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Pali Fonts and Word macro

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  • Eric Van Horn
    Hello, All, I have uploaded two files to the files section for the group. One contains two fonts that have been modified to render the Pali characters with
    Message 1 of 16 , Nov 27, 2003
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      Hello, All,

      I have uploaded two files to the files section for the group. One
      contains two fonts that have been modified to render the Pali
      characters with diacriticals. One of the fonts is Georgia (a serif
      font) and the other one is Verdana (a sans serif font).

      These are both very nice fonts that were designed by Mathew Carter.
      They are also both freeware, so they can be freely used and
      distributed. Both fonts are True Type fonts, and they are coded to
      the Unicode standard.

      If you already have Georgia and Verdana on your computer, the new
      fonts will coexist with them. They will show up as "Georgia Pali"
      and "Verdana Pali." Your old Georgia and Verdana fonts will still be
      there.

      The second file is a Microsoft Word macro that will convert text
      that uses the non-diacritical conventions (.n, aa, and so forth) to
      Pali characters. Thus, if you take the translations that we get from
      our generous Pali guides, copy them into Word, and run this macro,
      they will display using diacriticals. (Of course they will have to
      be in a font that contains the proper characters, for which the
      aforementioned fonts will work nicely.)

      If anyone has any questions or problems, please let me know.

      Metta,

      Eric Van Horn
      Colchester, VT
    • Ong Yong Peng
      Dear Eric and friends, thanks Eric, the fonts are very useful. The macro is very nice and very handy. metta, Yong Peng ... I have uploaded two files to the
      Message 2 of 16 , Nov 28, 2003
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        Dear Eric and friends,

        thanks Eric, the fonts are very useful. The macro is very nice and
        very handy.

        metta,
        Yong Peng

        --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Eric Van Horn wrote:
        I have uploaded two files to the files section for the group.
      • Eric Van Horn
        You are most welcome. I can convert other fonts as well. If anyone wants other fonts converted to display the Pali characters, let me know. They have to be
        Message 3 of 16 , Nov 28, 2003
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          You are most welcome. I can convert other fonts as well. If anyone wants
          other fonts converted to display the Pali characters, let me know. They have
          to be True Type fonts, and legally they have to be in the public domain.
          (Otherwise you need the owner's permission.) However, there are a great many
          fonts that are freeware, and these can be freely used and distributed.

          Yong Peng, I greatly appreciate all of your help. I am using the Pali
          Primer, and until I discovered the Yahoo Pali group, I wasn't sure if I was
          doing all of the translation correctly. Many thanks for your efforts.

          Eric Van Horn
          Colchester, Vermont


          -----Original Message-----
          From: Ong Yong Peng [mailto:ypong001@...]
          Sent: Friday, November 28, 2003 11:30 AM
          To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [Pali] Re: Pali Fonts and Word macro

          Dear Eric and friends,

          thanks Eric, the fonts are very useful. The macro is very nice and
          very handy.

          metta,
          Yong Peng

          --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Eric Van Horn wrote:
          I have uploaded two files to the files section for the group.



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        • Piya Tan
          Dear Yong Peng, Could you please email the fonts to me as somehow I am unable to access them. I m sending you my new translation of the Sigalovada Sutta (D 31)
          Message 4 of 16 , Nov 28, 2003
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            Dear Yong Peng,

            Could you please email the fonts to me as somehow I am unable to access
            them.

            I'm sending you my new translation of the Sigalovada Sutta (D 31) through
            your personal email address.

            Sukhi

            Piya

            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "Ong Yong Peng" <ypong001@...>
            To: <Pali@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Saturday, 29 November, 2003 12:29 AM
            Subject: [Pali] Re: Pali Fonts and Word macro


            > Dear Eric and friends,
            >
            > thanks Eric, the fonts are very useful. The macro is very nice and
            > very handy.
            >
            > metta,
            > Yong Peng
            >
            > --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Eric Van Horn wrote:
            > I have uploaded two files to the files section for the group.
            >
            >
            >
            > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
            > [Homepage] http://www.tipitaka.net
            > [Send Message] pali@yahoogroups.com
            > Paaliga.na - a community for Pali students
            > Yahoo! Groups members can set their delivery options to daily digest or
            web only.
            >
            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
            >
            >
            >
          • Ong Yong Peng
            Dear Piya and friends, thanks, Piya for the wonderful file. I have converted it into PDF, and have zipped both the MS-Word and PDF versions in a file named
            Message 5 of 16 , Nov 28, 2003
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              Dear Piya and friends,

              thanks, Piya for the wonderful file. I have converted it into PDF,
              and have zipped both the MS-Word and PDF versions in a file named
              D31Sigalovada.zip. You may download the zip file here:

              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Pali/files/palicentre/

              metta,
              Yong Peng

              --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Piya Tan wrote:
              I'm sending you my new translation of the Sigalovada Sutta (D 31)
              through your personal email address.
            • Ong Yong Peng
              Dear Eric and friends, thanks, Eric. What about Arial and Times New Roman? These are commonly used, but the Arial Unicode is just too large, so can you help to
              Message 6 of 16 , Nov 29, 2003
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                Dear Eric and friends,

                thanks, Eric. What about Arial and Times New Roman? These are
                commonly used, but the Arial Unicode is just too large, so can you
                help to make just the Pali extension for these two fonts? Thank you.

                metta,
                Yong Peng

                --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Eric Van Horn wrote:
                I can convert other fonts as well. If anyone wants other fonts
                converted to display the Pali characters, let me know. They have to
                be True Type fonts, and legally they have to be in the public domain.
                (Otherwise you need the owner's permission.) However, there are a
                great many fonts that are freeware, and these can be freely used and
                distributed.
              • Dimitry A. Ivakhnenko (������� ��������
                Dear Yong Peng, OYP thanks, Eric. What about Arial and Times New Roman? These are OYP commonly used, but the Arial Unicode is just too large, so can you OYP
                Message 7 of 16 , Nov 29, 2003
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                  Dear Yong Peng,

                  OYP> thanks, Eric. What about Arial and Times New Roman? These are
                  OYP> commonly used, but the Arial Unicode is just too large, so can you
                  OYP> help to make just the Pali extension for these two fonts? Thank you.

                  There are relatively compact Unicode-type versions available at:
                  http://zencomp.com/greatwisdom/fonts/

                  You are welcome to the selection of fonts at the corresponding section
                  of http://dhamma.ru/sadhu/

                  Metta,
                  Dimitry
                • Eric Van Horn
                  Hi, Yong Peng, Arial and Times Roman are both commercial fonts and cannot be distributed. That is true of Courier as well, which is the other commonly used
                  Message 8 of 16 , Nov 29, 2003
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                    Hi, Yong Peng,

                    Arial and Times Roman are both commercial fonts and cannot be distributed.
                    That is true of Courier as well, which is the other commonly used font. That
                    is why I chose Georgia and Verdana. They are both in the public domain, and
                    they can be used more or less in place of Arial and Times Roman.

                    The full Unicode version of Arial is no longer distributed by Microsoft.
                    Microsoft stopped distributing it during the summer of 2002. Microsoft no
                    longer licenses it. The Arial font that comes with Windows now is a subset
                    of the full font. If you already own the full Unicode Arial font, then you
                    can use it, but it cannot legally be distributed.

                    The font owners are pretty aggressive about protecting their property. One
                    poor fellow in France found himself being sued by a huge company. I suspect
                    that the font owners regularly search the Internet looking for people who
                    are trying to distribute their fonts. It would be unseemly to have a bunch
                    of poor Pali students suddenly being sued by some mega-corporation, not to
                    mention the havoc that it would wreak with the second precept. :)

                    Metta,

                    Eric


                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: Ong Yong Peng [mailto:ypong001@...]
                    Sent: Saturday, November 29, 2003 6:25 AM
                    To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: [Pali] Re: Pali Fonts and Word macro

                    Dear Eric and friends,

                    thanks, Eric. What about Arial and Times New Roman? These are
                    commonly used, but the Arial Unicode is just too large, so can you
                    help to make just the Pali extension for these two fonts? Thank you.

                    metta,
                    Yong Peng

                    --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Eric Van Horn wrote:
                    I can convert other fonts as well. If anyone wants other fonts
                    converted to display the Pali characters, let me know. They have to
                    be True Type fonts, and legally they have to be in the public domain.
                    (Otherwise you need the owner's permission.) However, there are a
                    great many fonts that are freeware, and these can be freely used and
                    distributed.



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                    [Homepage] http://www.tipitaka.net
                    [Send Message] pali@yahoogroups.com
                    Paaliga.na - a community for Pali students
                    Yahoo! Groups members can set their delivery options to daily digest or web
                    only.

                    Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                  • Ong Yong Peng
                    Dear Dimitry, Eric and friends, thanks for the links and advice. They are all very useful. metta, Yong Peng.
                    Message 9 of 16 , Nov 30, 2003
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                      Dear Dimitry, Eric and friends,

                      thanks for the links and advice. They are all very useful.

                      metta,
                      Yong Peng.
                    • Bhikkhu Pesala
                      Eric, may I suggest that the following characters could be added to the Pali fonts? Though the PTS has standardised on the M with dot below (as I have too),
                      Message 10 of 16 , Dec 3, 2003
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                        Eric, may I suggest that the following characters could be added to
                        the Pali fonts? Though the PTS has standardised on the M with dot
                        below (as I have too), some still prefer the M with dot above.

                        I am not a Sanskrit scholar, but I believe that R dot below macron is
                        also useful. In my fonts I compose these from R dot below plus macron
                        to ensure a perfect match to R dot below.

                        uni1E40 Latin Capital Letter M with dot above
                        uni1E41 Latin Lowercase Letter m with dot above

                        uni1E5C Latin Capital Letter R with dot below and macron
                        uni1E5D Latin Lowercase Letter r with dot below and macron

                        In my own Unicode Pali fonts, I have added 20 symbols like white
                        circle, black circle, half circles for moon days; Yin Yang, Dhamma
                        Wheel, and a few other Misc symbols. I add exactly the same characters
                        to all four styles of all fonts as symobls do not require bold or
                        italic versions, nor different typeface designs.

                        You would be welcome to copy the symbols from my Unicode fonts if you
                        think they may be useful: http://www.aimwell.org/Fonts/fonts.html
                      • Eric Van Horn
                        Thank you, Bikkhu Pesala, for your kindly offered suggestions. I just uploaded new versions of the Georgia and Verdana fonts with the four characters that you
                        Message 11 of 16 , Dec 7, 2003
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                          Thank you, Bikkhu Pesala, for your kindly offered suggestions. I just
                          uploaded new versions of the Georgia and Verdana fonts with the four
                          characters that you suggested. Also thank you for pointing me to your fonts.
                          I appreciate your suggestion to add the symbols, as well. That will come in
                          time.

                          Also, John made a number of helpful suggestions for the macro. Thank you so
                          much, John, for your help. I have added a second macro, so it is now
                          possible to convert back and forth between Pali characters and
                          ASCII/Velthius text. I also added some documentation on how to install the
                          macros, and some background on how the work. The two macros and the
                          documentation are now in one zip file. If anyone cannot unzip them, let me
                          know and I will e-mail them to you directly.

                          As always, if anyone has any suggestions or needs some help, let me know.

                          Metta,

                          Eric

                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: Bhikkhu Pesala [mailto:pesala@...]
                          Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2003 2:14 PM
                          To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: [Pali] Re: Additional Characters for Pali Fonts

                          Eric, may I suggest that the following characters could be added to
                          the Pali fonts? Though the PTS has standardised on the M with dot
                          below (as I have too), some still prefer the M with dot above.

                          I am not a Sanskrit scholar, but I believe that R dot below macron is
                          also useful. In my fonts I compose these from R dot below plus macron
                          to ensure a perfect match to R dot below.

                          uni1E40 Latin Capital Letter M with dot above
                          uni1E41 Latin Lowercase Letter m with dot above

                          uni1E5C Latin Capital Letter R with dot below and macron
                          uni1E5D Latin Lowercase Letter r with dot below and macron

                          In my own Unicode Pali fonts, I have added 20 symbols like white
                          circle, black circle, half circles for moon days; Yin Yang, Dhamma
                          Wheel, and a few other Misc symbols. I add exactly the same characters
                          to all four styles of all fonts as symobls do not require bold or
                          italic versions, nor different typeface designs.

                          You would be welcome to copy the symbols from my Unicode fonts if you
                          think they may be useful: http://www.aimwell.org/Fonts/fonts.html




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                          [Homepage] http://www.tipitaka.net
                          [Send Message] pali@yahoogroups.com
                          Paaliga.na - a community for Pali students
                          Yahoo! Groups members can set their delivery options to daily digest or web
                          only.

                          Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                        • Bhikkhu Pesala
                          I just received an email from Ulrich Steil who developed the URW Palladio fonts - a link to his fonts can be found on my fonts page. He informs me that the
                          Message 12 of 16 , Dec 11, 2003
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                            I just received an email from Ulrich Steil who developed the URW
                            Palladio fonts - a link to his fonts can be found on my fonts page.

                            He informs me that the Verdana and Georgia fonts ARE NOT IN THE PUBLIC
                            DOMAIN. So who should we believe?

                            I must admit to being sceptical that Microsoft would ever release
                            their grip on anything they were associated with. I would like to
                            believe you Eric, but I need some solid evidence first.

                            With metta

                            Bhikkhu Pesala
                          • Bhikkhu Pesala
                            Ulrich gave me permission to post his email on the forum: Dear Bhikkhu Pesala, Thank you for your email. I am of opinion that Mr. Eric Van Horn s view is no
                            Message 13 of 16 , Dec 12, 2003
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                              Ulrich gave me permission to post his email on the forum:

                              Dear Bhikkhu Pesala,

                              Thank you for your email. I am of opinion that
                              Mr. Eric Van Horn's view is no longer valid.

                              The Verdana and Georgia fonts were once offered
                              by Microsoft for free download, but they were
                              never "public domain". See e.g. the old site

                              http://www.will-harris.com/verdana-georgia.htm

                              The links given there are no longer valid, because
                              later Microsoft withdrew these fonts. The copyright
                              situation is clearly described at

                              http://www.microsoft.com/permission/copyrgt/cop-soft.htm#Fonts
                              http://www.microsoft.com/typography/faq/faq8.htm
                              http://www.microsoft.com/typography/faq/faq11.htm

                              I am sorry that I cannot give you a more favorable information.

                              Since I am an expert in copyright matters, I take the
                              liberty to clarify this point: "Public domain" is a term
                              unprecisely used nowadays. "Public domain" means that the
                              copyright period of (in many countries) 70 years after the
                              author's death has expired. Since the Georgia/Verdana designer
                              M. Carter is still living, there cannot be any "public domain".

                              However, designer Carter and/or Microsoft could have licensed
                              the right to everyone to modify and redistribte these two fonts.

                              But the Microsoft website link given above states clearly:

                              "The following fonts are wholly owned by Microsoft and are not
                              available to license for redistribution, 'Verdana', 'Georgia' ..."

                              I wish you (and me (!) and others) were authorized to modify the
                              Verdana/Georgia fonts by Pali etc. diacritics and were authorized
                              to redistribute these fonts to the Pali and Sanskrit community.

                              You may post my email on the Pali bulletin for other to read,
                              or else pass it along only to Mr. Eric Van Horn.

                              Best wishes,

                              Ulrich
                            • Stephen Hodge
                              ... Unfortunately, according to the font details I have (look in your Fonts file and click to open each font), they are both copyright (1996) to Microsoft.
                              Message 14 of 16 , Dec 12, 2003
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                                Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:

                                > He informs me that the Verdana and Georgia fonts ARE NOT IN THE PUBLIC
                                > DOMAIN. So who should we believe?

                                Unfortunately, according to the font details I have (look in your Fonts file
                                and click to open each font), they are both copyright (1996) to Microsoft.
                                Pity !

                                Best wishes,
                                Stephen Hodge
                              • Eric Van Horn
                                Hello, Bikkhu Pesala, Thank you for your comments. It is true that Microsoft no longer provides the free font download service, but that is a distribution
                                Message 15 of 16 , Dec 12, 2003
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                                  Hello, Bikkhu Pesala,

                                  Thank you for your comments. It is true that Microsoft no longer
                                  provides the free font download service, but that is a distribution
                                  issue, not a licensing one.

                                  According to the web site at http://simplythebest.net, Verdana and
                                  Georgia are freeware. Technically freeware is not in the public domain,
                                  so in that sense, Ulrich is correct. When I gave my earlier explanation,
                                  I was trying to avoid technicalities what I did not think applied to our
                                  group. However, your point is well made. Freeware is free for use by
                                  "professional webmasters and hobbyists," but if you wish to use them
                                  commercially, you may have to register them first.

                                  The link for the Verdana font, which includes the licensing information,
                                  is at http://www.simplythebest.net/fonts/fonts/verdana.html, and the
                                  link to the Georgia description is at
                                  http://www.simplythebest.net/fonts/fonts/georgia.html.

                                  If you find any information to the contrary, by all means let me know.

                                  Metta,

                                  Eric


                                  -----Original Message-----
                                  From: Bhikkhu Pesala [mailto:pesala@...]
                                  Sent: Friday, December 12, 2003 6:03 AM
                                  To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
                                  Subject: [Pali] Re: Verdana and Georgia Fonts

                                  Ulrich gave me permission to post his email on the forum:

                                  Dear Bhikkhu Pesala,

                                  Thank you for your email. I am of opinion that
                                  Mr. Eric Van Horn's view is no longer valid.

                                  The Verdana and Georgia fonts were once offered
                                  by Microsoft for free download, but they were
                                  never "public domain". See e.g. the old site

                                  http://www.will-harris.com/verdana-georgia.htm

                                  The links given there are no longer valid, because
                                  later Microsoft withdrew these fonts. The copyright
                                  situation is clearly described at

                                  http://www.microsoft.com/permission/copyrgt/cop-soft.htm#Fonts
                                  http://www.microsoft.com/typography/faq/faq8.htm
                                  http://www.microsoft.com/typography/faq/faq11.htm

                                  I am sorry that I cannot give you a more favorable information.

                                  Since I am an expert in copyright matters, I take the
                                  liberty to clarify this point: "Public domain" is a term
                                  unprecisely used nowadays. "Public domain" means that the
                                  copyright period of (in many countries) 70 years after the
                                  author's death has expired. Since the Georgia/Verdana designer
                                  M. Carter is still living, there cannot be any "public domain".

                                  However, designer Carter and/or Microsoft could have licensed
                                  the right to everyone to modify and redistribte these two fonts.

                                  But the Microsoft website link given above states clearly:

                                  "The following fonts are wholly owned by Microsoft and are not
                                  available to license for redistribution, 'Verdana', 'Georgia' ..."

                                  I wish you (and me (!) and others) were authorized to modify the
                                  Verdana/Georgia fonts by Pali etc. diacritics and were authorized
                                  to redistribute these fonts to the Pali and Sanskrit community.

                                  You may post my email on the Pali bulletin for other to read,
                                  or else pass it along only to Mr. Eric Van Horn.

                                  Best wishes,

                                  Ulrich




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                                  [Homepage] http://www.tipitaka.net
                                  [Send Message] pali@yahoogroups.com
                                  Paaliga.na - a community for Pali students
                                  Yahoo! Groups members can set their delivery options to daily digest or
                                  web only.

                                  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                                  http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                • Eric Van Horn
                                  Yes, that is correct. Freeware means that the owner retains the rights to it, but they do not charge for non-commercial use. Eric ... From: Stephen Hodge
                                  Message 16 of 16 , Dec 13, 2003
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                                    Yes, that is correct. Freeware means that the owner retains the rights to
                                    it, but they do not charge for non-commercial use.

                                    Eric


                                    -----Original Message-----
                                    From: Stephen Hodge [mailto:s.hodge@...]
                                    Sent: Friday, December 12, 2003 6:46 AM
                                    To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
                                    Subject: Re: [Pali] Re: Verdana and Georgia Fonts

                                    Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:

                                    > He informs me that the Verdana and Georgia fonts ARE NOT IN THE PUBLIC
                                    > DOMAIN. So who should we believe?

                                    Unfortunately, according to the font details I have (look in your Fonts file
                                    and click to open each font), they are both copyright (1996) to Microsoft.
                                    Pity !

                                    Best wishes,
                                    Stephen Hodge




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