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Re[2]: [Pali] Re: Necessity of jhanas: panna-vimutto and sukkhavipassako

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  • Dimitry A. Ivakhnenko (������� ���������
    Ong Teng Kee, OTK You said kitagiri sutta com said sukkavipasaka are without OTK jhana. I said sukkhavipassakaa are with jhana. OTK Please learn pali
    Message 1 of 36 , Sep 28, 2003
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      Ong Teng Kee,

      OTK> You said kitagiri sutta com said sukkavipasaka are without
      OTK> jhana.

      I said sukkhavipassakaa are with jhana.

      OTK> Please learn pali correctly-this com mentioned 5 arahant
      OTK> ,it means 4 arahant with each one type of jhana plus the fifth
      OTK> one without jhana.

      Kitagiri sutta commentary says:

      Pa~n~naavimuttoti pa~n~naaya vimutto. So sukkhavipassako, catuuhi
      jhaanehi vu.t.thaaya arahatta.m pattaa cattaaro caati imesa.m vasena
      pa~ncavidhova hoti. Paa.li panettha a.t.thavimokkhapa.tikkhepavaseneva
      aagataa. Yathaaha- "na heva kho a.t.tha vimokkhe kaayena phusitvaa
      viharati, pa~n~naaya cassa disvaa aasavaa parikkhii.naa honti. Aya.m
      vuccati puggalo pa~n~naavimutto"ti.

      Thank you for correction, it seems you are right.

      OTK> The theory came from putta sutta but not buddhaghosa.

      Putta sutta (AN 2.87) says:

      "Katha~nca, bhikkhave, puggalo sama.napu.n.dariiko hoti? Idha,
      bhikkhave, bhikkhu aasavaana.m khayaa anaasava.m cetovimutti.m
      pa~n~naavimutti.m di.t.theva dhamme saya.m abhi~n~naa sacchikatvaa
      upasampajja viharati, no ca kho a.t.tha vimokkhe kaayena phusitvaa
      viharati. Eva.m kho, bhikkhave, puggalo sama.napu.n.dariiko hoti.

      Bhikkhus, who is the bloomed recluse?
      Here, bhikkhus, the bhikkhu has destroyed desires, released the mind
      from desires and released through wisdom, here and now having realized
      abides. He has not experienced the eight releases with the body.
      Bhikkhus, this is the bloomed recluse

      http://metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/4Anguttara-Nikaya/Anguttara2/4-catukkanipata/009-macalavaggo-e.htm

      Surely one released through wisdom has not reached all eight
      emancipations, but only few of them.

      So the theory of sukkhavipassaka came from Ven. Buddhaghosa.

      OTK> Again buddhaghosa and dhammapala recorded down that it is not recommeded for
      OTK> sukhavipasa because it is too hard.

      Going without jhana is indeed very tiresome.

      Mettaya, Dimitry
    • Dimitry A. Ivakhnenko (������� ��������
      Dear Robert, Thank you for translation. According to this passage the way of sukkhavipassaka is quite difficult. Are there any certain examples of
      Message 36 of 36 , Oct 2, 2003
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        Dear Robert,

        Thank you for translation. According to this passage the way of
        sukkhavipassaka is quite difficult.

        Are there any certain examples of sukkhavipassaka in the Tipitaka?

        r> However not all beings have the accumulations to
        r> master the jhanas (I mean genuine jhana, not imitation).

        Certainly not all - peta can't do it.
        Yet in my opinion any person who is able to fall in love deeply, is able as
        well to develop more skillful jhana.

        "Lakkhana jhana" is a part and parcel of overall Buddhist jhana practice.

        Dimitry
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