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Re: [Pali] Re: question about monk, gold and money in Vinaya

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  • cbn
    Dear all anumodana, recently i do have a serious discussion on this matter with many Theravadan monks in Indonesia. pro and cons arose, should greatly
    Message 1 of 16 , Aug 2, 2003
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      Dear all anumodana,
      recently i do have a serious discussion on this matter with many Theravadan
      monks in Indonesia. pro and cons arose, should greatly appreciate if you
      could give some info when i will ask you some info next time.

      muditacittena,
      selamat

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "christine_forsyth" <cforsyth@...>
      To: <Pali@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Friday, August 01, 2003 3:14 AM
      Subject: [Pali] Re: question about monk, gold and money in Vinaya


      > Dear Selamat and Group,
      >
      > I don't see Piya's article or a link - where should I be looking?
      > Also, here is the sutta Lennart mentioned.
      >
      > metta and peace,
      > Christine
      > ---The trouble is that you think you have time---
      > ==================================================
      > Samyutta Nikaya 42 Gamanisamyutta "10 Maniculaka" The Connected
      > Discourses of the Buddha. A New Translation of the Samyutta Nikaya by
      > Bhikkhu Bodhi p.1346
      >
      > On one occasion the Blessed One was dwelling at Rajagaha in the
      > Bamboo Grove, the Squirrel Sanctuary. Now on that occasion the
      > members of the king's retinue had assembled in the royal palace and
      > were sitting together when the following conversaion arose:
      > "Gold and silver are allowable for the ascetics following the Sakyan
      > son; the ascetics following the Sakyan son consent to gold and
      > silver; the ascetics following the Sakyan son accept gold and silver."
      > Now on that occasion Maniculaka the headman was sitting in that
      > assembly. Then Maniculaka the headman said to that assembly: "Do not
      > speak thus, masters. Gold and silver are not allowable for the
      > ascetics following the Sakyan son; the ascetics following the Sakyan
      > son do not consent to gold and silver; the ascetics following the
      > Sakyan son do not accept gold and silver. They have renounced
      > jewellery and gold; they have given up the use of gold and silver."
      > [350] And Maniculaka was able to convince that assembly.
      > Then Maniculaka approached the Blessed One, paid homange to him, and
      > sat down to one side. Sitting to one side, he reported to the
      > Blessed One all that had happened, adding: "I hope, venerable sir,
      > that when I answered thus I stated what has been said by the Blessed
      > One and did not misrepresent him with what is contrary to fact; that
      > I explained in accordance with the Dhamma, and that no reasonable
      > consequence of my statement gives ground for criticism."
      > "For sure, headman, when you answered thus you stated what has been
      > said by me and did not misrepresent me with what is contrary to fact;
      > you explained in accordance with the Dhamma, and no reasonable
      > consequence of your statement gives ground for criticism. For,
      > headman, gold and silver are not allowable for the ascetics following
      > the Sakyan son; the ascetics following the Sakyan son do not consent
      > to gold and silver; the ascetics following the Sakyan son do not
      > accept gold and silver. They have renounced jewellery and gold; they
      > have given up the use of gold and silver. If gold and silver are
      > allowable for anyone, the five cords of sensual pleasure are
      > allowable for him. If the five cords of sensual pleasure are
      > allowable for anyone, you can definitely consider him to be one who
      > does not have the character of an ascetic or of a follower of the
      > Sakyan son.
      > "Further, headman, I say this: 'Straw may be sought by one needing
      > straw; timber may be sought by one needing timber; a cart may be
      > sought by one needing a cart; a workman may be sought by one needing
      > a workman'.
      > But I do not say that there is any method by which gold and silver
      > may be consented to or sought."
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
      > [Homepage] http://www.tipitaka.net
      > [Send Message] pali@yahoogroups.com
      > Paaliga.na - a community for Pali students
      > Yahoo! Groups members can set their delivery options to daily digest or
      web only.
      >
      > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
      >
      >
      >
    • sese2k3
      Dear Piya, I have received your paper of Monastic and Money in my email. Thank you very much for your help. But I have some confusion about the fonts that
      Message 2 of 16 , Aug 3, 2003
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        Dear Piya,

        I have received your paper of "Monastic and Money" in my email.
        Thank you very much for your help.
        But I have some confusion about the fonts that you mentioned in our
        groups mail. Is "Times Norman" same with "Times New Roman" ? If it
        isn't, can you help me from what websites I can install it ?

        Sukhi,

        Sese


        --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "Piya Tan" <libris@s...> wrote:
        > Dear Group,
        >
        > Those who have requested for the paper of "Monastics and Money" and
        received
        > it, please note that you have to install "Times Norman" fonts in
        your
        > computer so that all the Pali words read correctly.
        >
        > Sukhi
        >
        > P
        > ----- Original Message -----
        > From: "Piya Tan" <libris@s...>
        > To: <Pali@yahoogroups.com>
        > Sent: Friday, August 01, 2003 12:00 PM
        > Subject: Re: [Pali] Re: question about monk, gold and money in
        Vinaya
        >
        >
        > > Dear Christine,
        > >
        > > Is this what you are looking for as attached?
        > >
        > > Sukhi.
        > > ----- Original Message -----
        > > From: "christine_forsyth" <cforsyth@v...>
        > > To: <Pali@yahoogroups.com>
        > > Sent: Friday, August 01, 2003 4:14 AM
        > > Subject: [Pali] Re: question about monk, gold and money in Vinaya
        > >
        > >
        > > > Dear Selamat and Group,
        > > >
        > > > I don't see Piya's article or a link - where should I be
        looking?
        > > > Also, here is the sutta Lennart mentioned.
        > > >
        > > > metta and peace,
        > > > Christine
        > > > ---The trouble is that you think you have time---
        > > > ==================================================
        > > > Samyutta Nikaya 42 Gamanisamyutta "10 Maniculaka" The Connected
        > > > Discourses of the Buddha. A New Translation of the Samyutta
        Nikaya by
        > > > Bhikkhu Bodhi p.1346
        > > >
        > > > On one occasion the Blessed One was dwelling at Rajagaha in the
        > > > Bamboo Grove, the Squirrel Sanctuary. Now on that occasion the
        > > > members of the king's retinue had assembled in the royal palace
        and
        > > > were sitting together when the following conversaion arose:
        > > > "Gold and silver are allowable for the ascetics following the
        Sakyan
        > > > son; the ascetics following the Sakyan son consent to gold and
        > > > silver; the ascetics following the Sakyan son accept gold and
        silver."
        > > > Now on that occasion Maniculaka the headman was sitting in that
        > > > assembly. Then Maniculaka the headman said to that
        assembly: "Do not
        > > > speak thus, masters. Gold and silver are not allowable for the
        > > > ascetics following the Sakyan son; the ascetics following the
        Sakyan
        > > > son do not consent to gold and silver; the ascetics following
        the
        > > > Sakyan son do not accept gold and silver. They have renounced
        > > > jewellery and gold; they have given up the use of gold and
        silver."
        > > > [350] And Maniculaka was able to convince that assembly.
        > > > Then Maniculaka approached the Blessed One, paid homange to
        him, and
        > > > sat down to one side. Sitting to one side, he reported to the
        > > > Blessed One all that had happened, adding: "I hope, venerable
        sir,
        > > > that when I answered thus I stated what has been said by the
        Blessed
        > > > One and did not misrepresent him with what is contrary to fact;
        that
        > > > I explained in accordance with the Dhamma, and that no
        reasonable
        > > > consequence of my statement gives ground for criticism."
        > > > "For sure, headman, when you answered thus you stated what has
        been
        > > > said by me and did not misrepresent me with what is contrary to
        fact;
        > > > you explained in accordance with the Dhamma, and no reasonable
        > > > consequence of your statement gives ground for criticism. For,
        > > > headman, gold and silver are not allowable for the ascetics
        following
        > > > the Sakyan son; the ascetics following the Sakyan son do not
        consent
        > > > to gold and silver; the ascetics following the Sakyan son do not
        > > > accept gold and silver. They have renounced jewellery and
        gold; they
        > > > have given up the use of gold and silver. If gold and silver
        are
        > > > allowable for anyone, the five cords of sensual pleasure are
        > > > allowable for him. If the five cords of sensual pleasure are
        > > > allowable for anyone, you can definitely consider him to be one
        who
        > > > does not have the character of an ascetic or of a follower of
        the
        > > > Sakyan son.
        > > > "Further, headman, I say this: 'Straw may be sought by one
        needing
        > > > straw; timber may be sought by one needing timber; a cart may be
        > > > sought by one needing a cart; a workman may be sought by one
        needing
        > > > a workman'.
        > > > But I do not say that there is any method by which gold and
        silver
        > > > may be consented to or sought."
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
        > > > [Homepage] http://www.tipitaka.net
        > > > [Send Message] pali@yahoogroups.com
        > > > Paaliga.na - a community for Pali students
        > > > Yahoo! Groups members can set their delivery options to daily
        digest or
        > > web only.
        > > >
        > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
        > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > >
        > >
        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
        > > [Homepage] http://www.tipitaka.net
        > > [Send Message] pali@yahoogroups.com
        > > Paaliga.na - a community for Pali students
        > > Yahoo! Groups members can set their delivery options to daily
        digest or
        > web only.
        > >
        > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
        http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
        > >
        > >
      • Ong Yong Peng
        Dear Sese, Piya and friends, the Norman fonts can be downloaded here: http://jbe.gold.ac.uk/pali/fonts/ For PC users, the file is tm-norm.zip. For Mac users,
        Message 3 of 16 , Aug 3, 2003
        • 0 Attachment
          Dear Sese, Piya and friends,

          the Norman fonts can be downloaded here:
          http://jbe.gold.ac.uk/pali/fonts/

          For PC users, the file is tm-norm.zip.
          For Mac users, the file is norm_sea.hqx

          Times Norman fonts is different from Times New Roman fonts. It was
          created by professor Norman to display romanised pali fonts with
          diacritics.

          metta,
          Yong Peng

          --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, sese2k3 wrote:
          Is "Times Norman" same with "Times New Roman" ? If it isn't, can you
          help me from what websites I can install it ?
        • Piya Tan
          Dear Sese, You need both. Sukhi. Piya ... From: sese2k3 To: Sent: Sunday, August 03, 2003 6:32 PM Subject: [Pali]
          Message 4 of 16 , Aug 3, 2003
          • 0 Attachment
            Dear Sese,

            You need both.

            Sukhi.

            Piya

            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "sese2k3" <sese2k3@...>
            To: <Pali@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Sunday, August 03, 2003 6:32 PM
            Subject: [Pali] Re: question about monk, gold and money in Vinaya


            > Dear Piya,
            >
            > I have received your paper of "Monastic and Money" in my email.
            > Thank you very much for your help.
            > But I have some confusion about the fonts that you mentioned in our
            > groups mail. Is "Times Norman" same with "Times New Roman" ? If it
            > isn't, can you help me from what websites I can install it ?
            >
            > Sukhi,
            >
            > Sese
            >
            >
            > --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "Piya Tan" <libris@s...> wrote:
            > > Dear Group,
            > >
            > > Those who have requested for the paper of "Monastics and Money" and
            > received
            > > it, please note that you have to install "Times Norman" fonts in
            > your
            > > computer so that all the Pali words read correctly.
            > >
            > > Sukhi
            > >
            > > P
            > > ----- Original Message -----
            > > From: "Piya Tan" <libris@s...>
            > > To: <Pali@yahoogroups.com>
            > > Sent: Friday, August 01, 2003 12:00 PM
            > > Subject: Re: [Pali] Re: question about monk, gold and money in
            > Vinaya
            > >
            > >
            > > > Dear Christine,
            > > >
            > > > Is this what you are looking for as attached?
            > > >
            > > > Sukhi.
            > > > ----- Original Message -----
            > > > From: "christine_forsyth" <cforsyth@v...>
            > > > To: <Pali@yahoogroups.com>
            > > > Sent: Friday, August 01, 2003 4:14 AM
            > > > Subject: [Pali] Re: question about monk, gold and money in Vinaya
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > > Dear Selamat and Group,
            > > > >
            > > > > I don't see Piya's article or a link - where should I be
            > looking?
            > > > > Also, here is the sutta Lennart mentioned.
            > > > >
            > > > > metta and peace,
            > > > > Christine
            > > > > ---The trouble is that you think you have time---
            > > > > ==================================================
            > > > > Samyutta Nikaya 42 Gamanisamyutta "10 Maniculaka" The Connected
            > > > > Discourses of the Buddha. A New Translation of the Samyutta
            > Nikaya by
            > > > > Bhikkhu Bodhi p.1346
            > > > >
            > > > > On one occasion the Blessed One was dwelling at Rajagaha in the
            > > > > Bamboo Grove, the Squirrel Sanctuary. Now on that occasion the
            > > > > members of the king's retinue had assembled in the royal palace
            > and
            > > > > were sitting together when the following conversaion arose:
            > > > > "Gold and silver are allowable for the ascetics following the
            > Sakyan
            > > > > son; the ascetics following the Sakyan son consent to gold and
            > > > > silver; the ascetics following the Sakyan son accept gold and
            > silver."
            > > > > Now on that occasion Maniculaka the headman was sitting in that
            > > > > assembly. Then Maniculaka the headman said to that
            > assembly: "Do not
            > > > > speak thus, masters. Gold and silver are not allowable for the
            > > > > ascetics following the Sakyan son; the ascetics following the
            > Sakyan
            > > > > son do not consent to gold and silver; the ascetics following
            > the
            > > > > Sakyan son do not accept gold and silver. They have renounced
            > > > > jewellery and gold; they have given up the use of gold and
            > silver."
            > > > > [350] And Maniculaka was able to convince that assembly.
            > > > > Then Maniculaka approached the Blessed One, paid homange to
            > him, and
            > > > > sat down to one side. Sitting to one side, he reported to the
            > > > > Blessed One all that had happened, adding: "I hope, venerable
            > sir,
            > > > > that when I answered thus I stated what has been said by the
            > Blessed
            > > > > One and did not misrepresent him with what is contrary to fact;
            > that
            > > > > I explained in accordance with the Dhamma, and that no
            > reasonable
            > > > > consequence of my statement gives ground for criticism."
            > > > > "For sure, headman, when you answered thus you stated what has
            > been
            > > > > said by me and did not misrepresent me with what is contrary to
            > fact;
            > > > > you explained in accordance with the Dhamma, and no reasonable
            > > > > consequence of your statement gives ground for criticism. For,
            > > > > headman, gold and silver are not allowable for the ascetics
            > following
            > > > > the Sakyan son; the ascetics following the Sakyan son do not
            > consent
            > > > > to gold and silver; the ascetics following the Sakyan son do not
            > > > > accept gold and silver. They have renounced jewellery and
            > gold; they
            > > > > have given up the use of gold and silver. If gold and silver
            > are
            > > > > allowable for anyone, the five cords of sensual pleasure are
            > > > > allowable for him. If the five cords of sensual pleasure are
            > > > > allowable for anyone, you can definitely consider him to be one
            > who
            > > > > does not have the character of an ascetic or of a follower of
            > the
            > > > > Sakyan son.
            > > > > "Further, headman, I say this: 'Straw may be sought by one
            > needing
            > > > > straw; timber may be sought by one needing timber; a cart may be
            > > > > sought by one needing a cart; a workman may be sought by one
            > needing
            > > > > a workman'.
            > > > > But I do not say that there is any method by which gold and
            > silver
            > > > > may be consented to or sought."
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
            > > > > [Homepage] http://www.tipitaka.net
            > > > > [Send Message] pali@yahoogroups.com
            > > > > Paaliga.na - a community for Pali students
            > > > > Yahoo! Groups members can set their delivery options to daily
            > digest or
            > > > web only.
            > > > >
            > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
            > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
            > > > [Homepage] http://www.tipitaka.net
            > > > [Send Message] pali@yahoogroups.com
            > > > Paaliga.na - a community for Pali students
            > > > Yahoo! Groups members can set their delivery options to daily
            > digest or
            > > web only.
            > > >
            > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
            > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
            > > >
            > > >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
            > [Homepage] http://www.tipitaka.net
            > [Send Message] pali@yahoogroups.com
            > Paaliga.na - a community for Pali students
            > Yahoo! Groups members can set their delivery options to daily digest or
            web only.
            >
            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
            >
            >
            >
          • selamat@dsgb.or.id
            Ven. Piya, I m sorry, My name is Selamat from Dhamma Study Group Bogor. You just send me the file from other address. anumodana. selamat ... From: Ong Yong
            Message 5 of 16 , Aug 3, 2003
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              Ven. Piya,
              I'm sorry,
              My name is Selamat from Dhamma Study Group Bogor.
              You just send me the file from other address. anumodana.

              selamat
              ------original message------
              From: "Ong Yong Peng" <ypong001@...>
              To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
              Date: 03 Aug 2003 11:42:10
              Subject: [Pali] Re: question about monk, gold and money in Vinaya

              Dear Sese, Piya and friends,

              the Norman fonts can be downloaded here:
              http://jbe.gold.ac.uk/pali/fonts/

              For PC users, the file is tm-norm.zip.
              For Mac users, the file is norm_sea.hqx

              Times Norman fonts is different from Times New Roman fonts. It was
              created by professor Norman to display romanised pali fonts with
              diacritics.

              metta,
              Yong Peng

              --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, sese2k3 wrote:
              Is "Times Norman" same with "Times New Roman" ? If it isn't, can you
              help me from what websites I can install it ?



              - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
              [Homepage] http://www.tipitaka.net
              [Send Message] pali@yahoogroups.com
              Paaliga.na - a community for Pali students
              Yahoo! Groups members can set their delivery options to daily digest or web only.

              Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
            • sese2k3
              Dear Yong Peng, Your information very helpful for me. Thank you very much. May all beings be happy. metta, Sese
              Message 6 of 16 , Aug 4, 2003
              • 0 Attachment
                Dear Yong Peng,

                Your information very helpful for me.
                Thank you very much.

                May all beings be happy.

                metta,

                Sese

                --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "Ong Yong Peng" <ypong001@y...> wrote:
                > Dear Sese, Piya and friends,
                >
                > the Norman fonts can be downloaded here:
                > http://jbe.gold.ac.uk/pali/fonts/
                >
                > For PC users, the file is tm-norm.zip.
                > For Mac users, the file is norm_sea.hqx
                >
                > Times Norman fonts is different from Times New Roman fonts. It was
                > created by professor Norman to display romanised pali fonts with
                > diacritics.
                >
                > metta,
                > Yong Peng
                >
              Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.