings are few who when they pass away as
      human beings are reborn as human beings. but numerous are those who,
      when they pass away are reborn in hell.."

      Khandavagga (samyutta nikaya)p1026
      here bhikkhus someone practises good conduct of body, speech and
      mind....then with the break-up of the body he is reborn in the
      company of devas who dwell in fragrant roots"
      RobertK
    • Norman Joseph Smith
      ... cut... ... Hi Robert ... not sure about rude :-) I m in good spirits, not so good health atm, dealing with vipaaka from past kamma. :-) ... time ... King
      Message 2 of 13 , Mar 9 11:30 PM
      • 0 Attachment
        --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" <rjkjp1@y...> wrote:

        cut...

        > Dear Jou,

        Hi Robert

        > yes thanks, currently in rude good health and spirits. I hope you
        > are the same.

        not sure about "rude" :-) I'm in good spirits, not so good health
        atm, dealing with vipaaka from past kamma. :-)

        > ===========In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "Norman Joseph Smith"
        > <josmith.1@b...> wrote>
        >
        > > I appreciate you supplying that quote. I have come across quotes
        > > like this before, e.g. D ii 196-7 = DN 17:
        > >
        > >
        > > Now Aananda, you might think that King Mahaasudassana at that
        time
        > > was somebody else. But you whould not regard it so, for I was
        King
        > > Mahaasudassana then..."
        > >
        > > The problem I have with them is they would contradict the
        Buddha's
        > > teaching given so many times as the pracitce of Insight and
        Right
        > > View as not thinking "I am [any of the five clinging
        aggregates]"
        > > or "I am not [any of the five clinging aggregates]".
        > >
        > > As well as that it is not surprising to me, thinking the
        > > physiological interpretaion of the three insight knowledges
        > > [tevijjaa] is a later teaching, that these ideas are usually
        found
        > > in Nikaayan texts that most scholars take as later texts, i.e.
        > > Anguttara and Diigha as opposed to Majjhima and Samyutta.
        > > ==================
        >
        >
        > there are two issues here: the most important being whether
        > rebirth/past/future lives can be accomodated by the core teaching
        of
        > anatta.

        It seems we agree that anattaa is a core teaching, but what the
        teaching about anattaa might be, would be another issue.

        I agree, if the five clinging aggregates are impermanent, then what
        can be permanent enough to be RE-born [consciousness as Bhikkhu
        Saati suggested and for which he was dressed down]. I suggest a
        totally new set of five clinging aggregates arise [a new
        identification/birth, e.g. I'm Buddhist], spurred on by continuing
        impersonal causes [unwholesome habits of thought, word and deed,
        passed on socially].

        > The other is whether only the Vinaya and Majjhima and samyutta
        > nikayas are valid (the rest of the Tipitika being corrupt).
        > In this post I would like to look at the latter issue.

        Well I think that is an oversimplification of what I said, or maybe
        I didn't think carefully before speaking. :-)

        I meant that MORE corrupted texts can be found in the Diigha and
        Anguttara. I'm sure there would be some in the Majjhima and Samyutta
        too.

        > Jou,
        > if your theory is that any references to rebirth and past/future
        > lives could not be made by the Buddha,

        It is.

        > and that any suttas that suggest this must be of late origin,

        No I don't think that. A portion of a sutta may be corrupted, not
        necessarily the whole sutta.

        > then by definition you will
        > only find suttas that support your theory. It seems a flawed way
        to
        > evaluate the Tipitika?

        yes, I agree.

        I don't evaluate the Tipitaka simply like that. I have two phases
        for that.

        1. do the comparative study the Buddha seems to have given for his
        teaching:

        "... All you to whom I have taught these truths that I have realised
        by super-knowledge should come together and recite them, setting
        meaning beside meaning and expression beside expression, without
        dissension, in order that this holy life may continue and be
        established for a long time for the profit and happiness of the
        many..." D 29 : D iii 127 [ooo from the Diigha!]

        Though the texts then goes on to mention the 37 Wings of Awakening,
        I have found that it is most benefically applied to the whole
        teaching and that the mention of the 37 is probably a late addition.

        2. Test the theory so obtained in experience following the advice in
        the Kalaama Sutta. It basically says not to believe [or not] simply
        because it is written in scripture, but to believe or not once one
        has tested it.

        I don't find the teaching of past or future lives, or rebirth helps
        me deal with what is happening here and now. Rather it just
        distracts my attention away from the here and now. It was only when
        I gave that up and started looking for a more practical
        interpreation of the Buddha's teaching that it came alive to me. :-)

        > Anyway I have copies of the Majjhima and Samyutta and will see if
        > there are any references to past/future lives.

        cool

        ----------------------------------------------------
        Please Act Urgently:
        http://www.bigfoot.com/~josmith.1/urgent_action_please.html

        If you're replying to a newsgroup or e-group post of mine please
        also CC to me personally.

        Wishing peace and good health to you and those close to you from
        Norman Joseph (Jou) Smith

        Promotion of my book, The Gift of the Buddha, with a foreword by
        HHDL: http://www.bigfoot.com/~josmith.1/tgotb
        E-group on my book, get a free older copy:
        http://www.smartgroups.com/groups/ttbt
        E-group on 4 Chinese Aagmas compared with 4 Paali Nikaayaa:
        http://www.smartgroups.com/groups/monkey_magic

        All e-mail addresses are in square brackets with the @ sign replaced
        by a space, to make it harder for hackers to use extraction programs.

        E-mail/MSN: [josmith.1 bigfoot.com]
        E-mail/Yahoo: [josmith_1_2000 yahoo.com]
        Student Email: [s351543 student.uq.edu.au]
        ICQ: http://wwp.icq.com/183459
        Home or V-mail: +61 (0)500523778
        Mobile: +61 (0)421 542 653
        S-mail: PO Box 95 Toowong BC Queensland 4066 Australia
        URI: http://www.bigfoot.com/~josmith.1

        Use http://www.trillian.cc to integrate yahoo, icq, and msn (and
        others) and be online with all of them at the same time.

        Use http://www.mailwasher.net/download.php to bounce spam back to
        the sender.
      • Norman Joseph Smith
        ... Hi Frank Hope you are well and happy. Greeting and well wishing would be the practice of mettaa. I find none in your opening or closing remarks, to your
        Message 3 of 13 , Mar 10 12:21 AM
        • 0 Attachment
          --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Frank Kuan <fcckuan@y...> wrote:
          > Norman,

          Hi Frank

          Hope you are well and happy.

          Greeting and well wishing would be the practice of mettaa. I find
          none in your opening or closing remarks, to your loss.

          > What exactly does this have to do with pali?

          On the home page of this group one finds this:

          Main discussion topics:
          1. Tipitaka and sutta study
          2. Pali language and literature
          3. Theravada Buddhism
          4. Samatha and Vipassana meditation
          5. Sutta study tools and methodology
          6. Tipitaka translation theory and practice

          Pali is only one of the allowable and agreed topics.

          > There's numerous references throughout the samyutta
          > and majjhima where the topic of rebirth is addressed.

          I accept that possibility, but are you relying on translation? I
          have found that numerous times English has RE-brith and previous
          lives when the Paali text does not.

          The second point would be, even if you were talking about the Paali,
          where do you factor in that records of texts are impermanent -
          change over time? It is easy to say "of course they are", but to
          identify specific examples is another thing and if one does, of
          course those that cling to those texts as truth are going to react
          from their clinging.

          They want the one making the claim to prove their interpretation
          wrong. I am not interested in proving my or your interpretation. I
          am interested in finding the Buddha's. To do this I want to first
          clarify what the texts SAY. I want to hold off on my interpretation,
          NOT continue to assume, i.e. apply my interpretation, no matter
          where I got it from, or how many follow it. When it comes to
          delusion, majority rules.

          > If you're so interested in finding textual support for
          > your view in a buddhism without literal rebirth,

          I am not concerned with any form of Buddhism or my interpretation. I
          am just interested in looking at the records of what the Buddha
          said. I have given the text used most to justify the common
          interpretation and shown how it does not mention previous "lives"
          or "RE-birth". Maybe you did not see it, but one thing is, you have
          not agreed, even though it is quite clear. To do so, one would have
          to see that one was applying one's interpretation. Then one could
          ask, where did that interpretation come from? Why do I believe it?
          Have I tested it in experience in accordance with the Kalaama Sutta?

          > the
          > onus is on you to diligently go through, find the
          > references, and provide a compelling argument for each
          > case to support your assertion

          I have looked into it for myself. I have diligently gone through,
          and looked carefully at the references supposedly about previous
          lives and RE-birth and found the majority are mistranslations. You
          can reject this if you wish, or investigate for yourself.

          The difference between you and me on this point may be that I have
          investigated it textually and tested BOTH interpretations in
          experience and find the interpretation I have come up with helps me
          more to eradicate greed, hatred and delusion. I have followed the
          Buddha's advice of making a thorough investigation and testing in
          experience. That is I have relied on myself and taken refuge in the
          Dhamma.

          > - especially, why would
          > the Buddha, who was brilliant and known for denouncing
          > harmful wrong views and giving pragmatic explanations
          > of the utmost clarity, in this case give so many
          > explanations where it lends itself so naturally to a
          > literal rebirth interpretation. If there was no
          > literal rebirth, the buddha would have listed that as
          > pernicious wrong view #1 or #2, in the 62 wrong views
          > in the digha nikaya sutta#1(?).

          If you don't want to test an interpretations that someone is saying
          has brought more benefit than the common one, then just continue in
          your theorising without me.

          > The Buddha is not
          > known for teaching in a way that would confuse and
          > easily mislead,

          Indeed. He gave definitions of terms he used and he stuck to them.
          Without knowing and applying the definitions, one misinterprets the
          Buddha's teaching. The first definition is the First Noble Truth,
          the DEFINITION of dukkha according to the Buddha. NOT just
          that "Dukkha exists" [dukkham. hoti] or that "life is dukkha"
          [jiivitam. dukkham.].

          > and rebirth being a prevalent view at
          > the time, he certainly would have devoted a fair
          > amount effort into squashing that view. So it's not
          > just a matter of addressing the cases where the
          > buddha's discourse implies rebirth,

          according to your and many others' interpretation

          > but the glaring
          > omission of why he doesn't correct such a prevalent
          > allegedly wrong view [of literal rebirth].

          Well according to my study he did.

          > The evidence and interpretation you give in your
          > initial query is weak.

          And you have not admitted that the the text I supplied, does NOT
          mention "previous lives" or "rebirth".

          > You're going to have to make a
          > stronger and more detailed case before anyone would
          > take you seriously.

          So you say, but you are wrong. Others do take me [read my points]
          seriously, but you may have something unkind to think, or say about
          them surely.

          ----------------------------------------------------
          Please Act Urgently:
          http://www.bigfoot.com/~josmith.1/urgent_action_please.html

          If you're replying to a newsgroup or e-group post of mine please
          also CC to me personally.

          Wishing peace and good health to you and those close to you from
          Norman Joseph (Jou) Smith

          Promotion of my book, The Gift of the Buddha, with a foreword by
          HHDL: http://www.bigfoot.com/~josmith.1/tgotb
          E-group on my book, get a free older copy:
          http://www.smartgroups.com/groups/ttbt
          E-group on 4 Chinese Aagmas compared with 4 Paali Nikaayaa:
          http://www.smartgroups.com/groups/monkey_magic

          All e-mail addresses are in square brackets with the @ sign replaced
          by a space, to make it harder for hackers to use extraction programs.

          E-mail/MSN: [josmith.1 bigfoot.com]
          E-mail/Yahoo: [josmith_1_2000 yahoo.com]
          Student Email: [s351543 student.uq.edu.au]
          ICQ: http://wwp.icq.com/183459
          Home or V-mail: +61 (0)500523778
          Mobile: +61 (0)421 542 653
          S-mail: PO Box 95 Toowong BC Queensland 4066 Australia
          URI: http://www.bigfoot.com/~josmith.1

          Use http://www.trillian.cc to integrate yahoo, icq, and msn (and
          others) and be online with all of them at the same time.

          Use http://www.mailwasher.net/download.php to bounce spam back to
          the sender.
        • Norman Joseph [Jou] Smith
          ... This message, my reply to Robert, got lost in trasit, but now found and added to and forwarded. :-) ... The most damning evidence for the multiple life and
          Message 4 of 13 , Mar 12 3:36 PM
          • 0 Attachment
            --- Norman Joseph Smith <josmith.1@...> wrote:
            > --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" <rjkjp1@y...> wrote:
            >
            > cut

            This message, my reply to Robert, got lost in trasit, but now found and
            added to and forwarded. :-)

            > > > > As well as that it is not surprising to me, thinking the
            > > > > physiological interpretaion of the three insight knowledges
            > > > > [tevijjaa] is a later teaching, that these ideas are usually
            > > found
            > > > > in Nikaayan texts that most scholars take as later texts, i.e.
            > > > > Anguttara and Diigha as opposed to Majjhima and Samyutta.
            > > > > ==================
            > > >
            > > >
            > >
            > > > Anyway I have copies of the Majjhima and Samyutta and will see
            > if
            > > > there are any references to past/future lives.
            > > > RobertK
            > > =======
            > > Dear jou,
            >
            > Hi Robert and all.
            >
            > Hope you are well and happy.
            >
            > > I had a look through the majjima and samyutta and found many
            > > references to rebirth.
            > > I trust these examples suffice:
            > > Saccasamyutta (p1885 Bodhi)
            > > "so too bhikkhus those beings are few who when they pass away as
            > > human beings are reborn
            > > as human beings. but numerous are those who,
            > > when they pass away are reborn in hell.."
            >
            > M v 474 = M 56.102
            >
            > Evameva kho, bhikkhave, appakaa te sattaa ye manussaa cutaa
            > manussesu paccaajaayanti; atha kho eteva bahutaraa sattaa ye
            > manussaa cutaa niraye paccaajaayanti.
            >
            > This last word, in one dictionary I have gives both meanings of to
            > be born AND to be RE-born.
            >
            > > Khandavagga (samyutta nikaya)p1026
            > > here bhikkhus someone practises good conduct of body, speech and
            > > mind....then with the break-up of the body he is reborn in the
            > > company of devas who dwell in fragrant roots"
            >
            > S iii 251 = S 31.3
            >
            > Ayam. kho, bhikkhu, hetu, ayam. paccayo, yena midhekacco kaayassa
            > bhedaa param. mara.naa muulagandhe adhivatthaanam. devaanam.
            > sahabyatam. upapajjati.
            >
            > This last word, in one dictionary I have gives both meanings of to
            > be born AND to be RE-born.
            >
            > You can choose which meaning you want to follow and only stick to
            > that without testing the other, if you wish. I did that, but
            > eventually thought that would not seem to be to follow the
            > idea, 'the truth does not suffer from investigation'. Not testing a
            > different option, especially after someone says the other is more
            > immediately beneficial, would also not indicate a willingness to
            > learn, which the Buddha said is necessary to progress.
            >
            > Of course the different meanings you choose will affect what you
            > think the goal is.

            The most damning evidence for the multiple life and rebirth theory would
            seem to be the positive version of Dependent Origination, which shows
            how the gradual path IS Dependent Orignation. Therefore "When one sees
            the Dhamma [process of liberation], one sees Dependent Origination" and
            vice versa. See furthest left hand column of the following table
            compared to other teaching of the Buddha [a study method he gave for his
            teaching]:
            http://home.vicnet.net.au/~jousmith/buddhism/jo/d_o_compare.html. It is
            no wonder that those that promote the gross/physiological or the
            impractical psychological understanding of Dependent Origination do not
            know of, or do not speak much of the positive version of D.O.

            ----------------------------------------------------
            Please Act Urgently:
            http://www.bigfoot.com/~josmith.1/urgent_action_please.html

            If you're replying to a newsgroup or e-group post of mine please also CC
            to me personally.

            Wishing peace and good health to you and those close to you from
            Norman Joseph (Jou) Smith

            Promotion of my book, The Gift of the Buddha, with a foreword by HHDL:
            http://www.bigfoot.com/~josmith.1/tgotb
            E-group on my book, get a free older copy:
            http://www.smartgroups.com/groups/ttbt
            E-group on 4 Chinese Aagmas compared with 4 Paali Nikaayaa:
            http://www.smartgroups.com/groups/monkey_magic

            All e-mail addresses are in square brackets with the @ sign replaced by
            a space, to make it harder for hackers to use extraction programs.

            E-mail/MSN: [josmith.1 bigfoot.com]
            E-mail/Yahoo: [josmith_1_2000 yahoo.com]
            Student Email: [s351543 student.uq.edu.au]
            ICQ: http://wwp.icq.com/183459
            Home or V-mail: +61 (0)500523778
            Mobile: +61 (0)421 542 653
            S-mail: PO Box 95 Toowong BC Queensland 4066 Australia
            URI: http://www.bigfoot.com/~josmith.1

            Use http://www.trillian.cc to integrate yahoo, icq, and msn (and others)
            and be online with all of them at the same time.

            Use http://www.mailwasher.net/download.php to bounce spam back to the
            sender.
          • rjkjp1
            Dear Jou, Thank you for your earlier reply and also for reposting this one. I appreciate your looking up the pali to the phrases I gave. One thing: I am not
            Message 5 of 13 , Mar 12 8:29 PM
            • 0 Attachment
              Dear Jou,
              Thank you for your earlier reply and also for reposting this one.
              I appreciate your looking up the pali to the phrases I gave.
              One thing: I am not sure why the sutta about dependent origination
              is evidence against literal rebirth?
              best wishes
              Robert


              --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "Norman Joseph [Jou] Smith" <> > > I
              had a look through the majjima and samyutta and found many
              > > > references to rebirth.
              > > > I trust these examples suffice:
              > > > Saccasamyutta (p1885 Bodhi)
              > > > "so too bhikkhus those beings are few who when they pass away
              as
              > > > human beings are reborn
              > > > as human beings. but numerous are those who,
              > > > when they pass away are reborn in hell.."
              > >
              > > M v 474 = M 56.102
              > >
              > > Evameva kho, bhikkhave, appakaa te sattaa ye manussaa cutaa
              > > manussesu paccaajaayanti; atha kho eteva bahutaraa sattaa ye
              > > manussaa cutaa niraye paccaajaayanti.
              > >
              > > This last word, in one dictionary I have gives both meanings of
              to
              > > be born AND to be RE-born.
              > >
              > > > Khandavagga (samyutta nikaya)p1026
              > > > here bhikkhus someone practises good conduct of body, speech
              and
              > > > mind....then with the break-up of the body he is reborn in the
              > > > company of devas who dwell in fragrant roots"
              > >
              > > S iii 251 = S 31.3
              > >
              > > Ayam. kho, bhikkhu, hetu, ayam. paccayo, yena midhekacco kaayassa
              > > bhedaa param. mara.naa muulagandhe adhivatthaanam. devaanam.
              > > sahabyatam. upapajjati.
              > >
              > > This last word, in one dictionary I have gives both meanings of
              to
              > > be born AND to be RE-born.
              > >> The most damning evidence for the multiple life and rebirth
              theory would
              > seem to be the positive version of Dependent Origination, which
              shows
              > how the gradual path IS Dependent Orignation. Therefore "When one
              sees
              > the Dhamma [process of liberation], one sees Dependent
              Origination" and
              > vice versa. See furthest left hand column of the following table
              > compared to other teaching of the Buddha [a study method he gave
              for his
              > teaching]:
              > http://home.vicnet.net.au/~jousmith/buddhism/jo/d_o_compare.html.
              It is
              > no wonder that those that promote the gross/physiological or the
              > impractical psychological understanding of Dependent Origination
              do not
              > know of, or do not speak much of the positive version of D.O.
              >
              >
            • rjkjp1
              Dear Jou, I found some more suttas in the samyutta nikaya about samsara. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn15-014.html At Savatthi. There
              Message 6 of 13 , Mar 12 8:40 PM
              • 0 Attachment
                Dear Jou,
                I found some more suttas in the samyutta nikaya about samsara.
                http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn15-014.html
                At Savatthi. There the Blessed One said: "From an inconstruable
                beginning comes transmigration. A beginning point is not evident,
                though beings hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving are
                transmigrating & wandering on. A being who has not been your mother
                at one time in the past is not easy to find... A being who has not
                been your father... your brother... your sister... your son... your
                daughter at one time in the past is not easy to find.

                http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn15-009.html
                Why is that? From an inconstruable beginning comes transmigration. A
                beginning point is not evident, though beings hindered by ignorance
                and fettered by craving are transmigrating & wandering on. Long have
                you thus experienced stress, experienced pain, experienced loss,
                swelling the cemeteries -- enough to become disenchanted with all
                fabricated things, enough to become dispassionate, enough to be
                released."
                Robertk
              • Norman Joseph Smith
                ... Hi Robert Hope you are well and happy. ... My pleasure. ... nice of you to say. ... Well the negative version is said to cover three lives. Right? So
                Message 7 of 13 , Mar 13 5:07 PM
                • 0 Attachment
                  --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" <rjkjp1@y...> wrote:
                  > Dear Jou,

                  Hi Robert

                  Hope you are well and happy.

                  > Thank you for your earlier reply and also for reposting this one.

                  My pleasure.

                  > I appreciate your looking up the pali to the phrases I gave.

                  nice of you to say.

                  > One thing: I am not sure why the sutta about dependent origination
                  > is evidence against literal rebirth?

                  Well the negative version is said to cover three lives. Right? So
                  logially the positive one would too, as it would be a mirror of the
                  same process, i.e. coming out of dukkha/samsaara, rather then going
                  into it. But I think it is obvious that the positive version is only
                  about this very life.

                  Even if it [or both] could be interpreted that way, why would one?
                  For didn't the Buddha make clear that his teaching [the 4 Noble
                  Truths, including the path and goal] was for this very life?

                  Peace and good health
                  Jou Smith


                  > --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "Norman Joseph [Jou] Smith" <> > > I
                  > had a look through the majjima and samyutta and found many
                  > > > > references to rebirth.
                  > > > > I trust these examples suffice:
                  > > > > Saccasamyutta (p1885 Bodhi)
                  > > > > "so too bhikkhus those beings are few who when they pass
                  away
                  > as
                  > > > > human beings are reborn
                  > > > > as human beings. but numerous are those who,
                  > > > > when they pass away are reborn in hell.."
                  > > >
                  > > > M v 474 = M 56.102
                  > > >
                  > > > Evameva kho, bhikkhave, appakaa te sattaa ye manussaa cutaa
                  > > > manussesu paccaajaayanti; atha kho eteva bahutaraa sattaa ye
                  > > > manussaa cutaa niraye paccaajaayanti.
                  > > >
                  > > > This last word, in one dictionary I have gives both meanings
                  of
                  > to
                  > > > be born AND to be RE-born.
                  > > >
                  > > > > Khandavagga (samyutta nikaya)p1026
                  > > > > here bhikkhus someone practises good conduct of body, speech
                  > and
                  > > > > mind....then with the break-up of the body he is reborn in
                  the
                  > > > > company of devas who dwell in fragrant roots"
                  > > >
                  > > > S iii 251 = S 31.3
                  > > >
                  > > > Ayam. kho, bhikkhu, hetu, ayam. paccayo, yena midhekacco
                  kaayassa
                  > > > bhedaa param. mara.naa muulagandhe adhivatthaanam. devaanam.
                  > > > sahabyatam. upapajjati.
                  > > >
                  > > > This last word, in one dictionary I have gives both meanings
                  of
                  > to
                  > > > be born AND to be RE-born.
                  > > >> The most damning evidence for the multiple life and rebirth
                  > theory would
                  > > seem to be the positive version of Dependent Origination, which
                  > shows
                  > > how the gradual path IS Dependent Orignation. Therefore "When
                  one
                  > sees
                  > > the Dhamma [process of liberation], one sees Dependent
                  > Origination" and
                  > > vice versa. See furthest left hand column of the following table
                  > > compared to other teaching of the Buddha [a study method he gave
                  > for his
                  > > teaching]:
                  > >
                  http://home.vicnet.net.au/~jousmith/buddhism/jo/d_o_compare.html.
                  > It is
                  > > no wonder that those that promote the gross/physiological or the
                  > > impractical psychological understanding of Dependent Origination
                  > do not
                  > > know of, or do not speak much of the positive version of D.O.
                  > >
                  > >
                • rjkjp1
                  Dear Jou, Thanks for the reply again. One answer as to why that sutta doesn t mention futures lives is that the one who fully untangles the Paticcasamuppadda
                  Message 8 of 13 , Mar 13 6:57 PM
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Dear Jou,
                    Thanks for the reply again.
                    One answer as to why that sutta doesn't mention futures lives is
                    that the one who fully untangles the Paticcasamuppadda is no longer
                    reborn. He has done what has to be done.
                    Do you know the writings of Buddhadasa Bhikkhu, a Thai monk who died
                    about 10 years ago? He had a similar thesis to yours about rebirth
                    and dependendent origination. I have his book about it.
                    RobertK



                    - In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "Norman Joseph Smith" <josmith.1@b...>
                    wrote:
                    > --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" <rjkjp1@y...> wrote:
                    >
                    > > One thing: I am not sure why the sutta about dependent
                    origination
                    > > is evidence against literal rebirth?
                    >
                    > Well the negative version is said to cover three lives. Right? So
                    > logially the positive one would too, as it would be a mirror of
                    the
                    > same process, i.e. coming out of dukkha/samsaara, rather then
                    going
                    > into it. But I think it is obvious that the positive version is
                    only
                    > about this very life.
                    >
                    > Even if it [or both] could be interpreted that way, why would one?
                    > For didn't the Buddha make clear that his teaching [the 4 Noble
                    > Truths, including the path and goal] was for this very life?
                    >
                    > Peace and good health
                    > Jou Smith
                    >
                  Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.