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Re: [Pali] Re: 'b' for 'v' in Pali Loanwords in Thai

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  • pakdi yanawaro
    Dear Richard, I am no expert in Thai nor in Pali, i am only learning Pali now in the course of the Thai Sanhga. Therefore ,I am not able to further discuss
    Message 1 of 4 , Oct 30, 2003
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      Dear Richard,
      I am no expert in Thai nor in Pali, i am only learning Pali now in the course of the Thai Sanhga. Therefore ,I am not able to further discuss this matter involved in another field beyond my knowledge
      Sorry! Regards,
      Prapakdi

      Richard Wordingham <richard.wordingham@...> wrote:
      --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, pakdi yanawaro <prapakdi@y...> wrote:

      Thank you for replying.

      > Do you know the Thai alphabets and do you have Thai fonts in
      your computer?

      I know the alphabet, but only an outline of its history between the
      ancestral Brahmi alphabet and the modern, extended form. I do have
      Thai fonts installed.

      This posting is best viewed using the Thai encoding, but should still be
      understandable in Western European encoding.

      > Usually we equate Thai and English alphabets as follows : �=b, �
      =p, ��=ph, ��=f, �=bh

      > ����� =vihaara in pali, but pronounced in Thai as vihaan

      The (Thai) Royal Institute Dictionary (RID) (
      http://rirs3.royin.go.th/ridictionary/lookup.html ) derives this word from =

      Pali and Sanskrit, for it is the same in both languages. But the doublet
      ����� "phihaar" /phihaan/ it derives only from Pali, but still gives the Pa=
      li
      original as ����� "vihaara" - not *����� *"bihaara". (I'm using linguists'=

      notation - * denotes a form that is not found; // encloses
      pronunciation; "" encloses spellings - <> confuses some HTML-based
      mail systems; and I use __ for quoted words in the Roman alphabet to
      provide italicisation.)

      > ���� = dhamma(pali) = ��� in sansakrit (By the way,I don't know
      sansakrit) .
      > All ��(� ���) words are derived from sansakrit e.g.����� ���

      Where does ��(� ���) come from? I notice that the RID does *not* use
      it for Sanskrit words. I know it appears in Thai words whose Sanskrit
      originals contain -ar- in a closed syllable.

      I suspect Thai has reintroduced �� (double ro) in some words that
      actually come from Pali. For the benefit of those who cannot view Thai
      characters, I will translitierate it as "RR", though the normal
      transliteration is as "a" or "an". I have ignored the silencing of letters=
      in
      my transliterations here.

      I will first give a simple, typical case that illustrates what you are
      saying. Thai ������ "sawRRkh" /sawan/ seems to come from Sankrit
      _svarga_, not from Pali _sagga_.

      Some words are more difficult - Thai ����� "khRRbh" /khan/ 'womb'
      seems to come from Sanskrit _garbha_, not Pali _gabbha_. (The RID
      doesn't mention the Pali form!) But there is a rare Thai form
      ���� "khRRbh" /khabh/ that sounds as though it originally came from
      Pali.

      The reverse pattern occurs with Thai ���� "phRRkh" /phak/ 'party,
      faction' (doublet ���� "wRRkh" /wak/ 'phrase, section, line of poetry;
      pause, space in writing') and its further doublet
      ����� "phRRkh" /phan/ 'group, class'. The first two sound as though
      they derive from Pali _vagga_, but the last form seems to come from
      Sanskrit _varga_.

      I don't know if this apparent spelling change, the reintroduction of
      double ro, has happened in most loans from Pali. Do you know of many
      examples where it has not? The only example I could think of is the
      rare Thai form ����� "samatth" /samat/ from Pali _samattha_. There is
      a different spelling, ����� "samRRth" /samat/ from Sanskrit
      _samartha_ . They have similar meanings to the commoner form,
      ������ "saamaarth" /saamaat/ 'capable, able'. The form matching Pali
      is so rare that it is not even in the RID! I could only find it in the on=
      -line
      dictionary at thai-language.com ; that dictionary says that the form I
      derive from Sanskrit actually comes from Pali. I will see if I can find ou=
      t
      why the form with double ro is ascribed to Pali, not Sankrit.

      Richard.



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