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Re: [Pali] Pali - Every few days - [B094]

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  • Michael Beisert
    Nina, On the surface this seems like a very easy question but in fact it is very complex. Maybe this is the reason there has been no replies so far? I had in
    Message 1 of 14 , Nov 1, 2003
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      Nina,

      On the surface this seems like a very easy question but in fact it is very
      complex. Maybe this is the reason there has been no replies so far? I had in
      the back of my mind that somewhere I read something about your question but
      my research ended empty and therefore I will give you my opinion on it. I
      think the answer to your question is no, someone who has not heard the
      Dhamma and commits an akusala deed is in a better position than someone who
      knows the Dhamma, even worse if someone is a commited disciple of the
      Buddha. My reasoning is that someone that knows that a certain deed should
      be avoided and nevertheless does it would have a stronger mental imprint
      because of that than someone who is ignorant of the Dhamma. And that
      stronger imprint means a stronger kamma. Having said that we should remember
      that the workings of kamma can be very complex and just as a reminder look
      at the Lonaphala Sutta (AN III.99).

      Now the question becomes really complex when you throw in the �skilful
      means� so highly praised in the Mahayana tradition. And using a skilful
      means interpretation of a certain deed, what apparently would be an akusala
      deed could be regarded as kusala. And this really opens the door for any
      actions to be interpreted anyway you want and to atribute any kamma
      consequences you want.

      Metta
      Michael



      >From: nina van gorkom <nilo@...>
      >Reply-To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
      >To: <Pali@yahoogroups.com>
      >Subject: Re: [Pali] Pali - Every few days - [B094]
      >Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 19:15:12 +0100
      >
      >Dear John and friends,
      >This is interesting. We just discussed in Dhamma Study Group this subject.
      >Suppose you do evil without having heard the Dhamma, is this evil greater
      >than when you know it is akusala? I frwd this post to the group.
      >Nina.
      >op 29-10-2003 16:27 schreef John Kelly op palistudent@...:
      >
      > > Pali - Every few days - [B094]
      > > Gair/Karunatillake - Chapter 5 ? Further Readings
      > > Ex. 3. (Part 1 of 2)
      > >
      > > Raajaa aaha: ?Bhante Naagasena, yo jaananto
      > > paapakamma.m karoti, yo ajaananto paapakamma.m karoti,
      > > kassa bahutara.m apu~n~nan?ti?
      > > The king said: "Venerable Nagasena, for whom is the
      > > greater demerit, one who knowingly does evil, or one
      > > who does evil unknowingly??
      >

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    • Todd Martin
      Michael, I sort of disagree. Someone who has heard the Dhamma will generally be living a good life. If they then commit a wrong deed they will indeed suffer,
      Message 2 of 14 , Nov 1, 2003
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        Michael,

        I sort of disagree. Someone who has heard the Dhamma will generally be
        living a good life. If they then commit a wrong deed they will indeed
        suffer, however they will have the tools available to end that
        suffering. Someone who has not and is, lets say for sake of argument, a
        career criminal, they live in constant suffering with no peace ever.
        Clearly they suffer more in terms of consistency and lack the tools
        needed to end that suffering, leading to further feelings of
        hopelessness. Which will usually lead to them committing more wrong
        deeds adding to their cycle of hellish existence.

        I do however see the point of "Who suffers more?" as irrelevant,
        suffering is suffering no matter how you shake it. All should be
        avoided. I don't think we should discriminate against those who suffer
        less.

        -todd

        On Nov 1, 2003, at 8:45 AM, Michael Beisert wrote:

        > Nina,
        >
        > On the surface this seems like a very easy question but in fact it is
        > very
        > complex. Maybe this is the reason there has been no replies so far? I
        > had in
        > the back of my mind that somewhere I read something about your
        > question but
        > my research ended empty and therefore I will give you my opinion on
        > it. I
        > think the answer to your question is no, someone who has not heard the
        > Dhamma and commits an akusala deed is in a better position than
        > someone who
        > knows the Dhamma, even worse if someone is a commited disciple of the
        > Buddha. My reasoning is that someone that knows that a certain deed
        > should
        > be avoided and nevertheless does it would have a stronger mental
        > imprint
        > because of that than someone who is ignorant of the Dhamma. And that
        > stronger imprint means a stronger kamma. Having said that we should
        > remember
        > that the workings of kamma can be very complex and just as a reminder
        > look
        > at the Lonaphala Sutta (AN III.99).
        >
        > Now the question becomes really complex when you throw in the ‘skilful
        > means’ so highly praised in the Mahayana tradition. And using a skilful
        > means interpretation of a certain deed, what apparently would be an
        > akusala
        > deed could be regarded as kusala. And this really opens the door for
        > any
        > actions to be interpreted anyway you want and to atribute any kamma
        > consequences you want.
        >
        > Metta
        > Michael
        >
        >
        >
        >> From: nina van gorkom <nilo@...>
        >> Reply-To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
        >> To: <Pali@yahoogroups.com>
        >> Subject: Re: [Pali] Pali - Every few days - [B094]
        >> Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 19:15:12 +0100
        >>
        >> Dear John and friends,
        >> This is interesting. We just discussed in Dhamma Study Group this
        >> subject.
        >> Suppose you do evil without having heard the Dhamma, is this evil
        >> greater
        >> than when you know it is akusala? I frwd this post to the group.
        >> Nina.
        >> op 29-10-2003 16:27 schreef John Kelly op palistudent@...:
        >>
        >>> Pali - Every few days - [B094]
        >>> Gair/Karunatillake - Chapter 5 ? Further Readings
        >>> Ex. 3. (Part 1 of 2)
        >>>
        >>> Raajaa aaha: ?Bhante Naagasena, yo jaananto
        >>> paapakamma.m karoti, yo ajaananto paapakamma.m karoti,
        >>> kassa bahutara.m apu~n~nan?ti?
        >>> The king said: "Venerable Nagasena, for whom is the
        >>> greater demerit, one who knowingly does evil, or one
        >>> who does evil unknowingly??
        >>
        >
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        ------------
        "I know what you're thinking about but it isn't so, nohow.
        Contrariwise, if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would
        be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic."


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Eric Van Horn
        Hello Michael, Nina, et al, I remember being taught about this issue by Sharon Salzberg and Joseph Goldstein at the Insight Meditation Society. It is a
        Message 3 of 14 , Nov 1, 2003
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          Hello Michael, Nina, et al,

          I remember being taught about this issue by Sharon Salzberg and Joseph
          Goldstein at the Insight Meditation Society. It is a teaching from the
          Burmese tradition. I apologize in advance if I am not able to properly
          articulate it.

          We are all subject to the unrelenting laws of cause and affect. Unwholesome
          actions have unwholesome results, and wholesome actions have wholesome
          results. The more unwholesome the act is, the more unwholesome the affect
          is, and vice versa

          Someone who is more mindful, even if they commit an unwholesome act, is
          likely to put somewhat less energy into that act. There may be the slightest
          hesitation before committing that act. Therefore, the act will be slightly
          less powerful, and slightly less unwholesome.

          Anything that strengthens mindfulness will help to protect us. Hopefully
          exposure to the Dhamma is one of them! Ignorance is not a protection against
          the results of unwholesome acts. Indeed, ignorance leaves us defenseless,
          like an ancient city with no walls. This is why ignorance is one of the
          three the poisons. Ignorance is one of the reasons that we continue to be
          subject to the relentless cycle of samsara.

          The good news for those of us who have been exposed - even briefly - to the
          Dhamma, is that this exposure helps protect us against future misfortune. It
          is especially good news for our future lives, but it is also pretty good
          news for this one. :)

          Metta,

          Eric Van Horn
          Colchester, Vermont


          -----Original Message-----
          From: Michael Beisert [mailto:mbeisert@...]
          Sent: Saturday, November 01, 2003 11:46 AM
          To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [Pali] Pali - Every few days - [B094]

          Nina,

          On the surface this seems like a very easy question but in fact it is very
          complex. Maybe this is the reason there has been no replies so far? I had in
          the back of my mind that somewhere I read something about your question but
          my research ended empty and therefore I will give you my opinion on it. I
          think the answer to your question is no, someone who has not heard the
          Dhamma and commits an akusala deed is in a better position than someone who
          knows the Dhamma, even worse if someone is a commited disciple of the
          Buddha. My reasoning is that someone that knows that a certain deed should
          be avoided and nevertheless does it would have a stronger mental imprint
          because of that than someone who is ignorant of the Dhamma. And that
          stronger imprint means a stronger kamma. Having said that we should remember
          that the workings of kamma can be very complex and just as a reminder look
          at the Lonaphala Sutta (AN III.99).

          Now the question becomes really complex when you throw in the 'skilful
          means' so highly praised in the Mahayana tradition. And using a skilful
          means interpretation of a certain deed, what apparently would be an akusala
          deed could be regarded as kusala. And this really opens the door for any
          actions to be interpreted anyway you want and to atribute any kamma
          consequences you want.

          Metta
          Michael



          >From: nina van gorkom <nilo@...>
          >Reply-To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
          >To: <Pali@yahoogroups.com>
          >Subject: Re: [Pali] Pali - Every few days - [B094]
          >Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 19:15:12 +0100
          >
          >Dear John and friends,
          >This is interesting. We just discussed in Dhamma Study Group this subject.
          >Suppose you do evil without having heard the Dhamma, is this evil greater
          >than when you know it is akusala? I frwd this post to the group.
          >Nina.
          >op 29-10-2003 16:27 schreef John Kelly op palistudent@...:
          >
          > > Pali - Every few days - [B094]
          > > Gair/Karunatillake - Chapter 5 ? Further Readings
          > > Ex. 3. (Part 1 of 2)
          > >
          > > Raajaa aaha: ?Bhante Naagasena, yo jaananto
          > > paapakamma.m karoti, yo ajaananto paapakamma.m karoti,
          > > kassa bahutara.m apu~n~nan?ti?
          > > The king said: "Venerable Nagasena, for whom is the
          > > greater demerit, one who knowingly does evil, or one
          > > who does evil unknowingly??
          >

          _________________________________________________________________
          Surf and talk on the phone at the same time with broadband Internet access.
          Get high-speed for as low as $29.95/month (depending on the local service
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        • Michael Beisert
          Hello Eric, You wrote: Someone who is more mindful, even if they commit an unwholesome act, is likely to put somewhat less energy into that act. There may be
          Message 4 of 14 , Nov 1, 2003
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            Hello Eric,

            You wrote:
            "Someone who is more mindful, even if they commit an unwholesome act, is
            likely to put somewhat less energy into that act. There may be the slightest
            hesitation before committing that act. Therefore, the act will be slightly
            less powerful, and slightly less unwholesome."

            I would argue that it depends a lot on the level o guilt and remorse felt
            about what has been done. Someone who does not know the Dhamma will find a
            way or rationalizing any action and is unilkely to feel as much
            guilt/remorse. While a Dhamma practitioner who knows that the deed was wrong
            the feeling of guilt/remorse can leave a strong imprint in the mind. But if
            there is no feeling of guilt/remorse, lets say there is confession and a
            commitment not to perform that kind of deed anymore, then the imprint on the
            mind of the dhamma practiotioner could be weakened.

            Metta
            Michael




            >From: "Eric Van Horn" <ekvh@...>
            >Reply-To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
            >To: <Pali@yahoogroups.com>
            >Subject: RE: [Pali] Pali - Every few days - [B094]
            >Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2003 17:01:15 -0500
            >
            >Hello Michael, Nina, et al,
            >
            >I remember being taught about this issue by Sharon Salzberg and Joseph
            >Goldstein at the Insight Meditation Society. It is a teaching from the
            >Burmese tradition. I apologize in advance if I am not able to properly
            >articulate it.
            >
            >We are all subject to the unrelenting laws of cause and affect. Unwholesome
            >actions have unwholesome results, and wholesome actions have wholesome
            >results. The more unwholesome the act is, the more unwholesome the affect
            >is, and vice versa
            >
            >Someone who is more mindful, even if they commit an unwholesome act, is
            >likely to put somewhat less energy into that act. There may be the
            >slightest
            >hesitation before committing that act. Therefore, the act will be slightly
            >less powerful, and slightly less unwholesome.
            >
            >Anything that strengthens mindfulness will help to protect us. Hopefully
            >exposure to the Dhamma is one of them! Ignorance is not a protection
            >against
            >the results of unwholesome acts. Indeed, ignorance leaves us defenseless,
            >like an ancient city with no walls. This is why ignorance is one of the
            >three the poisons. Ignorance is one of the reasons that we continue to be
            >subject to the relentless cycle of samsara.
            >
            >The good news for those of us who have been exposed - even briefly - to the
            >Dhamma, is that this exposure helps protect us against future misfortune.
            >It
            >is especially good news for our future lives, but it is also pretty good
            >news for this one. :)
            >
            >Metta,
            >
            >Eric Van Horn
            >Colchester, Vermont
            >
            >
            >-----Original Message-----
            >From: Michael Beisert [mailto:mbeisert@...]
            >Sent: Saturday, November 01, 2003 11:46 AM
            >To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
            >Subject: Re: [Pali] Pali - Every few days - [B094]
            >
            >Nina,
            >
            >On the surface this seems like a very easy question but in fact it is very
            >complex. Maybe this is the reason there has been no replies so far? I had
            >in
            >the back of my mind that somewhere I read something about your question but
            >my research ended empty and therefore I will give you my opinion on it. I
            >think the answer to your question is no, someone who has not heard the
            >Dhamma and commits an akusala deed is in a better position than someone who
            >knows the Dhamma, even worse if someone is a commited disciple of the
            >Buddha. My reasoning is that someone that knows that a certain deed should
            >be avoided and nevertheless does it would have a stronger mental imprint
            >because of that than someone who is ignorant of the Dhamma. And that
            >stronger imprint means a stronger kamma. Having said that we should
            >remember
            >that the workings of kamma can be very complex and just as a reminder look
            >at the Lonaphala Sutta (AN III.99).
            >
            >Now the question becomes really complex when you throw in the 'skilful
            >means' so highly praised in the Mahayana tradition. And using a skilful
            >means interpretation of a certain deed, what apparently would be an akusala
            >deed could be regarded as kusala. And this really opens the door for any
            >actions to be interpreted anyway you want and to atribute any kamma
            >consequences you want.
            >
            >Metta
            >Michael
            >
            >
            >
            > >From: nina van gorkom <nilo@...>
            > >Reply-To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
            > >To: <Pali@yahoogroups.com>
            > >Subject: Re: [Pali] Pali - Every few days - [B094]
            > >Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 19:15:12 +0100
            > >
            > >Dear John and friends,
            > >This is interesting. We just discussed in Dhamma Study Group this
            >subject.
            > >Suppose you do evil without having heard the Dhamma, is this evil greater
            > >than when you know it is akusala? I frwd this post to the group.
            > >Nina.
            > >op 29-10-2003 16:27 schreef John Kelly op palistudent@...:
            > >
            > > > Pali - Every few days - [B094]
            > > > Gair/Karunatillake - Chapter 5 ? Further Readings
            > > > Ex. 3. (Part 1 of 2)
            > > >
            > > > Raajaa aaha: ?Bhante Naagasena, yo jaananto
            > > > paapakamma.m karoti, yo ajaananto paapakamma.m karoti,
            > > > kassa bahutara.m apu~n~nan?ti?
            > > > The king said: "Venerable Nagasena, for whom is the
            > > > greater demerit, one who knowingly does evil, or one
            > > > who does evil unknowingly??
            > >
            >
            >_________________________________________________________________
            >Surf and talk on the phone at the same time with broadband Internet access.
            >Get high-speed for as low as $29.95/month (depending on the local service
            >providers in your area). https://broadband.msn.com
            >
            >
            >
            >- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
            >[Homepage] http://www.tipitaka.net
            >[Send Message] pali@yahoogroups.com
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            >only.
            >
            >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
            >

            _________________________________________________________________
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          • rjkjp1
            ... briefly - to the ... misfortune. It ... pretty good ... Dear Eric, Yes. In the commentaries they give the example of the baby who reaches out for a hot pot
            Message 5 of 14 , Nov 1, 2003
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              --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "Eric Van Horn" <ekvh@u...> wrote:
              > Hello Michael, Nina, et al,
              >
              > .
              >
              > The good news for those of us who have been exposed - even
              briefly - to the
              > Dhamma, is that this exposure helps protect us against future
              misfortune. It
              > is especially good news for our future lives, but it is also
              pretty good
              > news for this one. :)
              >
              > Metta,
              >
              > Eric Van Horn
              > Colchester, Vermont
              >==========
              Dear Eric,
              Yes. In the commentaries they give the example of the baby who
              reaches out for a hot pot on a stove. They are completely ignorant
              of the danger and so burn themselves badly. The adult takes hold of
              the same pot, but very gingerly moving it quickly. They feel the
              heat but don't get burned much, if at all.
              Say someone is poor and makes a living as a hunter supporting his
              family in this way. But he knows it is akusala, so as soon as
              another opportunity arises he gives up that action and never kills
              again. On the other hand, the person ignorant of Dhamma might even
              do hunting as a sport, enjoying the killing, and looking for any
              chance to go hunting. Hunting is always akusala but we see how the
              ignorant one is in the more dangerous position.
              RobertK
            • nina van gorkom
              Dear Michael, to recapitulate: from Milinda s questions: The king said: Venerable Nagasena, for whom is the greater demerit, one who knowingly does evil,
              Message 6 of 14 , Nov 2, 2003
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                Dear Michael,
                to recapitulate: from Milinda's questions: >>> The king said: "Venerable
                Nagasena, for whom is the greater demerit, one who knowingly does evil, or
                one who does evil unknowingly?>
                Nagasena's answer was one who does evil unknowingly.

                op 01-11-2003 17:45 schreef Michael Beisert op mbeisert@...:
                >
                > On the surface this seems like a very easy question but in fact it is very
                > complex. ..... the answer to your question is no, someone who has not heard
                the
                > Dhamma and commits an akusala deed is in a better position than someone who
                > knows the Dhamma....
                N: It is complex. Let us go to the roots of all akusala. There are three
                akusala hetus or roots which are the foundation of akusala citta. I do not
                know the Portuguese word for root, in French it is racine. In Pali the tersm
                hetu and muula are used. The three are: lobha (greed) dosa (aversion or
                hate) and moha (ignorance or delusion). Another word for moha is avijjaa.
                There are akusala cittas rooted in moha and lobha, rooted in moha and dosa
                and rooted in moha alone. But all akusala cittas have moha as their root.
                Dhammapada vs 251: <...there is no net like delusion>, and in the Ch on
                taints, vs. 243:... <and a worse taint than these is ignorance, the greatest
                taint.>
                We become entangled in ignorance, it is like a net.
                Ignorance is not knowing realities as they are, not knowing what is kusala,
                what is akusala, not knowing the four noble Truths. It is like blindness,
                like darkness.
                There are different intensities, degrees of the akusala hetus. When the
                degree of moha is stronger, there is a higher degree of akusala. The
                akusala hetu that arises together with the citta conditions the accompanying
                mental factors (cetasikas) and the citta. It motivates different degrees of
                unwholesome deeds.
                I could recommend the Wheel, no 251-253, by Ven. Nyanaponika: "the Roots of
                Good and Evil ".

                M: we should remember
                > that the workings of kamma can be very complex and just as a reminder look
                > at the Lonaphala Sutta (AN III.99).
                N: Yes, only a Buddha thoroughly penetrates the workings of kamma and
                result.
                This sutta is very complex, but does not contradict the fact that more
                ignorance conditions the akusala to be more intense. Decisive here is
                leading the holy life. The Buddha teaches here about being in the cycle and
                going out of the cycle, the commentary states.
                M: Now the question becomes really complex when you throw in the skilful
                > means’ so highly praised in the Mahayana tradition. And using a skilful
                > means interpretation of a certain deed, what apparently would be an akusala
                > deed could be regarded as kusala. And this really opens the door for any
                > actions to be interpreted anyway you want and to atribute any kamma
                > consequences you want.
                N: Then there is more and more ignorance, as I see it. Metta is always
                kusala, violence is always akusala. Nobody in the world can change akusala
                into kusala. The three beautiful roots are: alobha, adosa and amoha or
                pa~n~naa.
                Nina.
              • Michael Beisert
                Todd, I understand your argument and to some extent agree with what you say. Your argument works better in a single life time but would maybe not hold so well
                Message 7 of 14 , Nov 2, 2003
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                  Todd,

                  I understand your argument and to some extent agree with what you say. Your
                  argument works better in a single life time but would maybe not hold so well
                  across life times. But my understanding is that the original question was
                  not in terms of the level of suffering but on the degree of intensity of
                  kamma. Or maybe better said the potential degree of vipaka based on the same
                  unwholesome kamma (action/deed) by a dhamma practitioner and someone
                  without any knowledge of the dhamma. My reasoning was that for a dhamma
                  practitioner the vipaka is likely, but not necessarilly, going to be
                  stronger.
                  Metta
                  Michael


                  >From: Todd Martin <todd@...>
                  >Reply-To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
                  >To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
                  >Subject: Re: [Pali] Pali - Every few days - [B094]
                  >Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2003 10:11:34 -0800
                  >
                  >Michael,
                  >
                  >I sort of disagree. Someone who has heard the Dhamma will generally be
                  >living a good life. If they then commit a wrong deed they will indeed
                  >suffer, however they will have the tools available to end that
                  >suffering. Someone who has not and is, lets say for sake of argument, a
                  >career criminal, they live in constant suffering with no peace ever.
                  >Clearly they suffer more in terms of consistency and lack the tools
                  >needed to end that suffering, leading to further feelings of
                  >hopelessness. Which will usually lead to them committing more wrong
                  >deeds adding to their cycle of hellish existence.
                  >
                  >I do however see the point of "Who suffers more?" as irrelevant,
                  >suffering is suffering no matter how you shake it. All should be
                  >avoided. I don't think we should discriminate against those who suffer
                  >less.
                  >
                  >-todd
                  >
                  >On Nov 1, 2003, at 8:45 AM, Michael Beisert wrote:
                  >
                  > > Nina,
                  > >
                  > > On the surface this seems like a very easy question but in fact it is
                  > > very
                  > > complex. Maybe this is the reason there has been no replies so far? I
                  > > had in
                  > > the back of my mind that somewhere I read something about your
                  > > question but
                  > > my research ended empty and therefore I will give you my opinion on
                  > > it. I
                  > > think the answer to your question is no, someone who has not heard the
                  > > Dhamma and commits an akusala deed is in a better position than
                  > > someone who
                  > > knows the Dhamma, even worse if someone is a commited disciple of the
                  > > Buddha. My reasoning is that someone that knows that a certain deed
                  > > should
                  > > be avoided and nevertheless does it would have a stronger mental
                  > > imprint
                  > > because of that than someone who is ignorant of the Dhamma. And that
                  > > stronger imprint means a stronger kamma. Having said that we should
                  > > remember
                  > > that the workings of kamma can be very complex and just as a reminder
                  > > look
                  > > at the Lonaphala Sutta (AN III.99).
                  > >
                  > > Now the question becomes really complex when you throw in the �skilful
                  > > means� so highly praised in the Mahayana tradition. And using a skilful
                  > > means interpretation of a certain deed, what apparently would be an
                  > > akusala
                  > > deed could be regarded as kusala. And this really opens the door for
                  > > any
                  > > actions to be interpreted anyway you want and to atribute any kamma
                  > > consequences you want.
                  > >
                  > > Metta
                  > > Michael
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >> From: nina van gorkom <nilo@...>
                  > >> Reply-To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
                  > >> To: <Pali@yahoogroups.com>
                  > >> Subject: Re: [Pali] Pali - Every few days - [B094]
                  > >> Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 19:15:12 +0100
                  > >>
                  > >> Dear John and friends,
                  > >> This is interesting. We just discussed in Dhamma Study Group this
                  > >> subject.
                  > >> Suppose you do evil without having heard the Dhamma, is this evil
                  > >> greater
                  > >> than when you know it is akusala? I frwd this post to the group.
                  > >> Nina.
                  > >> op 29-10-2003 16:27 schreef John Kelly op palistudent@...:
                  > >>
                  > >>> Pali - Every few days - [B094]
                  > >>> Gair/Karunatillake - Chapter 5 ? Further Readings
                  > >>> Ex. 3. (Part 1 of 2)
                  > >>>
                  > >>> Raajaa aaha: ?Bhante Naagasena, yo jaananto
                  > >>> paapakamma.m karoti, yo ajaananto paapakamma.m karoti,
                  > >>> kassa bahutara.m apu~n~nan?ti?
                  > >>> The king said: "Venerable Nagasena, for whom is the
                  > >>> greater demerit, one who knowingly does evil, or one
                  > >>> who does evil unknowingly??
                  > >>
                  > >
                  > > _________________________________________________________________
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                  > > [Homepage] http://www.tipitaka.net
                  > > [Send Message] pali@yahoogroups.com
                  > > Paaliga.na - a community for Pali students
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                  >
                  >------------
                  >"I know what you're thinking about but it isn't so, nohow.
                  >Contrariwise, if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would
                  >be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic."
                  >
                  >
                  >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >

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                • Michael Beisert
                  Nina, (and RobertK), As a principle I can fully understand that ignorance leads to suffering and further rebirth, and that the forerunner of the way to
                  Message 8 of 14 , Nov 2, 2003
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                    Nina, (and RobertK),

                    As a principle I can fully understand that ignorance leads to suffering and
                    further rebirth, and that the forerunner of the way to liberation is right
                    understanding. So within that framework the answer by Nagasena makes perfect
                    sense. The same applies to the passages quoted by RobertK from the
                    commentaries.

                    But I still have some difficulty in accepting that one specific unwholesome
                    deed may have a stronger vipaka for an ignorant person. I like your quotes
                    from the Abhidhamma and using that logic the same mental factors
                    (cetasikas), influenced by the same roots, would be present in the same
                    unwholesome deed performed by the dhamma practitioner (assuming he /she is
                    still a putujana) and an ignorant person. So, if the mental constituents are
                    exactly the same what would make the vipaka stronger for one and not the
                    other? My logic is that the feelings of guilt/remorse will explain the
                    different intensity of vipaka. And the dhamma practitioner will likely have
                    stronger feelings of guilt/remorse that the ignorant person. Over time the
                    story could be different because the ignorant person due to his/her
                    ignorance might develop that deed into a habit and this will bring far
                    greater harm.

                    Metta
                    Michael
                    orkom <nilo@...>
                    >Reply-To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
                    >To: <Pali@yahoogroups.com>
                    >Subject: Re: [Pali] Pali - ignorance
                    >Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2003 16:17:02 +0100
                    >
                    >Dear Michael,
                    >to recapitulate: from Milinda's questions: >>> The king said: "Venerable
                    >Nagasena, for whom is the greater demerit, one who knowingly does evil, or
                    >one who does evil unknowingly?>
                    >Nagasena's answer was one who does evil unknowingly.
                    >
                    >op 01-11-2003 17:45 schreef Michael Beisert op mbeisert@...:
                    > >
                    > > On the surface this seems like a very easy question but in fact it is
                    >very
                    > > complex. ..... the answer to your question is no, someone who has not
                    >heard
                    >the
                    > > Dhamma and commits an akusala deed is in a better position than someone
                    >who
                    > > knows the Dhamma....
                    >N: It is complex. Let us go to the roots of all akusala. There are three
                    >akusala hetus or roots which are the foundation of akusala citta. I do not
                    >know the Portuguese word for root, in French it is racine. In Pali the
                    >tersm
                    >hetu and muula are used. The three are: lobha (greed) dosa (aversion or
                    >hate) and moha (ignorance or delusion). Another word for moha is avijjaa.
                    >There are akusala cittas rooted in moha and lobha, rooted in moha and dosa
                    >and rooted in moha alone. But all akusala cittas have moha as their root.
                    >Dhammapada vs 251: <...there is no net like delusion>, and in the Ch on
                    >taints, vs. 243:... <and a worse taint than these is ignorance, the
                    >greatest
                    >taint.>
                    >We become entangled in ignorance, it is like a net.
                    >Ignorance is not knowing realities as they are, not knowing what is kusala,
                    >what is akusala, not knowing the four noble Truths. It is like blindness,
                    >like darkness.
                    >There are different intensities, degrees of the akusala hetus. When the
                    >degree of moha is stronger, there is a higher degree of akusala. The
                    >akusala hetu that arises together with the citta conditions the
                    >accompanying
                    >mental factors (cetasikas) and the citta. It motivates different degrees of
                    >unwholesome deeds.
                    >I could recommend the Wheel, no 251-253, by Ven. Nyanaponika: "the Roots of
                    >Good and Evil ".
                    >
                    >M: we should remember
                    > > that the workings of kamma can be very complex and just as a reminder
                    >look
                    > > at the Lonaphala Sutta (AN III.99).
                    >N: Yes, only a Buddha thoroughly penetrates the workings of kamma and
                    >result.
                    >This sutta is very complex, but does not contradict the fact that more
                    >ignorance conditions the akusala to be more intense. Decisive here is
                    >leading the holy life. The Buddha teaches here about being in the cycle and
                    >going out of the cycle, the commentary states.
                    >M: Now the question becomes really complex when you throw in the skilful
                    > > means� so highly praised in the Mahayana tradition. And using a skilful
                    > > means interpretation of a certain deed, what apparently would be an
                    >akusala
                    > > deed could be regarded as kusala. And this really opens the door for any
                    > > actions to be interpreted anyway you want and to atribute any kamma
                    > > consequences you want.
                    >N: Then there is more and more ignorance, as I see it. Metta is always
                    >kusala, violence is always akusala. Nobody in the world can change akusala
                    >into kusala. The three beautiful roots are: alobha, adosa and amoha or
                    >pa~n~naa.
                    >Nina.
                    >
                    >

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                  • nina van gorkom
                    Dear Michael, As you also said, the point discussed in Milinda s questions was whether akusala is stronger when there is more ignorance. The point was not
                    Message 9 of 14 , Nov 3, 2003
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                      Dear Michael,
                      As you also said, the point discussed in Milinda's questions was whether
                      akusala is stronger when there is more ignorance. The point was not whether
                      there is stronger vipaka for an ignorant person. Kamma produces vipaka, but
                      there are other conditions necessary for kamma to produce vipaka. In the Co.
                      to the Vibhanga, the Dispeller of Delusion, ch 16, Classification of
                      Knowledge, 2198 there is mentioned: destiny, gati, substratum, upadhi, one's
                      means or conduct, payoga, kaala, time. These can be favorable, sampatti or
                      unfavorable, vipatti. For example when you are born in time of war or in a
                      country where there is hunger, there is more opportunity for akusala kamma
                      to produce akusala vipaaka and less opportunity for kusala vipaaka. This
                      subject is complex, many condiitons play their part.
                      There were countless past lives and we do not know which kamma will produce
                      result at which time. But so long as there is ignorance we are in the cycle
                      and we have to receive vipakaa.
                      Nina.
                      op 02-11-2003 18:04 schreef Michael Beisert op mbeisert@...:

                      > I still have some difficulty in accepting that one specific unwholesome
                      > deed may have a stronger vipaka for an ignorant person. I like your quotes
                      > from the Abhidhamma and using that logic the same mental factors
                      > (cetasikas), influenced by the same roots, would be present in the same
                      > unwholesome deed performed by the dhamma practitioner (assuming he /she is
                      > still a putujana) and an ignorant person.
                    • Michael Beisert
                      Nina, “The point was not whether there is stronger vipaka for an ignorant person.” Sorry then, it seems I misunderstood your question … What was the
                      Message 10 of 14 , Nov 3, 2003
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                        Nina,

                        �The point was not whether there is stronger vipaka for an ignorant person.�

                        Sorry then, it seems I misunderstood your question � What was the question
                        again? I am lost now.

                        I am not sure about �akusala is stronger when there is more ignorance�
                        either ignorance is present as a mental factor or it is not present. I don�t
                        see this �relative strength of ignorance� in the texts. Where do you find
                        this?

                        I understand your considerations about how vipaka can be produced. But I
                        thought we should take a sort of scientific approach and simplify the
                        variables otherwise it is impossible to get any answer.

                        Metta
                        Michael



                        >From: nina van gorkom <nilo@...>
                        >Reply-To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
                        >To: <Pali@yahoogroups.com>
                        >Subject: Re: [Pali] Pali - ignorance
                        >Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2003 19:06:08 +0100
                        >
                        >Dear Michael,
                        >As you also said, the point discussed in Milinda's questions was whether
                        >akusala is stronger when there is more ignorance. The point was not whether
                        >there is stronger vipaka for an ignorant person. Kamma produces vipaka, but
                        >there are other conditions necessary for kamma to produce vipaka. In the
                        >Co.
                        >to the Vibhanga, the Dispeller of Delusion, ch 16, Classification of
                        >Knowledge, 2198 there is mentioned: destiny, gati, substratum, upadhi,
                        >one's
                        >means or conduct, payoga, kaala, time. These can be favorable, sampatti or
                        >unfavorable, vipatti. For example when you are born in time of war or in a
                        >country where there is hunger, there is more opportunity for akusala kamma
                        >to produce akusala vipaaka and less opportunity for kusala vipaaka. This
                        >subject is complex, many condiitons play their part.
                        >There were countless past lives and we do not know which kamma will produce
                        >result at which time. But so long as there is ignorance we are in the cycle
                        >and we have to receive vipakaa.
                        >Nina.
                        >op 02-11-2003 18:04 schreef Michael Beisert op mbeisert@...:
                        >
                        > > I still have some difficulty in accepting that one specific unwholesome
                        > > deed may have a stronger vipaka for an ignorant person. I like your
                        >quotes
                        > > from the Abhidhamma and using that logic the same mental factors
                        > > (cetasikas), influenced by the same roots, would be present in the same
                        > > unwholesome deed performed by the dhamma practitioner (assuming he /she
                        >is
                        > > still a putujana) and an ignorant person.
                        >

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                      • nina van gorkom
                        Dear Michael, ... akusala citta. When ignorance is strong you burn yourself more:
                        Message 11 of 14 , Nov 4, 2003
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                          Dear Michael,
                          op 03-11-2003 20:08 schreef Michael Beisert op mbeisert@...:

                          > “The point was not whether there is stronger vipaka for an ignorant person.
                          >
                          > Sorry then, it seems I misunderstood your question … What was the question
                          > again? I am lost now.
                          >N: The quote from the Milinda questions did not deal with vipaka. It dealt with
                          akusala citta. When ignorance is strong you burn yourself more:< ,"Indeed,
                          great king, in the same way the greater demerit is for him who does evil not
                          knowing.> Ignorance arises with each akusala citta, but it can be of
                          different degrees. When you have no notion of what is akusala the evil you
                          commit is of a higher degree.
                          M: I am not sure about akusala is stronger when there is more ignorance’
                          > either ignorance is present as a mental factor or it is not present. I don’t
                          > see this relative strength of ignorance’ in the texts. Where do you find
                          > this?
                          N: There are different degrees of akusala which is always accompanied by
                          ignorance: ignorance of what is kusala, what is akusala, ignorance of the
                          danger of akusala and of the benefit of kusala. Ignorance is gradually worn
                          away by those who develop understanding and attain stages of enlightenment,
                          a long process, taking aeons. Only the arahat has completely eradicated
                          ignorance.
                          In your own life you can notice that dosa sometimes is a slight uneasiness,
                          and sometimes a stronger aversion such as anger. Ignorance is very coarse
                          when one does not see that akusala is harmful, for instance if one at all
                          costs is after one's own pleasure and sees this as one's goal. A person
                          might even kill other beings, lie and steal all for his own sake. Ignorance
                          conditions wrong view which may be very dangerous, such as the views of
                          Makkhali Gosaala, Puura.na Kassapa and Ajita Kesakambali. If one propagates
                          that akusala kamma does not bring any result it is most harmful for society.
                          See the Brahmajaalasutta for different kinds of wrong view conditioned by
                          coarse ignorance.
                          We do not advocate such theories, but there are other forms of ignorance,
                          less coarse, but I would not call them subtle. In the Kindred Sayings IV,
                          Second Fifty, Ch I, §53 we read that a monk said:
                          <'By how knowing, lord, by how seeing does ignorance vanish and knowledge
                          arise?'
                          'In him that knows and sees the eye as impermanent... that knows and sees
                          objects... as impermanent, ignorance vanishes and knowledge arises.'
                          The same is said with regard to the other doorways.
                          Ignorance is not seeing the presently arisen dhamma as impermanent, dukkha
                          and anattaa.
                          The sotaapanna has realized the four noble Truths, but there are many
                          degrees of realizing this. He still has akusala, but no longer to the degree
                          of conditioning akusala kamma that can produce an unhappy rebirth. Gradually
                          the three roots are worn away until one reaches arahatship.

                          M: I understand your considerations about how vipaka can be produced. But I
                          > thought we should take a sort of scientific approach and simplify the
                          > variables otherwise it is impossible to get any answer.
                          N: Science has another approach and another goal, it is quite different from
                          the Buddha's teachings which have as the aim to develop understanding so
                          that defilements are gradually eradicated. Kamma and vipaka belong to the
                          "unthinkables", people would become mad when they try to find out which
                          kamma produces which vipaka. We cannot simplify what is the domain of the
                          Buddhas.
                          For us it is more fruitful to begin to understand whether the citta at this
                          moment is kusala or akusala. There is enough ignorance that has to be worn
                          away.
                          Nina.
                        • John Kelly
                          Michael, ... Yes! Guilt & remorse WILL be stronger for the dhamma practitioner - but hiri/otappa (guilt/remorse) is a GOOD thing, thus unwholesome kamma would
                          Message 12 of 14 , Nov 4, 2003
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                            Michael,
                            You said:
                            >My logic is that the feelings of guilt/remorse will
                            >explain the
                            >different intensity of vipaka. And the dhamma
                            >practitioner
                            >will likely have
                            >stronger feelings of guilt/remorse that the ignorant
                            >person. Over time the
                            >story could be different because the ignorant person
                            >due to
                            >his/her
                            >ignorance might develop that deed into a habit and
                            >this
                            >will bring far
                            >greater harm.

                            Yes! Guilt & remorse WILL be stronger for the dhamma
                            practitioner - but hiri/otappa (guilt/remorse) is a
                            GOOD thing, thus unwholesome kamma would be mitigated
                            somewhat for this person.
                            John




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