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text question about Dhp-a

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  • Everett Thiele
    Hi All, Since the Dhp-a authorship has been discussed here lately I thought I d take the chance to ask for help with a passage in the HC Norman edition that
    Message 1 of 7 , Jul 31, 2003
      Hi All,

      Since the Dhp-a authorship has been discussed here lately I thought I'd
      take the chance to ask for help with a passage in the HC Norman edition
      that I've found puzzling. I can't make any sense of it as it stands,
      but a very slight change seems to make all the pieces of the puzzle
      fall together. If anyone else here is interested, I'd be happy to
      receive feedback on it.

      Norman, H.C. (ed), _The Commentary on the Dhammapada_, PTS, 1970

      Vol I, Page 48, lines 11-13

      The context is that a female deer (migii) has just had her three
      offspring eaten by her nemesis in the form of a female leopard
      (diipinii). Here's the relevant part of the text as it stands in Norman:

      Migii: 'mara.nakaale imaaya me tikkhattu.m puttakaa khaadi, taa idaani
      mam pi khaadissati[...]' ti...

      I can't get this to fit together grammatically (subject/verb
      agreement), so my question is whether the 'taa' should actually be
      attached to 'khaadi' (I also think the scope of the 'iti' might not
      need to include the word 'mara.nakaale', but that's a separate issue)
      So perhaps it should be revised to look like this:

      Migii mara.nakaale: 'imaaya me tikkhattu.m puttakaa khaaditaa, idaani
      mam pi khaadissati[...]' ti...

      tr. At the moment of death the deer thought, "by her three times my
      sons have been eaten, now she will eat me as well..."

      Is there some sense to the original text that I just can't see? Is my
      rendering cogent? And is it plausible to connect the 'taa' with
      the 'khaadi' like that? I've never looked at the manuscripts or source
      editions, so I don't know whether the separation is there, or is HC
      Norman's interpretation. (though I assume the western punctuation is
      Norman's addition, which is why I readily change the scope of the iti).

      A possibly relevant variant is that acc. to Norman the Burmese edition
      takes the 'taa' as a '-tvaa' and connects it with khaadi. I can't make
      sense of that reading either, though it does set a precedent for the
      possible connection.

      Thanks for any help,

      a confused Pali student.
    • Dimitry A. Ivakhnenko (������� ���������
      Hi Everett, You are right in the change of punctuation. CSCD edition reads: Kukku.tii na cirasseva a.n.daani vijaayi, majjaarii aagantvaa taani a.n.daani
      Message 2 of 7 , Jul 31, 2003
        Hi Everett,

        You are right in the change of punctuation. CSCD edition reads:

        Kukku.tii na cirasseva a.n.daani vijaayi, majjaarii aagantvaa taani
        a.n.daani khaadi. Dutiyampi tatiyampi khaadiyeva. Kukku.tii cintesi-
        "tayo vaare mama a.n.daani khaaditvaa idaani mampi
        khaaditukaamaasii"ti. "Ito cutaa saputtaka.m ta.m khaaditu.m
        labheyyan"ti patthana.m katvaa tato cutaa ara~n~ne diipinii hutvaa
        nibbatti. Itaraa migii hutvaa nibbatti. Tassaa vijaatakaale diipinii
        aagantvaa tayo vaare puttake khaadi. Migii mara.nakaale "aya.m me
        tikkhattu.m puttake khaaditvaa idaani mampi khaadissati, ito daani
        cutaa eta.m saputtaka.m khaaditu.m labheyyan"ti patthana.m katvaa ito
        cutaa yakkhinii hutvaa nibbatti.

        In Norman's version taa may refer to 'khadissati' - hence 'she will eat'.

        Best regards,
        Dimitry
      • Everett Thiele
        Hi Dimitry and All, Dimitry A. Ivakhnenko (äÍÉÔÒÉÊ áÌÅËÓÅÅ×ÉÞ é×ÁÈÎÅÎËÏ) ... Thanks for providing this version of the text. It s
        Message 3 of 7 , Aug 1, 2003
          Hi Dimitry and All,

          "Dimitry A. Ivakhnenko (������� ���������� ���������)"
          <koleso@...>:

          >
          > You are right in the change of punctuation. CSCD edition reads:
          > Migii mara.nakaale "aya.m me
          > tikkhattu.m puttake khaaditvaa idaani mampi khaadissati, ito daani
          > cutaa eta.m saputtaka.m khaaditu.m labheyyan"ti patthana.m katvaa ito
          > cutaa yakkhinii hutvaa nibbatti.
          >

          Thanks for providing this version of the text. It's quite helpful, and
          interesting in that it shows how changes need to be linked together to
          work. This version is very easy to understand, since not only does it
          turn the 'taa' into a '-tvaa', it also backs that up by using 'aya.m'
          instead of 'imaaya', and 'puttake' instead of 'puttakaa'. The latter
          reading (puttake) is mentioned by Norman as being found in some mss,
          but the former (ayam for imaaya) is not noted by him.

          My only worry is whether this represents an 'evening out' of what might
          originally have been a more subtle or grammatically difficult
          construction. Does HC Norman's version make sense in some way that I
          just can't see? It bothers me to think he might have edited together
          some nonsense.

          > In Norman's version taa may refer to 'khadissati' - hence 'she will
          eat'.
          >

          Yes, I believe that is the idea in Norman's version, but the problem is
          that if the 'taa' is a pronominal subject of khadissati, then in the
          earlier phrase the aorist 'khaadi' is left without a subject, and there
          is a free-floating 'imaaya' which looks like an instrumental agent. I
          wonder whether a scribe at some point mistook a 'khaaditaa' or
          a 'khaaditva' for the aorist 'khaadi' followed by 'taa' since that form
          of the aorist had occured several times earlier in the same passage.

          In any case, this doesn't seem to be especially important, since the
          various variations are all trying to get at the same sense. We know
          what it's trying to say, and the issue is just how did they originally
          word it. On the other hand tt seems like that little change in
          punctuation (putting mara.nakaale outside of the scope of the iti,) is
          actually more important since it has cultural or doctrinal
          implications. The deer is making a rebirth aspiration _at the moment of
          death_.

          Anyhow, I'm happy to see that the CSCD edition achieves clarity and
          sense there. Is that typical for that edition, that they have found
          solutions to these sorts of problems? If so it sounds like it would be
          ideal for students like me to use as a learning tool. Unfortunately I
          have a Mac... Are there any Mac conversions floating around?

          best regards,

          --Rett
        • Dimitry A. Ivakhnenko (������� ���������
          Hi Rett, ET Anyhow, I m happy to see that the CSCD edition achieves clarity and ET sense there. Is that typical for that edition, that they have found ET
          Message 4 of 7 , Aug 1, 2003
            Hi Rett,

            ET> Anyhow, I'm happy to see that the CSCD edition achieves clarity and
            ET> sense there. Is that typical for that edition, that they have found
            ET> solutions to these sorts of problems?

            I have heard that it is one of the most authentic and valid editions.

            ET> If so it sounds like it would be
            ET> ideal for students like me to use as a learning tool. Unfortunately I
            ET> have a Mac... Are there any Mac conversions floating around?

            Anyway you can either download it from the website,
            http://www.tipitaka.org/
            or convert the CD
            http://www.vri.dhamma.org/publications/cdorder.html
            to HTML using CSCDCONV conversion utility which is avalilable at
            http://www.fsnow.com/pali/

            Best regards,
            Dimitry
          • Everett Thiele
            Hi Dimitry, Thanks for these interesting links. I ve been looking through them and it looks as though the crux for viewing these files is the font. It doesn t
            Message 5 of 7 , Aug 1, 2003
              Hi Dimitry,

              Thanks for these interesting links. I've been looking through them and
              it looks as though the crux for viewing these files is the font. It
              doesn't look as though the conversion would take care of that bit. Or
              am I missing something? Do you (or anyone else) have experience getting
              that part to work on a Mac?

              best regards,

              --Rett

              > Are there any Mac conversions floating around?
              >
              > Anyway you can either download it from the website,
              > http://www.tipitaka.org/
              > or convert the CD
              > http://www.vri.dhamma.org/publications/cdorder.html
              > to HTML using CSCDCONV conversion utility which is avalilable at
              > http://www.fsnow.com/pali/
            • Dimitry A. Ivakhnenko (������� ���������
              Hi Rett, ET Thanks for these interesting links. I ve been looking through them and ET it looks as though the crux for viewing these files is the font. It ET
              Message 6 of 7 , Aug 1, 2003
                Hi Rett,

                ET> Thanks for these interesting links. I've been looking through them and
                ET> it looks as though the crux for viewing these files is the font. It
                ET> doesn't look as though the conversion would take care of that bit. Or
                ET> am I missing something? Do you (or anyone else) have experience getting
                ET> that part to work on a Mac?

                Though I have no such experience, on the page
                http://www.fsnow.com/pali/
                there are specific utilities for Mac font conversion.

                Best regards,
                Dimitry
              • Everett Thiele
                ... Ahh, now I found it. In the Mac folder Tthere s a filter to convert to Normyn characters. Many thanks!
                Message 7 of 7 , Aug 2, 2003
                  >
                  > Though I have no such experience, on the page
                  > http://www.fsnow.com/pali/
                  > there are specific utilities for Mac font conversion.

                  Ahh, now I found it. In the Mac folder Tthere's a filter to convert to
                  Normyn characters. Many thanks!
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