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Pali - Every few days - [B047]

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  • John Kelly
    Pali - Every few days - [B047] Gair/Karunatillake - Chapter 4 – Readings Ex. 1. (Part 3 of 5) Santi, bhikkhave, eke sama.nabraahma.naa jaataruuparajata.m
    Message 1 of 24 , Jun 18, 2003
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      Pali - Every few days - [B047]
      Gair/Karunatillake - Chapter 4 � Readings
      Ex. 1. (Part 3 of 5)

      Santi, bhikkhave, eke sama.nabraahma.naa
      jaataruuparajata.m saadiyanti,
      jaataruuparajatapa.tiggaha.naa appa.tivirataa. Aya.m,
      bhikkhave, tatiyo sama.nabraahma.naana.m upakkileso
      yena upakkilesena upakkili.t.thaa eke
      sama.nabraahma.naa na tapanti, na bhaasanti, na
      virocanti.
      There are, monks, some Brahmins and recluses that
      appropriate gold and silver, and show no restraint
      from receiving gold and silver. This, monks, is the
      third defilement of Brahmins and recluses, tainted
      with which, some Brahmins and recluses do not shine,
      are not lustrous, and are dim.

      Metta,
      John

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    • nina van gorkom
      Dear friends, on account of my research I have some reflections on: pariyaadaaya .thassanti. The use of .ttithati, to stay, persevere, helps me to go more
      Message 2 of 24 , Jun 21, 2003
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        Dear friends,
        on account of my research I have some reflections on: pariyaadaaya
        .thassanti.

        The use of .ttithati, to stay, persevere, helps me to go more deeply into
        the meaning of the suttas where this phrase occurs.
        This morning at breakfast my husband and I were listening to the Pu.n.na
        sutta, SN IV, 88, which I had put on tape. The Buddha explained to Pu.n.na
        about the six objects experienced through the six doorways: visible object,
        sound, odour, flavour, tangible object and mental object, which are inciting
        to lust. ²If a monk be enamoured of them, if he welcome them, persist in
        clinging to them...there comes a lure upon him²:
        ta~nce bhikkhu abhinandati abhivadati ajjhosaaya ti.t.thati...uppajjati
        nanda (lure)...
        Ajjhosaaya ti.t.thati is an interesting and meaningful variation of
        pariyaadaaya .thassanti : ajjhosaaya is the gerund of ajjhosati, to be
        attached, just as pariyaadaaya which is also a gerund. He persists in
        clinging.
        Why not just clinging, why, persits in clinging? This reminds us that
        clinging is deeply accumulated and very persistent. It cannot be uprooted
        immediately.
        Further on we read the negation: naajjhosaaya ti.t.thati, if a monk persists
        not in clinging...
        The Buddha taught Pu.n.na about the six objects before he went to the fierce
        people of Sunaaparanta. Pu.n.na had perfect equanimity. When the Buddha said
        how he would feel if they would abuse and revile him, he said to the Buddha:
        ²Kindly indeed are the men of Sunaaparanta...in that they do not smite me a
        blow with their hands...² He spoke in a similar way when the Buddha asked
        him how he would feel if they would beat him strike him and stab him with a
        sword, and even kill him.
        The Buddha had first explained about ultimate realities, paramattha dhammas,
        all objects that can be experienced through the six doors. In the ultimate
        sense there are no persons that can hurt one, only different objects
        experienced through the six doors. Pu.n.na attained arahatship while in
        Sunaaparanta.
        This research on pariyaadaaya helped me to be attentive to the phrases where
        it occurs and similar phrases with ti.t.thati. It is a reminder of the
        persistence of clinging. Vipassana, understanding of all objects through the
        six doors, has to be developed life after life, this is the only way that
        clinging can be eradicated.
        Nina.
        P.S. conclusion of research comes next week.
      • nina van gorkom
        Dear Yong Peng, Jim and friends, I hope everything went well with Yong Peng. Here is my recapitulation and conclusion of the pariyaada research and I am
        Message 3 of 24 , Jun 24, 2003
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          Dear Yong Peng, Jim and friends,

          I hope everything went well with Yong Peng.
          Here is my recapitulation and conclusion of the pariyaada research and I am
          interested at Jim's reactions:

          pathaviisama~nhi te, raahula, bhaavana.m bhaavayato
          For when you apply yourself to the mental development that is like the
          earth, Rahula,

          uppannaa manaapaamanaapaa phassaa citta.m na pariyaadaaya .thassanti.

          agreeable and disagreeable impressions that have arisen, will not overwhelm
          the mind and persist.

          pariyaadaaya: having overcome (gerund of pariyaadaati, exhaust, take up
          excessively).
          .thassanti: they will remain, persist.

          All the possibilities;
          For when you cultivate an earth-like meditation, agreeable and disagreeable
          contacts that have arisen will not overpower your mind and remain.
          This pleasurable feeling, Aggivessana, that has arisen in him, impinging on
          his mind, does not persist, because of the development of the body...
          ..uppannaa pi sukhaavedanaa citta.m na pariyaadaaya ti.t.thati bhaavitattaa
          kaayassa...
          ..if he wins joy and happiness or something more peaceful than that, then
          coveting does not persist in obsessing his mind...
          ... piitisukha.m adhigacchati a~n~na~n-ca tato santatara.m, tassa abhijjhaa
          pi citta.m na pariyaadaaya ti.t.thati...

          But at times, things belonging to greed... aversion...confusion... taking
          hold of my mind, persist. pariyaadaaya ti.t.thanti.

          When gains, favours and flattery come to us, we will put them aside; nor
          when they come shall they take lasting hold on our hearts.
          Uppanna.m laabhasakkaarasiloka.m pajahissaama (we shall abandon) na ca no
          uppanno laabhasakkaarasiloko cittam pariyaadaaya .thassatiiti.
          persistingly possess.
          Him have I seen thereafter overcome and his heart possessed by gains,
          favours and flattery (deliberately telling a lie).
          Tam enam passaami aparena samayena laabhasakkaarasilokena abhibhuutam
          (overcome) pariyaadi.n.nacitta.m...

          worried thoughts arise and persist, laying hold of the heart: citta.m
          pariyaadaaya ti.t.thanti.
          ³Having altogether laid hold of (him) they persist.²
          do not arise and persist, laying hold of his heart...
          S IV, 125 (Third Fifty, Ch 4): There are objects... Though they touch the
          heart again and again (phussa-phussa), yet they cannot altogether lay hold
          of it and so persist: citta.m na pariyaadaaya ti.t.thanti.
          What is the venerable Anuruddha¹s life, in that the painful feelings that
          come upon him make no impression on his mind?
          ³sloth and torpor compass my heart about and stay...²
          ...ill-will invades my heart and stays.
          ³Gain, loss and so forth take possession of their minds and hold sway
          there...²
          When, monk, inwardly your mind is firm and composed, and evil and wrong
          sttates, which arise and overwhelm the mind, find no footing...²
          .. evil, unprofitable states arising shall not overpower our thought and
          abide therein... and when evil, unprofitable states arising overpower not
          his thought and abide therein...²
          nor would taint of stinginess obsess the heart and stay there...²

          Conclusion: It strikes me that we find this phrase, pariyaadaaya
          ti.t.thanti, so often occurs throughout the whole Suttanta. This also
          indicates that the text was originally memorized and passed on by oral
          tradition.

          the pariyaadaaya ti.t.thanti are taken as a whole and the negation is
          rightly placed before these two words.
          In the translations they are also taken as two words with <and> in between,
          but they belong together.
          sometimes the ti.t.thanti is a modifying factor of pariyaadaaya, thus:
          persistingly possess. or: take a lasting hold.
          Or: does not persist in obsessing his mind. Here in obsessing modifies
          persist.

          Personally, I opt for the original choice: will not overwhelm
          the mind and persist. However, other translations are also good.
          Recapitulation of bhavayato: from: bhaveti, present participle, as to form
          it can be gen., dative, locative (in him).

          Warder, Ch 21: present participle, genitive and dative: gacchato,
          gacchantassa.
          Of the causatives, this is with e, bhaveti: the <e> can become<aya>, a
          strong form. Ch 13:kaarento, kaarayato. Thus, we have: bhavento, and
          genitive etc.:
          bhavayato. (e changed to aya).
          Translation: in him who, for him who. As we have seen, it can give a reason:
          because he who develops...
          Or better: for, when you..develop..
          Cultivate the mind-development that is like the earth:
          Or: apply yourself to the mind-development that is like the earth
          We could avoid: develop the development..
          Nina.
        • Jim Anderson
          Dear Nina, Thank-you for the presentation and conclusion of your research work. I think you are probably right in that the negative applies to both
          Message 4 of 24 , Jun 24, 2003
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            Dear Nina,

            Thank-you for the presentation and conclusion of your research work. I
            think you are probably right in that the negative applies to both
            "pariyaadaaya" and ".thassati". Instead of "For when you apply
            yourself . . .", something along the lines of "(impressions that have
            arisen) in you while applying yourself . . ." might be another
            possibility.

            I thought your translation and interpretation of the
            nimbodakapatana.t.thaana passage from the Thai was brilliant and right
            on the mark.

            Best wishes,
            Jim

            << Dear Yong Peng, Jim and friends,

            I hope everything went well with Yong Peng.
            Here is my recapitulation and conclusion of the pariyaada research and
            I am
            interested at Jim's reactions:

            pathaviisama~nhi te, raahula, bhaavana.m bhaavayato
            For when you apply yourself to the mental development that is like the
            earth, Rahula,

            uppannaa manaapaamanaapaa phassaa citta.m na pariyaadaaya .thassanti.

            agreeable and disagreeable impressions that have arisen, will not
            overwhelm
            the mind and persist.

            pariyaadaaya: having overcome (gerund of pariyaadaati, exhaust, take
            up
            excessively).
            .thassanti: they will remain, persist. >>
          • Ong Yong Peng
            Dear Nina and friends, thanks for your kind wishes, Nina, and for that matter, everything went well, I am satisfied with my performance, thanks for the
            Message 5 of 24 , Jun 25, 2003
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              Dear Nina and friends,

              thanks for your kind wishes, Nina, and for that matter, everything
              went well, I am satisfied with my performance, thanks for the
              positive karmic links. :-)

              Please allow me some time to read up and absorb what you have put up
              for the group.

              metta,
              Yong Peng

              --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote:
              > I hope everything went well with Yong Peng.
            • nina van gorkom
              Dear Yong Peng, I thought of you and often talked with my husband about your exams, in fact when we were hiking in beautiful nature, I thought of you working
              Message 6 of 24 , Jun 25, 2003
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                Dear Yong Peng,
                I thought of you and often talked with my husband about your exams, in fact
                when we were hiking in beautiful nature, I thought of you working hard. I
                am really glad it went well. Do take your time, we were just saying that you
                would need a rest.
                I was glad to see again Pali Day by Day, I had missed it. All additional
                exercises are helpful,
                Nina.
                op 25-06-2003 10:55 schreef Ong Yong Peng op ypong001@...:

                > thanks for your kind wishes, Nina, and for that matter, everything
                > went well, I am satisfied with my performance, thanks for the
                > positive karmic links. :-)
              • Ong Yong Peng
                Dear Nina and friends, thanks again, Nina. Allow me the opportunity to let everyone knows that I have put up Andy s archive on Tipitaka Network, all pages
                Message 7 of 24 , Jun 26, 2003
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                  Dear Nina and friends,

                  thanks again, Nina. Allow me the opportunity to let everyone knows
                  that I have put up Andy's archive on Tipitaka Network, all pages
                  work: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Pali/files/andy/index.htm

                  I have also started on Dhammapada: Verses and Stories
                  - http://www.tipitaka.net/tipitaka/dhp/

                  metta,
                  Yong Peng
                • Ong Yong Peng
                  Dear Nina, Jim, Piya and friends, many thanks to Nina for conduct the research on pariyaada. I now see that na applies to both pariyaadaaya and .thassanti. I
                  Message 8 of 24 , Jul 2, 2003
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                    Dear Nina, Jim, Piya and friends,

                    many thanks to Nina for conduct the research on pariyaada. I now see
                    that na applies to both pariyaadaaya and .thassanti. I hope that the
                    Tipitaka is consistent in this grammatical usage.

                    Nina, do you think it is better to translate (as I pick up from one
                    of the sentences you quoted) "citta.m na pariyaadaaya .thassanti"
                    as "will not persistently overwhelm the mind"? I think this will
                    leave no room for second thought as to what the passage means.

                    metta,
                    Yong Peng

                    >uppannaa manaapaamanaapaa phassaa citta.m na pariyaadaaya .thassanti
                    >agreeable and disagreeable impressions that have arisen, will not
                    overwhelm the mind and persist.
                  • nina van gorkom
                    Dear Yong Peng, op 02-07-2003 14:45 schreef Ong Yong Peng op ypong001@yahoo.com: I now see ... N: Yes, it is a good solution. Jim had one remark about
                    Message 9 of 24 , Jul 2, 2003
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                      Dear Yong Peng,
                      op 02-07-2003 14:45 schreef Ong Yong Peng op ypong001@...:

                      I now see
                      > that na applies to both pariyaadaaya and .thassanti. I hope that the
                      > Tipitaka is consistent in this grammatical usage.
                      >
                      > Nina, do you think it is better to translate (as I pick up from one
                      > of the sentences you quoted) "citta.m na pariyaadaaya .thassanti"
                      > as "will not persistently overwhelm the mind"? I think this will
                      > leave no room for second thought as to what the passage means.
                      >> uppannaa manaapaamanaapaa phassaa citta.m na pariyaadaaya .thassanti
                      >> agreeable and disagreeable impressions that have arisen, will not
                      > overwhelm the mind and persist.
                      N: Yes, it is a good solution. Jim had one remark about bhavayato:
                      impressions that have arisen in you while applying yourself...
                      We can consider this, have to figure out the whole sentence.
                      Nina.
                    • Ong Yong Peng
                      Dear Nina, Jim and friends, I have now put the latest paragraph of the sutta online: http://www.tipitaka.net/tipitaka/strans/stransload.php?page=mn062s07 I
                      Message 10 of 24 , Jul 6, 2003
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                        Dear Nina, Jim and friends,

                        I have now put the latest paragraph of the sutta online:
                        http://www.tipitaka.net/tipitaka/strans/stransload.php?page=mn062s07

                        I have also reworked all the pages in this section, such that
                        1. there is better presentation;
                        2. the downloading time is reduced.

                        Below is the latest compilation on the word bhaavayato. Please
                        correct me if there is any mistake.

                        bhaavayato [referring to A Practical Grammar of the Pali Language by
                        Charles Duroiselle]
                        ROOT: bhuu, to be.
                        Chapter 10
                        (§492) causative: bhaave, bhaavaya.
                        (§496) causative base/stem: bhaaveti.
                        (§441) present participle: bhaaventa, bhaavaya.m, bhaavayanta,
                        bhaavayamaana.
                        --> Choose 'bhaavaya.m'.
                        Warder's Lesson 21 (Page 169)
                        Declension of present participles in -ant: bhaavaya.m ==> bhaavayato
                        (dat./sing.)
                        [ The following is based on messages from Jim Anderson and Nina van
                        Gorkom. ]
                        Bhaavayato is a present participle derived from a causative stem --
                        bhaaveti. There are several variants of the present participle:
                        bhaaventa, bhaavaya.m, bhaavayanta, bhaavayamaana. In this sutta,
                        bhaavaya.m is used. The final word bhaavayato can be in either dative
                        or genitive case. In the context of this sentence, the dative case is
                        implied.

                        metta,
                        Yong Peng
                      • Jim Anderson
                        Dear Yong Peng, I appreciate your nicely put presentation here. I m pointing out a couple of mistakes.
                        Message 11 of 24 , Jul 6, 2003
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                          Dear Yong Peng,

                          I appreciate your nicely put presentation here. I'm pointing out a
                          couple of mistakes.

                          << Below is the latest compilation on the word bhaavayato. Please
                          correct me if there is any mistake.

                          bhaavayato [referring to A Practical Grammar of the Pali Language by
                          Charles Duroiselle]
                          ROOT: bhuu, to be.
                          Chapter 10
                          (§492) causative: bhaave, bhaavaya.
                          (§496) causative base/stem: bhaaveti.>>

                          I'd say that the causative base/stem is as §492: bhaave, bhaavaya
                          which are derived from bhuu + .ne or .naya (the .n is an indicatory
                          letter indicating that the root vowel, where applicable, is
                          lengthened). Bhaaveti is a causative verb, 3rd pers. sing. active
                          present tense.

                          <<(§441) present participle: bhaaventa, bhaavaya.m, bhaavayanta,
                          bhaavayamaana.
                          --> Choose 'bhaavaya.m'.>>

                          In terms of present participle stems, I'd leave out 'bhaavaya.m' as it
                          is an inflected word in the nom. sing. and choose instead
                          'bhaavayanta' from bhaavaya + nta.

                          <<Warder's Lesson 21 (Page 169)
                          Declension of present participles in -ant: bhaavaya.m ==> bhaavayato
                          (dat./sing.)
                          [ The following is based on messages from Jim Anderson and Nina van
                          Gorkom. ]
                          Bhaavayato is a present participle derived from a causative stem --
                          bhaaveti.>>

                          Use causative stem 'bhaavaya' instead of 'bhaaveti'. The causative
                          present participle stem is 'bhaavayanta'.

                          << There are several variants of the present participle:
                          bhaaventa, bhaavaya.m, bhaavayanta, bhaavayamaana. In this sutta,
                          bhaavaya.m is used. The final word bhaavayato can be in either dative
                          or genitive case. In the context of this sentence, the dative case is
                          implied.>>

                          Leave out 'bhaavaya.m'.

                          Best wishes,
                          Jim
                        • Ong Yong Peng
                          Dear Jim and friends, thanks for pointing out the mistakes, I have made the corrections and updated the page:
                          Message 12 of 24 , Jul 6, 2003
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                            Dear Jim and friends,

                            thanks for pointing out the mistakes, I have made the corrections and
                            updated the page:
                            http://www.tipitaka.net/tipitaka/strans/stransload.php?page=mn062s07

                            --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson_on@y...>
                            wrote:
                            > Dear Yong Peng,
                            >
                            > I appreciate your nicely put presentation here. I'm pointing out a
                            > couple of mistakes.
                            >
                            > << Below is the latest compilation on the word bhaavayato. Please
                            > correct me if there is any mistake.
                            >
                            > bhaavayato [referring to A Practical Grammar of the Pali Language by
                            > Charles Duroiselle]
                            > ROOT: bhuu, to be.
                            > Chapter 10
                            > (§492) causative: bhaave, bhaavaya.
                            > (§496) causative base/stem: bhaaveti.>>
                            >
                            > I'd say that the causative base/stem is as §492: bhaave, bhaavaya
                            > which are derived from bhuu + .ne or .naya (the .n is an indicatory
                            > letter indicating that the root vowel, where applicable, is
                            > lengthened). Bhaaveti is a causative verb, 3rd pers. sing. active
                            > present tense.
                            >
                            > <<(§441) present participle: bhaaventa, bhaavaya.m, bhaavayanta,
                            > bhaavayamaana.
                            > --> Choose 'bhaavaya.m'.>>
                            >
                            > In terms of present participle stems, I'd leave out 'bhaavaya.m' as
                            it
                            > is an inflected word in the nom. sing. and choose instead
                            > 'bhaavayanta' from bhaavaya + nta.
                            >
                            > <<Warder's Lesson 21 (Page 169)
                            > Declension of present participles in -ant: bhaavaya.m ==> bhaavayato
                            > (dat./sing.)
                            > [ The following is based on messages from Jim Anderson and Nina van
                            > Gorkom. ]
                            > Bhaavayato is a present participle derived from a causative stem --
                            > bhaaveti.>>
                            >
                            > Use causative stem 'bhaavaya' instead of 'bhaaveti'. The causative
                            > present participle stem is 'bhaavayanta'.
                            >
                            > << There are several variants of the present participle:
                            > bhaaventa, bhaavaya.m, bhaavayanta, bhaavayamaana. In this sutta,
                            > bhaavaya.m is used. The final word bhaavayato can be in either
                            dative
                            > or genitive case. In the context of this sentence, the dative case
                            is
                            > implied.>>
                            >
                            > Leave out 'bhaavaya.m'.
                            >
                            > Best wishes,
                            > Jim
                          • Ong Yong Peng
                            Dear Jim and friends, thanks for pointing out the mistakes, I have made the corrections and updated the page:
                            Message 13 of 24 , Jul 6, 2003
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                              Dear Jim and friends,

                              thanks for pointing out the mistakes, I have made the corrections and
                              updated the page:
                              http://www.tipitaka.net/tipitaka/strans/stransload.php?page=mn062s07

                              --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson_on@y...>
                              wrote:
                              > Dear Yong Peng,
                              >
                              > I appreciate your nicely put presentation here. I'm pointing out a
                              > couple of mistakes.
                              >
                              > << Below is the latest compilation on the word bhaavayato. Please
                              > correct me if there is any mistake.
                              >
                              > bhaavayato [referring to A Practical Grammar of the Pali Language by
                              > Charles Duroiselle]
                              > ROOT: bhuu, to be.
                              > Chapter 10
                              > (§492) causative: bhaave, bhaavaya.
                              > (§496) causative base/stem: bhaaveti.>>
                              >
                              > I'd say that the causative base/stem is as §492: bhaave, bhaavaya
                              > which are derived from bhuu + .ne or .naya (the .n is an indicatory
                              > letter indicating that the root vowel, where applicable, is
                              > lengthened). Bhaaveti is a causative verb, 3rd pers. sing. active
                              > present tense.
                              >
                              > <<(§441) present participle: bhaaventa, bhaavaya.m, bhaavayanta,
                              > bhaavayamaana.
                              > --> Choose 'bhaavaya.m'.>>
                              >
                              > In terms of present participle stems, I'd leave out 'bhaavaya.m' as
                              it
                              > is an inflected word in the nom. sing. and choose instead
                              > 'bhaavayanta' from bhaavaya + nta.
                              >
                              > <<Warder's Lesson 21 (Page 169)
                              > Declension of present participles in -ant: bhaavaya.m ==> bhaavayato
                              > (dat./sing.)
                              > [ The following is based on messages from Jim Anderson and Nina van
                              > Gorkom. ]
                              > Bhaavayato is a present participle derived from a causative stem --
                              > bhaaveti.>>
                              >
                              > Use causative stem 'bhaavaya' instead of 'bhaaveti'. The causative
                              > present participle stem is 'bhaavayanta'.
                              >
                              > << There are several variants of the present participle:
                              > bhaaventa, bhaavaya.m, bhaavayanta, bhaavayamaana. In this sutta,
                              > bhaavaya.m is used. The final word bhaavayato can be in either
                              dative
                              > or genitive case. In the context of this sentence, the dative case
                              is
                              > implied.>>
                              >
                              > Leave out 'bhaavaya.m'.
                              >
                              > Best wishes,
                              > Jim
                            • nina van gorkom
                              Dear Yong Peng, ... N: Would you like me to translate the next part of the sutta on mind development like water? Whatever you decide is fine. As to the Co: I
                              Message 14 of 24 , Jul 8, 2003
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                                Dear Yong Peng,
                                op 06-07-2003 12:21 schreef Ong Yong Peng op ypong001@...:

                                > I have now put the latest paragraph of the sutta online:
                                > http://www.tipitaka.net/tipitaka/strans/stransload.php?page=mn062s07
                                N: Would you like me to translate the next part of the sutta on mind
                                development like water?
                                Whatever you decide is fine.
                                As to the Co: I finished the last par to the end, translated line by line as
                                you suggested, but I want to coordinate with you when to present it. Perhaps
                                when the relevant sutta sections are ready I could add co. to each section?
                                Meanwhile, I went back to the beginning of the Co I had not translated
                                before and now translating line by line. At first I found the similes long
                                and difficult, but now I like them very much. Pages with viya..viya.. I have
                                some sections ready and could present them little by little if you like. But
                                again, whatever you decide is fine.
                                Nina.
                              • Ong Yong Peng
                                Dear Nina, thanks for your generous words. Would it be ok that I attempt on the next paragraph (water), while you attempt the following one on heat/fire? At
                                Message 15 of 24 , Jul 9, 2003
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                                  Dear Nina,

                                  thanks for your generous words. Would it be ok that I attempt on the
                                  next paragraph (water), while you attempt the following one on
                                  heat/fire? At this rate, we can probably finish the sutta by November.

                                  As for the commentaries, I am glad to hear that you have finished up
                                  to the last paragraph, and are going back for a line by line
                                  translation. Please do as you see fit. I would like to put the
                                  commentary with the sutta on the web, if you don't mind. Thank you.

                                  metta,
                                  Yong Peng

                                  --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote:
                                  > N: Would you like me to translate the next part of the sutta on mind
                                  > development like water?
                                  > Whatever you decide is fine.
                                  > As to the Co: I finished the last par to the end, translated line
                                  by line as you suggested, but I want to coordinate with you when to
                                  present it. Perhaps when the relevant sutta sections are ready I
                                  could add co. to each section?
                                  > Meanwhile, I went back to the beginning of the Co I had not
                                  translated before and now translating line by line. At first I found
                                  the similes long and difficult, but now I like them very much. Pages
                                  with viya..viya.. I have some sections ready and could present them
                                  little by little if you like. But again, whatever you decide is fine.
                                • nina van gorkom
                                  Dear Yong Peng, ... N: Yes, a very good idea. I shall add commentary to the parts of the sutta as we are translating them now. I can send of from now on those
                                  Message 16 of 24 , Jul 10, 2003
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                                    Dear Yong Peng,
                                    op 09-07-2003 20:55 schreef Ong Yong Peng op ypong001@...:
                                    > thanks for your generous words. Would it be ok that I attempt on the
                                    > next paragraph (water), while you attempt the following one on
                                    > heat/fire? At this rate, we can probably finish the sutta by November.
                                    N: Yes, a very good idea.
                                    I shall add commentary to the parts of the sutta as we are translating them
                                    now.
                                    I can send of from now on those from the very beginning, and these I number
                                    B series. As I go along I shall repost the ones at the end I posted already,
                                    so that they are all in the right order.
                                    Is that O.K.?
                                    I shall add word lists, there are many. What is easier for the readers, to
                                    put them before my text, or afterwards?
                                    Y: I would like to put the
                                    > commentary with the sutta on the web, if you don't mind.
                                    N: That is a good idea, it is good to have sutta and commentary together.
                                    I always like suggestions and corrections, I know how easy it is to make
                                    mistakes. I have no tools for word search, nor access to the old grammars.
                                    It is good if it can be teamwork.
                                    Nina.
                                  • Ong Yong Peng
                                    Dear Nina and friends, thanks, Nina. Please allow me some time, and I shall present what I have on Sunday. Your suggestion for the commentary is perfect.
                                    Message 17 of 24 , Jul 11, 2003
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                                      Dear Nina and friends,

                                      thanks, Nina. Please allow me some time, and I shall present what I
                                      have on Sunday.

                                      Your suggestion for the commentary is perfect. Please do as you see
                                      fit. Word lists are wonderful, especially for Pali students like
                                      myself. I think they are generally placed at the end of the text,
                                      unless we assume the reader is seeing all these words for the first
                                      time.

                                      The CSCD (cd-rom) has a built-in search function, the online PED has
                                      a good search engine, so do the online BUDSIR. Searching for pali
                                      terms using Yahoo!/Google is limited due to the non-standardised Pali
                                      fonts used in various sites. For tipitaka.net, I will be converting
                                      Ven. Narada's text and Duroiselle's grammar to Unicode once I
                                      complete the Pali Primer.

                                      As for the old grammars, can you tell me more about them. Besides
                                      physically owning a copy, what skills/knowledge are needed to
                                      understand them. I believe they are not in the Roman script.

                                      metta,
                                      Yong Peng

                                      --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote:
                                      > > thanks for your generous words. Would it be ok that I attempt on
                                      the next paragraph (water), while you attempt the following one on
                                      heat/fire? At this rate, we can probably finish the sutta by November.
                                      > N: Yes, a very good idea.
                                      > I shall add commentary to the parts of the sutta as we are
                                      translating them now.
                                      > I can send of from now on those from the very beginning, and these
                                      I number B series. As I go along I shall repost the ones at the end I
                                      posted already, so that they are all in the right order.
                                      > Is that O.K.?
                                      > I shall add word lists, there are many. What is easier for the
                                      readers, to put them before my text, or afterwards?
                                      > Y: I would like to put the
                                      > > commentary with the sutta on the web, if you don't mind.
                                      > N: That is a good idea, it is good to have sutta and commentary
                                      together. I always like suggestions and corrections, I know how easy
                                      it is to make mistakes. I have no tools for word search, nor access
                                      to the old grammars.
                                      > It is good if it can be teamwork.
                                    • nina van gorkom
                                      Dear Yong Peng, op 11-07-2003 17:30 schreef Ong Yong Peng op ypong001@yahoo.com: ... N: Yes, it is with the commentaries different: very many unusual words.
                                      Message 18 of 24 , Jul 13, 2003
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                                        Dear Yong Peng,
                                        op 11-07-2003 17:30 schreef Ong Yong Peng op ypong001@...:>
                                        > Your suggestion for the commentary is perfect. Please do as you see
                                        > fit. Word lists are wonderful, especially for Pali students like
                                        > myself. I think they are generally placed at the end of the text,
                                        > unless we assume the reader is seeing all these words for the first
                                        > time.
                                        N: Yes, it is with the commentaries different: very many unusual words. But
                                        very interesting. I learn about village life in olden times. People gave
                                        expression to their devotion with their decorations, the golden statues and
                                        festoonwork moved along by machinery (yanta). I learn about colours, the
                                        natural coloring, like coloring from red lead. About putting milk in a
                                        conch. About trees I did not know of before, like the coral tree. We should
                                        think of the kusala cittas of the people of old who made such elaborate
                                        decorations. The Commentary gives very impressive similes about the Buddha
                                        and Rahula walking behind as you will see soon. Against the background of
                                        all this gold glittering, gold dusting, festoonwork, the similes come to
                                        life.
                                        You will also see that the Buddha is compared to an elephant, to a lion, a
                                        tiger, a swan, and Rahula is compared to the young animal, going behind. The
                                        animals used in these similes were considered as majestic, awe-inspiring,
                                        and very beautiful. The young animal was also very elegant but only at the
                                        beginning of its growth and development.
                                        I hope you will appreciate the similes.
                                        Y: The CSCD (cd-rom) has a built-in search function, the online PED has
                                        > a good search engine, so do the online BUDSIR.
                                        N: Budsir is difficult if one does not want to be on line long.
                                        But nowadays tipitaka.net works very well for me.

                                        Y: As for the old grammars, can you tell me more about them. Besides
                                        > physically owning a copy, what skills/knowledge are needed to
                                        > understand them.
                                        N: I like to listen to the experts. Jim started with Kaccayaana, on his Pali
                                        study. About the other grammars, maybe he would post something here? I do
                                        not know anything. I only found out that one can easily go wrong without
                                        these old grammars. They elaborate in their examples of the use of words. We
                                        can find out that there is always more to it than we thought at first.
                                        Teng Kee also posted here some info about translations of part Saddaniiti
                                        which is in Pali. Do you have this in Pali? Then you could perhaps give some
                                        texts from it when you give us the word of the week. Several people together
                                        could try to translate the relevant passage.
                                        Nina.
                                      • Ong Yong Peng
                                        Dear Nina and friends, thanks. After reading what you have written, I really look forward to the commentaries. I am interested to learn about the Indian social
                                        Message 19 of 24 , Jul 14, 2003
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                                          Dear Nina and friends,

                                          thanks. After reading what you have written, I really look forward to
                                          the commentaries. I am interested to learn about the Indian social
                                          and cultural aspect of life in Buddha's days. As for the similes,
                                          sometimes I find them wordy and dragging, but I'd like to learn to
                                          appreciate them.

                                          Yes, I'm also follow the thread on Kaccayaana. I do agree that
                                          ancient grammars will have something to offer us. Unfortunately, I do
                                          not have any of them. But I think it would be a good idea if these
                                          grammars can be made available online.

                                          Thanks also for your comments to Tipitaka.net. I am currently writing
                                          on the Buddha's life and presenting it in an unique way. However,
                                          because of the high demand for historical accuracy and research, I
                                          may not finished it in the short term. Please have a look and give me
                                          your comments:
                                          http://www.tipitaka.net/b-cube/pageload.php?page=030701a

                                          metta,
                                          Yong Peng

                                          --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote:
                                          Yes, it is with the commentaries different: very many unusual words.
                                          But very interesting. I learn about village life in olden times.
                                          People gave expression to their devotion with their decorations, the
                                          golden statues and festoonwork moved along by machinery (yanta). I
                                          learn about colours, the natural coloring, like coloring from red
                                          lead. About putting milk in a conch. About trees I did not know of
                                          before, like the coral tree. We should think of the kusala cittas of
                                          the people of old who made such elaborate decorations. The Commentary
                                          gives very impressive similes about the Buddha and Rahula walking
                                          behind as you will see soon. Against the background of all this gold
                                          glittering, gold dusting, festoonwork, the similes come to life.

                                          You will also see that the Buddha is compared to an elephant, to a
                                          lion, a tiger, a swan, and Rahula is compared to the young animal,
                                          going behind. The animals used in these similes were considered as
                                          majestic, awe-inspiring, and very beautiful. The young animal was
                                          also very elegant but only at the beginning of its growth and
                                          development.

                                          I hope you will appreciate the similes.

                                          > Y: As for the old grammars, can you tell me more about them.
                                          Besides physically owning a copy, what skills/knowledge are needed to
                                          understand them.

                                          I like to listen to the experts. Jim started with Kaccayaana, on his
                                          Pali study. About the other grammars, maybe he would post something
                                          here? I do not know anything. I only found out that one can easily go
                                          wrong without these old grammars. They elaborate in their examples of
                                          the use of words. We can find out that there is always more to it
                                          than we thought at first. Teng Kee also posted here some info about
                                          translations of part Saddaniiti which is in Pali. Do you have this in
                                          Pali? Then you could perhaps give some texts from it when you give us
                                          the word of the week. Several people together could try to translate
                                          the relevant passage.
                                        • bodhi2500
                                          Hi Yong Peng ... writing ... me ... In your life of the Buddha at the above link, you have Siddhatta as the Bodhisatta name, isnt the Pali spelling -
                                          Message 20 of 24 , Jul 14, 2003
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                                            Hi Yong Peng

                                            --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "Ong Yong Peng" <ypong001@y...> wrote:
                                            > Thanks also for your comments to Tipitaka.net. I am currently
                                            writing
                                            > on the Buddha's life and presenting it in an unique way. However,
                                            > because of the high demand for historical accuracy and research, I
                                            > may not finished it in the short term. Please have a look and give
                                            me
                                            > your comments:
                                            > http://www.tipitaka.net/b-cube/pageload.php?page=030701a
                                            >
                                            > metta,
                                            > Yong Peng

                                            In your life of the Buddha at the above link, you have "Siddhatta"
                                            as the Bodhisatta name, isnt the Pali spelling - "Siddhattha" ?

                                            BTW thank you for all the great work you are doing on this Pali
                                            group and the Tipitaka.net site.

                                            Take care
                                            Steve
                                          • Ong Yong Peng
                                            Dear Steve and friends, thanks for pointing out the mistake. I have made the correction. Thanks also for your kind words. metta, Yong Peng ... In your life of
                                            Message 21 of 24 , Jul 15, 2003
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                                              Dear Steve and friends,

                                              thanks for pointing out the mistake. I have made the correction.
                                              Thanks also for your kind words.

                                              metta,
                                              Yong Peng

                                              --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, bodhi2500 wrote:
                                              In your life of the Buddha at the above link, you have "Siddhatta" as
                                              the Bodhisatta name, isnt the Pali spelling - "Siddhattha" ?
                                            • nina van gorkom
                                              Dear Yong Peng, You are addressing people coming from many different backgrounds, trying to arouse their interest. It is good that you do this in a manner
                                              Message 22 of 24 , Jul 15, 2003
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                                                Dear Yong Peng,
                                                You are addressing people coming from many different backgrounds, trying to
                                                arouse their interest. It is good that you do this in a manner easily
                                                understandable to people who hear about the Buddha for the first time. You
                                                did some research on the historical background and the books available in
                                                different cultures. I cannot give comments on this, because I did not make
                                                studies in this field. I see at the end that you are going to write about
                                                Asita which is a beautiful story. We can find this in "Pali Proper Names",
                                                by Malalasekera, PTS. Two huge volumes with info about persons in Tipitaka
                                                and Commentaries.
                                                Nina.
                                                op 14-07-2003 15:41 schreef Ong Yong Peng op ypong001@...:

                                                > I am currently writing
                                                > on the Buddha's life and presenting it in an unique way. However,
                                                > because of the high demand for historical accuracy and research, I
                                                > may not finished it in the short term. Please have a look and give me
                                                > your comments:
                                              • Dimitry A. Ivakhnenko (������� ���������
                                                Dear friends, nvg Asita which is a beautiful story. We can find this in Pali Proper Names , nvg by Malalasekera, PTS. Two huge volumes with info about
                                                Message 23 of 24 , Jul 15, 2003
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                                                  Dear friends,

                                                  nvg> Asita which is a beautiful story. We can find this in "Pali Proper Names",
                                                  nvg> by Malalasekera, PTS. Two huge volumes with info about persons in Tipitaka
                                                  nvg> and Commentaries.

                                                  The story about Asita is available at
                                                  http://www.palikanon.com/english/pali_names/ay/asita.htm
                                                  in the Buddhist Dictionary of Pali Proper Names
                                                  http://www.palikanon.com/english/pali_names/dic_idx.html

                                                  Dimitry
                                                • Ong Yong Peng
                                                  Dear Nina, Dimitry and friends, thanks for the pointers. The Dictionary of Proper Names is fantastic, and I have a set back in Singapore too. I will need to
                                                  Message 24 of 24 , Jul 16, 2003
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                                                    Dear Nina, Dimitry and friends,

                                                    thanks for the pointers. The Dictionary of Proper Names is fantastic,
                                                    and I have a set back in Singapore too. I will need to look at more
                                                    resources because I'd like to put in more and go beyond a direct
                                                    answer to the question, with a little twist. :-)

                                                    Thanks again.

                                                    metta,
                                                    Yong Peng

                                                    --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Dimitry A. Ivakhnenko wrote:
                                                    nvg> Asita which is a beautiful story. We can find this in "Pali
                                                    Proper Names", by Malalasekera, PTS. Two huge volumes with info about
                                                    persons in Tipitaka and Commentaries.
                                                    >
                                                    > The story about Asita is available at
                                                    > http://www.palikanon.com/english/pali_names/ay/asita.htm
                                                    > in the Buddhist Dictionary of Pali Proper Names
                                                    > http://www.palikanon.com/english/pali_names/dic_idx.html
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