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Re: it's all about jhanas

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  • rjkjp1
    ... And ... Dear Frank, Certainly only studying Dhamma is of limited value. Still, one of the advantages of such study, including Pali studies, is that we
    Message 1 of 12 , Oct 1, 2003
      --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Frank Kuan <fcckuan@y...> wrote:
      > The buddha goes so far as to say the disciple who
      > neglects jhana practice is "not one who dwells in the
      > dhamma"
      >
      > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an05-073.html
      >
      >
      > "Then there is the case where a monk takes the Dhamma
      > as he has heard & studied it and thinks about it,
      > evaluates it, and examines it with his intellect. He
      > spends the day in Dhamma-thinking. He neglects
      > seclusion. He doesn't commit himself to internal
      > tranquility of awareness. This is called a monk who is
      > keen on thinking, not one who dwells in the Dhamma.
      >
      > Then there is the case where a monk studies the
      > Dhamma... [HOWEVER!] He doesn't spend the day in
      > Dhamma-study. He doesn't neglect seclusion. He commits
      > himself to internal tranquility of awareness. This is
      > called a monk who dwells in the Dhamma.
      >
      > "Now, monk, I have taught you the person who is keen
      > on study, the one who is keen on description, the one
      > who is keen on recitation, the one who is keen on
      > thinking, and the one who dwells in the Dhamma.
      > Whatever a teacher should do -- seeking the welfare of
      > his disciples, out of sympathy for them -- that have I
      > done for you. Over there are the roots of trees; over
      > there, empty dwellings. Practice jhana, monk. Don't be
      > heedless. Don't later fall into regret. This is our
      > message to you."
      And
      >In fact, to this
      >day, I'm still only on lesson 2 of the Gair book, and
      >chapter 4 of the de Silva book, despite my earnest
      >desire to learn more Pali. Why? Because of priorities.

      >_______
      Dear Frank,
      Certainly only studying Dhamma is of limited value. Still, one of the
      advantages of such study, including Pali studies, is that we learn
      about the deeper meaning of phrases such as the one you quote
      above.The Pali (supplied by Jim Anderson) of an almost identical
      phrase:

      "Jhaayatha, Cunda, maa pamaadattha maa pacchaa vippa.tisaarino
      ahuvattha ..." -- M i 46 (near the end of MN 8). Also found at M i
      118 (MN
      19) with 'bhikkhave' instead of Cunda.
      Here, the commentary interprets "Meditate" as "Increase samatha and
      vipassanaa".

      "Samatha~nca vipassana~nca va.d.dhethaa ti vutta.m hoti." --MA ii 195
      (there's a bit more just before this)
      Jim:
      >> I know about this translation of 'jhaayatha'. I find
      >> that it does not
      >> quite agree with the commentary which includes both
      >> samatha and
      >> vipassanaa. That's why I think 'Meditate' is a
      >> better translation than
      >> 'Practice jhana'.

      "Jhaayatha' is a verb in the 2nd person plural with the -tha ending.
      In the
      PED, the verbs are entered in their 3rd pers. sing. forms with the -ti
      ending. So you will have to look for 'jhaayati' for which you will
      find two
      entries. The first one has the following senses: to meditate,
      contemplate,
      think upon, brood over (c. acc.): . . . -- and for the second: to
      burn, to
      be on fire: . . . They are derived from two distinct roots. In the
      commentarial passage from which I quoted "Increase samatha and
      vipassanaa"
      in explaining 'jhaayatha' there is also the following comment that
      helps to
      clarify the difference between samatha and vipassana: "Meditate
      (upanijjhaayatha) on the 38 objects (aaramma.na) with the meditation
      (upanijjhaana) on an object and on aggregates, bases, etc. according
      to
      anicca, etc. with the meditation on a characteristic (lakkha.na)." --
      MA i
      195." end of section by Jim Anderson.
      -----------
      When the texts talk about meditation, jhaya, it is useful to
      know that there are two types.
      I quoted this to Dimitry earlier: The Dhammapada 371 :"Meditate, o
      bhikkhu and be not heedless." (same
      pali phrase as the sutta you quoted above.
      The atthakatha says "o bhikkhus meditate by the two kinds of
      meditative absorptions"
      And the tika notes that this is twofold in "the sense of
      meditative absorption that arises depending on an object and
      meditative absorption that arises dependent on characteristics"
      The tika later explains this by saying that the first is (p506
      note 6 of carter and palihawadana) "the eight attainments
      (jhanas) to be obtained by training the mind in concentrating on
      one of the thirty eight objects such as kasina [or metta, or
      Buddha or Dhamma or breath etc] and the second means 'insight
      wisdom, path and fruit'..to be obtained by reflecting on the
      three characteristics'"endquote

      Now when it says 'reflecting' this means direct insight into the
      actual
      characteristics and conditions of the present moment right up to
      the vipassana nanas and magga and phala, it is far more than only
      thinking about Dhamma.
      THe Dhammapada pradipaya (see p457 of carter and palihawadana) says
      "to consider the coming into being of rupa on account of
      ignorance, craving, kamma and nutrition, and also to see the
      mere characteristics of its instantaneous coming into being,
      without looking for causative aspect; thus one should consider
      the rise of rupa in five ways. Likewise to consider the rise of
      the other 4 khandas in the same way...Thus the rise of the
      pancakkhanda (five aggregates )is seen in 25 ways. To see that
      the rise of the khandas is stopped by abolishing the
      causes:ignorance, craving, kamma and nutrition..in this way the
      cessation of the agregates should be seen" end quote

      As Teng kee pointed out the path out of samsara depends on lakkhana
      jhana - insight into the three characteristics of anicca, dukkha and
      anatta. The jhana labhi after he leaves mundane jhana must also
      develop this type of special samadhi. The sukkha-vipassaka develops
      this profound samadhi without having attained mundane jhana.
      Which is the superior path? Certainly the texts are clear that the
      one who develops both samatha and jhana is the highest. However I
      think we should not despise also the lesser path of the sukkha-
      vipassaka as this too eventually results in the end of rebirth.
      RobertK
    • Frank Kuan
      Hi robert, you wrote: As Teng kee pointed out the path out of samsara depends on lakkhana jhana - insight into the three characteristics of anicca, dukkha and
      Message 2 of 12 , Oct 2, 2003
        Hi robert,

        you wrote:
        As Teng kee pointed out the path out of samsara
        depends on lakkhana
        jhana - insight into the three characteristics of
        anicca, dukkha and
        anatta. The jhana labhi after he leaves mundane jhana
        must also
        develop this type of special samadhi. The
        sukkha-vipassaka develops
        this profound samadhi without having attained mundane
        jhana.
        Which is the superior path? Certainly the texts are
        clear that the
        one who develops both samatha and jhana is the
        highest. However I
        think we should not despise also the lesser path of
        the sukkha-
        vipassaka as this too eventually results in the end of
        rebirth.

        =============================================
        To clear up a few points:
        1. I never said I despise the sukkha-vipassaka. What I
        express is that I doubt that they exist, or if they
        did exist, they existed as a statistical anomaly, and
        did not cultvate some special dry insight only
        techniques that modern Buddhists can follow and bypass
        the foundation of seclusion and samatha.
        2. one can study all the pali, commentaries, and
        subcommentaries until the end of time, but in the
        final analysis, the only valid proof is the
        confirmation from one's own realization experienced
        directly. To this end, we have to carefully scrutinize
        the canon to identify which parts are the most
        authoritative and significant. For example, in the
        early suttas, you would be hard pressed to find any
        references to kasinas and 40 meditation objects. What
        you do find is sutta passages that indicate that of
        the 4 foundations of mindfulness, mindfulness of body
        is the most important, and of the those, mindfulness
        of breath is given special prominence. What this tells
        me is that the serious cultivator should be spending a
        fair amount of their effort engaged in mindfulness of
        body, especially the breath. The early pali suttas
        also say that if we carefully cultivate mindfulness of
        breath, that it would naturally bring all 4
        foundations of mindfulness to fruition, would lead to
        samatha, vipassana, single pointedness of mind and
        induce jhanic absorption. What a wonderful tool! All
        the study of the canon does not equal one minute of
        peace, joy, tranquillity and insight that is easily
        availabe to us from cultivating the breath. This can
        be verified with one's own experience without even
        obtaining jhanic absorption.
        3. The Buddha used the breath, seclusion, tranquillity
        as the fundamental tools. So did the arahants. Even
        taoist and yoga adepts. If there was some method that
        avoided these fundamental steps, and redefined
        "meditation" in some novel way to achieve lofty states
        without doing the work, surely we would know about
        them. There would be as many enlightened beings as
        there are lawyers. Talk about accumulations, or lack
        thereof, is also baffling to me. Certainly some would
        find seclusion and tranquillity easier to cultivate
        than others, but if you don't accumulate now, when are
        you going to accumulate? After you're dead?

        -fk



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      • rjkjp1
        ... __________ Dear Frank, If one has the ability and inclination to develop anapanasati that is great. Still it is good to know that many conditions are
        Message 3 of 12 , Oct 2, 2003
          ---In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Frank Kuan <fcckuan@y...> wrote:
          >
          > 2. one can study all the pali, commentaries, and
          > subcommentaries until the end of time, but in the
          > final analysis, the only valid proof is the
          > confirmation from one's own realization experienced
          > directly. To this end, we have to carefully scrutinize
          > the canon to identify which parts are the most
          > authoritative and significant. For example, in the
          > early suttas, you would be hard pressed to find any
          > references to kasinas and 40 meditation objects. What
          > you do find is sutta passages that indicate that of
          > the 4 foundations of mindfulness, mindfulness of body
          > is the most important, and of the those, mindfulness
          > of breath is given special prominence. What this tells
          > me is that the serious cultivator should be spending a
          > fair amount of their effort engaged in mindfulness of
          > body, especially the breath. The early pali suttas
          > also say that if we carefully cultivate mindfulness of
          > breath, that it would naturally bring all 4
          > foundations of mindfulness to fruition, would lead to
          > samatha, vipassana, single pointedness of mind and
          > induce jhanic absorption. What a wonderful tool! All
          > the study of the canon does not equal one minute of
          > peace, joy, tranquillity and insight that is easily
          > availabe to us from cultivating the breath. This can
          > be verified with one's own experience without even
          > obtaining jhanic absorption.

          __________
          Dear Frank,
          If one has the ability and inclination to develop anapanasati that is
          great. Still it is good to know that many conditions are needed to
          suceed in this: Some meditation subjects need a crosslegged posture,
          erect back, a very quiet place, solitude...
          This is all well explained in the visuddhimagga. In particular this
          applies to anapanasati - breath.
          Also we should know that anapanasati is singled out as being the
          most difficult of all the 40 objects.Here is a passage from the
          Visuddhimagga Viii
          211: "Although any meditation subject, no matter what, is
          successful
          only in one who is mindful and fully aware, yet any meditation
          subject other than this one gets more evident as he goes on
          giving it
          his attention. But this mindfulness of breathing is difficult,
          difficult to develop, a field in which only the minds of
          Buddhas,
          paccekabuddhas and Buddhas sons are at home. It is no trivial
          matter,
          nor can it be cultivated by trivial persons.." (we discussed this on
          pali list last year)
          We might be concentrating on the breath with subtle lobha
          (attachment) not realising that true samatha comes with alobha,
          detachment.

          In many suttas the Buddha was speaking to monks who had vast
          accumulations of panna and other parami. It is not, I believe, that
          the Buddha said that all should take up anapanasati.

          There are other types of samatha - such as Maranasati (meditation
          on death)- that are suitable for all times.
          For example the Anguttara nikaya (Book of the Elevens ii 13 p213
          Mahanama) says about Buddhanusati and Dhammanusati and several other
          samatha objects:
          "` you should develop it as you sit, as you stand, as
          you lie, as you apply yourself to business. You should
          make it grow as you dwell at home in your lodging
          crowded with children"

          In the Samyutta nikaya V (Sayings on stream entry p347
          The great chapter Dhammadina ) 5oo rich merchants
          came to see the Buddha . They asked how they should
          live their lives. The Buddha suggested that they train
          themselves thus:
          "as to those discourses uttered by the Tathagatha,
          deep, deep in meaning, transcendental and concerned
          with the void (about anatta) from time to time we will
          spend our days learning them. That is how you must
          spend your days."

          In the satipatthana sutta the Buddha explains the four foundations of
          mindfulness. These can be cultivated in any position at any time.
          ____

          Frank: Talk about accumulations, or lack
          > thereof, is also baffling to me. Certainly some would
          > find seclusion and tranquillity easier to cultivate
          > than others, but if you don't accumulate now, when are
          > you going to accumulate? After you're dead?
          ____
          It is relevant because this is a Buddha sasana - a very rare event.
          If one develops samatha bhavana that is wonderful.
          Indeed all of us have developed samatha and we must have succeeded in
          gaining jhana in countless lives. This is because of the vast time of
          samsara.
          However only very rarely has there been insight into anatta, into
          the lakkhana (characteristic) of elements. That is why some of us
          believe that we should give stress to this aspect of the Dhamma. The
          Buddha sasana will soon be extinguished and it will be a long time
          before another samma-sammbuddha arises.
          RobertK




          >

          >


          >
          >
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        • nina van gorkom
          Dear Robert and friends, Robert Kirkpatrick wrote:
          Message 4 of 12 , Oct 3, 2003
            Dear Robert and friends,

            Robert Kirkpatrick wrote:

            <Thus we see that the way of using mundane jhana as a
            basis has this
            advantage too. However not all beings have the
            accumulations to
            master the jhanas (I mean genuine jhana, not
            imitation). To use the
            jhanas as basis one must be proficient in them -not
            just attaining
            them a few times- >

            Nina: In the Mahaanidaanasutta (transl Bhikkhu Bodhi) and the Co. there are
            texts about liberated both ways and liberated by insight. At the end of the
            sutta we read what the requirements are for being liberated both ways. It
            shows how difficult it is:<When a bhikkhu attains these eight emancipations
            in forward order, in reverse order, and in both forward and reverse order;
            when he attains them and emerges from them wherever he wants, in whatever
            way he wants, and for as long as he wants, and when, through the destruction
            of the cankers, he here and now enters and dwells in the cankerless
            liberation of mind, liberation by wisdom, having realized it for himself
            with direct knowledge, then he is called a bhikkhu who is liberated both
            ways. And, Ananda, there is no other liberation in both ways higher or more
            sublime than this one."
            The Visuddhimagga describes these as masteries, vasis.
            The co. about the passage <Ananda, when a bhikkhu...is liberated through
            non-clinging, then he is called a bhikkhu liberated by wisdom.>
            Follows an explanation we discussed before: fivefold: dry insight and those
            who attain arahatship after having become established in one of the four
            jhanas.
            The subco: liberated by wisdom. <He is liberated solely by the power of
            wisdom because he does not achieve the eight emancipations and thus lacks
            the power of eminent concentration. Or else, "liberated by wisdom" means
            liberated while understanding; that is, knowing and penetrating the four
            truths in the mode of full understanding, etc. wihtout contact with the
            first jhana, he is "liberated" or distinctively freed by completeing the
            functions (of penetration) by bringing those functions to their climax.
            "Dry insight meditator": one whose insight is dry, rough, and unmoistened,
            lacking the moisture of serenity meditation.
            "Does not dwell suffusing the eight emancipations":this indicates the
            absence of the power of eminent concentration. "Having seen with wisdom":
            this indicates possession of the power of eminent wisdom">
            The meaning of dry insight is interesting. I think of the text that someone
            with dry insight becomes tired, kilamati, while the jhanalaabhi does not
            tire. If someone truly has the skill for jhana it is an advantage, but we
            should not underestimate the vasis, masteries. Now we are further away from
            the Buddha's time. There are texts in the commentaries that arahats with the
            four patiusambhidas will disappear (in this world), and also jhanalabhi
            arahats. All arahats will disappear, and subsequently ariyans of the third,
            second and first stage of enlightenment will disappear, the teachings will
            disappear.
            As Robert reminds us: < The Buddha sasana will soon be extinguished and it
            will be a long time
            before another samma-sammbuddha arises.>
            Nina.
          • Hope Raven
            Our Frank proclaimed: When the moment of death arives, what am I going to need more, expertise in Pali, or razor sharp one pointed concentration? When that
            Message 5 of 12 , Oct 6, 2003
              Our Frank proclaimed:
              "When the moment of death arives, what am I
              going to need more, expertise in Pali, or razor sharp
              one pointed concentration? When that moment comes, I
              intend to tell Mara to kiss my ass while I witness the
              arising and cessation of 5 aggregates for the final
              time."

              Absolutely.
              But nonetheless I've just ordered Warder - maybe if I have enough Pali books
              in my house I can learn the language by osmosis?

              Actually the little Pali that I have managed to learn has mostly come via
              the regular postings to this list of the da Silva and Warder exercises. The
              kindness of the posters - in fact of all the regular contributers here - is
              much appreciated.
              My thanks,
              Hope

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            • rjkjp1
              ... Dear Hope, That is also my main method for pali study. Like you I also pick up bits by reading the other posts. welcome to the group robert
              Message 6 of 12 , Oct 6, 2003
                --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "Hope Raven" <hope_raven@h...> wrote:
                > I've just ordered Warder - maybe if I have enough Pali books
                > in my house I can learn the language by osmosis?
                >
                > ____
                Dear Hope,
                That is also my main method for pali study.

                Like you I also pick up bits by reading the other posts.
                welcome to the group
                robert
              • nina van gorkom
                Dear Hope, ... N: You may be very busy but, it pays to look up the relevant Warder Ch that Jon mentions each time he gives us an exercise. At first I also
                Message 7 of 12 , Oct 7, 2003
                  Dear Hope,
                  op 07-10-2003 03:23 schreef rjkjp1 op rjkjp1@...:

                  > --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "Hope Raven" <hope_raven@h...> wrote:
                  >> I've just ordered Warder - maybe if I have enough Pali books
                  >> in my house I can learn the language by osmosis?
                  N: You may be very busy but, it pays to look up the relevant Warder Ch that
                  Jon mentions each time he gives us an exercise.
                  At first I also thought that I would not need so much grammar, but I found
                  out that even the difference between instrumentalis or ablative can, if we
                  are not precise, twist the meaning. We have to be very precises with the
                  cases. I found out while studying the text of the Buddha's last meal in the
                  Dhamma Study Group. There are many pittfalls. In the course of learning
                  interest will grow. I welcome any discussions on grammar on this list. I
                  learn by discussions.
                  Nina.
                • cheangoo
                  Hi Frank, Robert, Nina, Dimitry and others, Fogive me for butting in so late but I see the thread is still running on the jhanas. I tend to agree largely with
                  Message 8 of 12 , Oct 14, 2003
                    Hi Frank, Robert, Nina, Dimitry and others,

                    Fogive me for butting in so late but I see the thread is still
                    running on the jhanas. I tend to agree largely with Franks'
                    position. The question of whether to jhana or not, and dry vipassana
                    has been hotly debated for many years by meditators and will continue
                    for more. Sometimes all the arguements simply remind me of the
                    Buddha's simile of the blind men trying to describe an elephant.
                    Meditation is to be experienced and not to be argued about. If one
                    wants to follow the jhana way, one should find a teacher who has
                    achieved it and is skilled in it and learn from such a teacher. Same
                    for a vipassana meditation. Such an advice was given by the Buddha
                    in either AN or SN where he said that a monk skilled in samatha
                    should also visit another skilled in insight and learn from him and
                    vice versa.

                    About whether it is important to have jhana or not, I personally
                    think samatha meditation culminating in jhana is an experience no
                    meditator whould forego, no matter how long it takes to achieve.
                    This is obvious from the suttas and the way in which jhanas are
                    described not only by the Buddha but also by Sariputta and other
                    arahants.


                    In an earlier post Robert said that the Visuddhimagga categorized
                    breath meditation as the most difficult of the 40 odd techniques
                    taught by the Buddha. Difficult, yes. But so are all meditation
                    techniques for different people. Meditation can never be easy
                    because it needs striving, consistency, reflection and
                    experimentation. The Buddha taught anapanasati as one of central
                    meditation topics, one that he used himself on the night of his
                    enlightenment. He wouldn't have taught it if it was impossible for
                    people to practice.

                    Then about accumulation of good kamma, and how times have
                    deteriorated in these declining years of the Sasana - that's all
                    Commentary staff. The suttas never say any such thing. What the
                    Buddha said was that as long as we follow the Noble Eightfold Path
                    persistently and correctly, we should get there some time. The
                    Buddha knew hemun beings' minds. He taught us to understand our own
                    minds and how to work with it. Have the minds of human beings
                    changed since 2500 years ago? I think not. That's why the Dhamma is
                    timeless.

                    I am not a follower of the Commentaries. I have not tried to start
                    reading the Vidsuddhimagga, because I find the suttas complete and
                    adequate. While there may be odd statements here and there that are
                    not satisfactorily understood, the central theme of Dhamma and
                    practice stands firm and clear and provides enough of a guide to
                    use. Commentaries are good if they help increase understanding and
                    practice but I have not found any urge from what I read about other's
                    postings and explanations of the Commentaries. From such postings,
                    for example, of Nina's painstaking time and effort in this group, I
                    see three aspects (a)when the commentaries expand on individual words
                    e.g. he walked up meaning he waited for the Buddha toi leqve and then
                    walked up ... I find no additional value in understanding the Dhamma
                    from such commentaries. (b)when the commentaries explains some simile
                    and then adds one more of their own e.g. like a lion king, like this
                    and that, getting more and more extravagant with each example, I can
                    only imagine that the audience to which the commentaries were
                    addressed must have been very simple village folk who need the
                    devotional ardour to be stoked to flaming level. Such commentariesd
                    do not add to the value I already place on the suttas. (c)when the
                    commentaries comment on meditation methods and ways of practice, I
                    find this is often confusing and unnecessary. Because meditation is
                    something to experience not to intellectualize about. I find many of
                    the arguements on this thread tend to follow rational lines, meaning
                    each person is appealing to some understanding from our intellectual
                    mind. Yet meditation experience, especially jhanas do not fit such
                    restrictions. The Buddha said that the power and range of jhanas is
                    one of the four imponderables. Ajahn Brahm teaches that in jhana one
                    never experience what one expects. Maybe that's why jhana experience
                    and the reflection after emerging from then are so powerful to cut
                    off the deep underlying tendencies of greed hatred and delusion.

                    Wth metta to all,
                    Khaik-Cheang Oo


                    --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" <rjkjp1@y...> wrote:
                    > --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Frank Kuan <fcckuan@y...> wrote:
                    > > The buddha goes so far as to say the disciple who
                    > > neglects jhana practice is "not one who dwells in the
                    > > dhamma"
                    > >
                    > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an05-073.html
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > "Then there is the case where a monk takes the Dhamma
                    > > as he has heard & studied it and thinks about it,
                    > > evaluates it, and examines it with his intellect. He
                    > > spends the day in Dhamma-thinking. He neglects
                    > > seclusion. He doesn't commit himself to internal
                    > > tranquility of awareness. This is called a monk who is
                    > > keen on thinking, not one who dwells in the Dhamma.
                    > >
                    > > Then there is the case where a monk studies the
                    > > Dhamma... [HOWEVER!] He doesn't spend the day in
                    > > Dhamma-study. He doesn't neglect seclusion. He commits
                    > > himself to internal tranquility of awareness. This is
                    > > called a monk who dwells in the Dhamma.
                    > >
                    > > "Now, monk, I have taught you the person who is keen
                    > > on study, the one who is keen on description, the one
                    > > who is keen on recitation, the one who is keen on
                    > > thinking, and the one who dwells in the Dhamma.
                    > > Whatever a teacher should do -- seeking the welfare of
                    > > his disciples, out of sympathy for them -- that have I
                    > > done for you. Over there are the roots of trees; over
                    > > there, empty dwellings. Practice jhana, monk. Don't be
                    > > heedless. Don't later fall into regret. This is our
                    > > message to you."
                    > And
                    > >In fact, to this
                    > >day, I'm still only on lesson 2 of the Gair book, and
                    > >chapter 4 of the de Silva book, despite my earnest
                    > >desire to learn more Pali. Why? Because of priorities.
                    >
                    > >_______
                    > Dear Frank,
                    > Certainly only studying Dhamma is of limited value. Still, one of
                    the
                    > advantages of such study, including Pali studies, is that we learn
                    > about the deeper meaning of phrases such as the one you quote
                    > above.The Pali (supplied by Jim Anderson) of an almost identical
                    > phrase:
                    >
                    > "Jhaayatha, Cunda, maa pamaadattha maa pacchaa vippa.tisaarino
                    > ahuvattha ..." -- M i 46 (near the end of MN 8). Also found at M i
                    > 118 (MN
                    > 19) with 'bhikkhave' instead of Cunda.
                    > Here, the commentary interprets "Meditate" as "Increase samatha and
                    > vipassanaa".
                    >
                    > "Samatha~nca vipassana~nca va.d.dhethaa ti vutta.m hoti." --MA ii
                    195
                    > (there's a bit more just before this)
                    > Jim:
                    > >> I know about this translation of 'jhaayatha'. I find
                    > >> that it does not
                    > >> quite agree with the commentary which includes both
                    > >> samatha and
                    > >> vipassanaa. That's why I think 'Meditate' is a
                    > >> better translation than
                    > >> 'Practice jhana'.
                    >
                    > "Jhaayatha' is a verb in the 2nd person plural with the -tha
                    ending.
                    > In the
                    > PED, the verbs are entered in their 3rd pers. sing. forms with the -
                    ti
                    > ending. So you will have to look for 'jhaayati' for which you will
                    > find two
                    > entries. The first one has the following senses: to meditate,
                    > contemplate,
                    > think upon, brood over (c. acc.): . . . -- and for the second: to
                    > burn, to
                    > be on fire: . . . They are derived from two distinct roots. In the
                    > commentarial passage from which I quoted "Increase samatha and
                    > vipassanaa"
                    > in explaining 'jhaayatha' there is also the following comment that
                    > helps to
                    > clarify the difference between samatha and vipassana: "Meditate
                    > (upanijjhaayatha) on the 38 objects (aaramma.na) with the meditation
                    > (upanijjhaana) on an object and on aggregates, bases, etc.
                    according
                    > to
                    > anicca, etc. with the meditation on a characteristic (lakkha.na)." -
                    -
                    > MA i
                    > 195." end of section by Jim Anderson.
                    > -----------
                    > When the texts talk about meditation, jhaya, it is useful to
                    > know that there are two types.
                    > I quoted this to Dimitry earlier: The Dhammapada 371 :"Meditate, o
                    > bhikkhu and be not heedless." (same
                    > pali phrase as the sutta you quoted above.
                    > The atthakatha says "o bhikkhus meditate by the two kinds of
                    > meditative absorptions"
                    > And the tika notes that this is twofold in "the sense of
                    > meditative absorption that arises depending on an object and
                    > meditative absorption that arises dependent on characteristics"
                    > The tika later explains this by saying that the first is (p506
                    > note 6 of carter and palihawadana) "the eight attainments
                    > (jhanas) to be obtained by training the mind in concentrating on
                    > one of the thirty eight objects such as kasina [or metta, or
                    > Buddha or Dhamma or breath etc] and the second means 'insight
                    > wisdom, path and fruit'..to be obtained by reflecting on the
                    > three characteristics'"endquote
                    >
                    > Now when it says 'reflecting' this means direct insight into the
                    > actual
                    > characteristics and conditions of the present moment right up to
                    > the vipassana nanas and magga and phala, it is far more than only
                    > thinking about Dhamma.
                    > THe Dhammapada pradipaya (see p457 of carter and palihawadana) says
                    > "to consider the coming into being of rupa on account of
                    > ignorance, craving, kamma and nutrition, and also to see the
                    > mere characteristics of its instantaneous coming into being,
                    > without looking for causative aspect; thus one should consider
                    > the rise of rupa in five ways. Likewise to consider the rise of
                    > the other 4 khandas in the same way...Thus the rise of the
                    > pancakkhanda (five aggregates )is seen in 25 ways. To see that
                    > the rise of the khandas is stopped by abolishing the
                    > causes:ignorance, craving, kamma and nutrition..in this way the
                    > cessation of the agregates should be seen" end quote
                    >
                    > As Teng kee pointed out the path out of samsara depends on lakkhana
                    > jhana - insight into the three characteristics of anicca, dukkha
                    and
                    > anatta. The jhana labhi after he leaves mundane jhana must also
                    > develop this type of special samadhi. The sukkha-vipassaka develops
                    > this profound samadhi without having attained mundane jhana.
                    > Which is the superior path? Certainly the texts are clear that the
                    > one who develops both samatha and jhana is the highest. However I
                    > think we should not despise also the lesser path of the sukkha-
                    > vipassaka as this too eventually results in the end of rebirth.
                    > RobertK
                  • rjkjp1
                    Dear Khaik-Cheang Oo, ... ____ I appreciate you continuing the discussion, please add more.I just add something on this point for now: ... _____ From the sutta
                    Message 9 of 12 , Oct 14, 2003
                      Dear Khaik-Cheang Oo,
                      In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "cheangoo" <cheangoo@h...> wrote:
                      > Hi Frank, Robert, Nina, Dimitry and others,
                      >
                      > Fogive me for butting in so late but I see the thread is still
                      > running on the jhanas.
                      ____
                      I appreciate you continuing the discussion, please add more.I just
                      add something on this point for now:
                      ____

                      >
                      > Then about accumulation of good kamma, and how times have
                      > deteriorated in these declining years of the Sasana - that's all
                      > Commentary stuff. The suttas never say any such thing.

                      _____
                      From the sutta Pitaka
                      Samyutta Nikaya IX (20)7
                      p708 of Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation

                      The Peg
                      "Monks, there once was a time when the
                      Dasarahas
                      had a large drum called 'Summoner.' Whenever Summoner was split,
                      the
                      Dasarahas inserted another peg in it, until the time came when
                      Summoner's original wooden body had disappeared and only a
                      conglomeration of pegs remained.
                      "In the same way, in the course of the future there will be
                      monks who
                      won't listen when discourses that are words of the Tathagata --
                      deep,
                      deep in their meaning, transcendent, connected with emptiness --
                      are
                      being recited. They won't lend ear, won't set their hearts on
                      knowing
                      them, won't regard these teachings as worth grasping or
                      mastering.
                      But they will listen when discourses that are literary works --
                      the
                      works of poets, elegant in sound, elegant in rhetoric, the work
                      of
                      outsiders, words of disciples -- are recited. They will lend ear
                      and
                      set their hearts on knowing them. They will regard these
                      teachings as
                      worth grasping & mastering.

                      "In this way the disappearance of the discourses that are words
                      of
                      the Tathagata -- deep, deep in their meaning, transcendent,
                      connected
                      with emptiness -- will come about.

                      "Thus you should train yourselves: 'We will listen when
                      discourses
                      that are words of the Tathagata -- deep, deep in their meaning,
                      transcendent, connected with emptiness -- are being recited. We
                      will
                      lend ear, will set our hearts on knowing them, will regard these

                      teachings as worth grasping & mastering.' That's how you should
                      train
                      yourselves."
                      _________
                      >
                      > I am not a follower of the Commentaries. I have not tried to start
                      > reading the Vidsuddhimagga, because I find the suttas complete and
                      > adequate. >
                      > ________
                      Anyway I add something from the commentary to the above sutta:
                      The commentary notes that this means deep teachings such as
                      those dealing with emptiness(sunnatapatisamyutta), explaining
                      mere phenomena devoid of a being (sattasunnata-dhammamattam eva
                      pakasaka)
                      [like the whole of the Abhidhamma? -robert]
                      RobertK
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