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On Koran Window 2000, I can't use PaliTrans.exe correctly.

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  • bwlee201
    On Koran Window 2000, I can t use PaliTrans.exe correctly. Are there any method to use PaliTrans.exe on Korean Window 2000?
    Message 1 of 24 , Jun 6 5:48 PM
      On Koran Window 2000, I can't use PaliTrans.exe correctly.

      Are there any method to use PaliTrans.exe on Korean Window 2000?
    • Frank Kuan
      ... The Muslims wiped out Theravadin buddhism from Northern India. Only fitting that they try to finish the job in the modern era. -fk
      Message 2 of 24 , Jun 7 9:34 AM
        --- bwlee201 <bwlee201@...> wrote:
        > On Koran Window 2000, I can't use PaliTrans.exe
        > correctly.
        >

        The Muslims wiped out Theravadin buddhism from
        Northern India. Only fitting that they try to finish
        the job in the modern era.

        -fk


        __________________________________
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      • Piya Tan
        Frank, I think it s only a misspelling for KorEan. How sa~n~naa becomes sa.nkhaara! Sukhi. P ... From: Frank Kuan To:
        Message 3 of 24 , Jun 7 5:36 PM
          Frank,

          I think it's only a misspelling for KorEan. How sa~n~naa becomes sa.nkhaara!

          Sukhi.

          P
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "Frank Kuan" <fcckuan@...>
          To: <Pali@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Sunday, 08 June, 2003 12:34 AM
          Subject: Re: [Pali] On Koran Window 2000, I can't use PaliTrans.exe
          correctly.


          >
          > --- bwlee201 <bwlee201@...> wrote:
          > > On Koran Window 2000, I can't use PaliTrans.exe
          > > correctly.
          > >
          >
          > The Muslims wiped out Theravadin buddhism from
          > Northern India. Only fitting that they try to finish
          > the job in the modern era.
          >
          > -fk
          >
          >
          > __________________________________
          > Do you Yahoo!?
          > Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM).
          > http://calendar.yahoo.com
          >
          >
          > Paaliga.na - a community for Pali students
          > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
          > Yahoo! Groups members can set their delivery options to daily digest or
          web only.
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          > [Send Message] pali@yahoogroups.com
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          >
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          >
          >
          >
        • bwlee201
          Yes. Korean Window 2000. ... sa.nkhaara! ... digest or ... http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
          Message 4 of 24 , Jun 7 6:01 PM
            Yes. Korean Window 2000.



            --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "Piya Tan" <libris@s...> wrote:
            > Frank,
            >
            > I think it's only a misspelling for KorEan. How sa~n~naa becomes
            sa.nkhaara!
            >
            > Sukhi.
            >
            > P
            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: "Frank Kuan" <fcckuan@y...>
            > To: <Pali@yahoogroups.com>
            > Sent: Sunday, 08 June, 2003 12:34 AM
            > Subject: Re: [Pali] On Koran Window 2000, I can't use PaliTrans.exe
            > correctly.
            >
            >
            > >
            > > --- bwlee201 <bwlee201@y...> wrote:
            > > > On Koran Window 2000, I can't use PaliTrans.exe
            > > > correctly.
            > > >
            > >
            > > The Muslims wiped out Theravadin buddhism from
            > > Northern India. Only fitting that they try to finish
            > > the job in the modern era.
            > >
            > > -fk
            > >
            > >
            > > __________________________________
            > > Do you Yahoo!?
            > > Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM).
            > > http://calendar.yahoo.com
            > >
            > >
            > > Paaliga.na - a community for Pali students
            > > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
            > > Yahoo! Groups members can set their delivery options to daily
            digest or
            > web only.
            > > [Homepage] http://www.tipitaka.net
            > > [Send Message] pali@yahoogroups.com
            > > [Mailing List] http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pali
            > > [Discussion] http://tipitaka.suddenlaunch.com
            > >
            > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
            http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
            > >
            > >
            > >
          • Ong Yong Peng
            Dear Lee and friends, only if someone can confirm PaliTrans work on Win2000 at all, it is very hard to tell what is wrong. I am currently still using Win98.
            Message 5 of 24 , Jun 7 9:39 PM
              Dear Lee and friends,

              only if someone can confirm PaliTrans work on Win2000 at all, it is
              very hard to tell what is wrong. I am currently still using Win98.
              One way to find out is to install PaliTrans on a computer using
              Win2000.

              Hopefully, Win2000 supports the fonts (usually not a problem) that
              you are trying to use in PaliTrans.

              Also, if you are new to PaliTrans, you will need sometime to get
              used to it, there may not be any problem with the operating system
              (Win2000 Korean).

              You may also have to make sure that the computer is set to "English
              mode?" if that is the case, I can't be sure.

              Fonts display can be tricky and you can check with Korean Win2000
              support group in Korea or the US for more help.

              metta,
              Yong Peng

              --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, bwlee201 wrote:
              > On Koran Window 2000, I can't use PaliTrans.exe correctly.
              >
              > Are there any method to use PaliTrans.exe on Korean Window 2000?
            • Frank Kuan
              ... It was a joke. Oh well, on to a related topic ... I rented a video recently - an Indian movie based (very loosely) on Emperor Asoka. Predictably, 99% of
              Message 6 of 24 , Jun 8 12:33 AM
                --- Piya Tan <libris@...> wrote:
                > Frank,
                >
                > I think it's only a misspelling for KorEan. How
                > sa~n~naa becomes sa.nkhaara!
                >
                > Sukhi.

                It was a joke. Oh well, on to a related topic ...

                I rented a video recently - an Indian movie based
                (very loosely) on Emperor Asoka. Predictably, 99% of
                movie had nothing to do with what I was really
                interested in - how Asoka had his turning point and
                become a wise and magnanimous Buddhist ruler after
                brutally conquering most of India.

                Any recommendations on a good book that gives some
                juicy info on the Buddhist part of Asoka's life, as
                well as his Buddhist family members?

                Asoka is known for religious tolerance (of non
                buddhist faiths). I'm curious what religions were
                being tolerated by him, and whether that list includes
                Islam.

                -fk



                __________________________________
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              • Everett Thiele
                ... Hi, _Buddhist India_ by TW Rhys Davids is a bit dated, but has a nice chapter on Ashoka. I believe it s reprinted by Motilal Banarsidass. _History of
                Message 7 of 24 , Jun 8 12:45 AM
                  >
                  >Any recommendations on a good book that gives some
                  >juicy info on the Buddhist part of Asoka's life, as
                  >well as his Buddhist family members?

                  Hi,

                  _Buddhist India_ by TW Rhys Davids is a bit dated, but has a nice
                  chapter on Ashoka. I believe it's reprinted by Motilal Banarsidass.

                  _History of Indian Buddhism_ by Etienne Lamotte is very good, of
                  course, but hard to find a copy of, except through libraries.


                  >Asoka is known for religious tolerance (of non
                  >buddhist faiths). I'm curious what religions were
                  >being tolerated by him, and whether that list includes
                  >Islam.

                  Islam was founded after the time of Ashoka so he didn't include it.
                  But I'm sure he would have done so, if he'd had the chance.

                  best,

                  --ET
                • Jim Anderson
                  Dear Yong Peng, I d like to mention that PaliTrans does not work (doesn t do any font conversion) in my Windows 95 environment but it does work in Windows ME
                  Message 8 of 24 , Jun 8 6:54 AM
                    Dear Yong Peng,

                    I'd like to mention that PaliTrans does not work (doesn't do any font
                    conversion) in my Windows 95 environment but it does work in Windows
                    ME on my laptop. I find PaliTrans to be far more complicated and
                    difficult to use than it really need be. I think most people use this
                    program for simple font conversion. As I had done long before
                    PaliTrans became available, I created a small and very useful macro
                    program on WordPerfect 5.1 for DOS where I do most of my conversion.
                    Now this is a really old word program and I can't see why a similar
                    macro program couldn't be written up for the newer and more
                    sophisticated word programs (which I don't have).

                    Best wishes,
                    Jim

                    > Dear Lee and friends,
                    >
                    > only if someone can confirm PaliTrans work on Win2000 at all, it is
                    > very hard to tell what is wrong. I am currently still using Win98.
                    > One way to find out is to install PaliTrans on a computer using
                    > Win2000.
                    >
                    > Hopefully, Win2000 supports the fonts (usually not a problem) that
                    > you are trying to use in PaliTrans.
                    >
                    > Also, if you are new to PaliTrans, you will need sometime to get
                    > used to it, there may not be any problem with the operating system
                    > (Win2000 Korean).
                    >
                    > You may also have to make sure that the computer is set to "English
                    > mode?" if that is the case, I can't be sure.
                    >
                    > Fonts display can be tricky and you can check with Korean Win2000
                    > support group in Korea or the US for more help.
                    >
                    > metta,
                    > Yong Peng
                  • Timothy C. Cahill
                    ... I got quite a chuckle out of this! The typo Koran
                    Message 9 of 24 , Jun 8 8:06 AM
                      >
                      > I think it's only a misspelling for KorEan. How sa~n~naa becomes sa.nkhaara!
                      > >
                      > > The Muslims wiped out Theravadin buddhism from
                      > > Northern India. Only fitting that they try to finish
                      > > the job in the modern era.
                      > >
                      > > -fk

                      I got quite a chuckle out of this! The typo Koran <-- Korean is mirrored
                      nicely by the mistaken view that Muslims were responsible for Theravada's
                      N. Indian decline.

                      best,
                      Tim Cahill
                    • Frank Kuan
                      Thanks for the book references Everett and Robert. I m placing an order from Amazon right now. ... non-buddhist faiths]. ... When I get the book I ll read it
                      Message 10 of 24 , Jun 8 10:05 AM
                        Thanks for the book references Everett and Robert. I'm
                        placing an order from Amazon right now.

                        --- Everett Thiele <rett@...> wrote:
                        >>
                        > Islam was founded after the time of Ashoka so he
                        > didn't include it [religious tolerance of
                        non-buddhist faiths].
                        > But I'm sure he would have done so, if he'd had the
                        > chance.

                        When I get the book I'll read it and find out, but I
                        would have to guess Asoka would not tolerate all
                        religions. For example, if a religion had animal or
                        human sacrifice, or if a religion was
                        [violently/lethally] intolerant of other religions, if
                        I were ruler of the world I certainly wouldn't allow
                        that.
                        -fk








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                      • Frank Kuan
                        Hi Tim, I m no historian, and I don t know all the reasons Theravada died out in India, but I m pretty sure the wholesale slaughter of Buddhist monks and
                        Message 11 of 24 , Jun 8 10:17 AM
                          Hi Tim,

                          I'm no historian, and I don't know all the reasons
                          Theravada died out in India, but I'm pretty sure the
                          wholesale slaughter of Buddhist monks and destruction
                          of Buddhist temples by Muslims did not help.

                          -fk



                          --- "Timothy C. Cahill" <tccahill@...> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > I think it's only a misspelling for KorEan. How
                          > sa~n~naa becomes sa.nkhaara!
                          > > >
                          > > > The Muslims wiped out Theravadin buddhism from
                          > > > Northern India. Only fitting that they try to
                          > finish
                          > > > the job in the modern era.
                          > > >
                          > > > -fk
                          >
                          > I got quite a chuckle out of this! The typo Koran
                          > <-- Korean is mirrored
                          > nicely by the mistaken view that Muslims were
                          > responsible for Theravada's
                          > N. Indian decline.
                          >
                          > best,
                          > Tim Cahill
                          >


                          __________________________________
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                          Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM).
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                        • christine_forsyth
                          Hello Tim and Frank, From Timelines of Buddhist History http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/history/b_chron-txt.htm • In 1193 the Moslems attacked and
                          Message 12 of 24 , Jun 8 5:47 PM
                            Hello Tim and Frank,

                            From "Timelines of Buddhist History"
                            http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/history/b_chron-txt.htm

                            '• In 1193 the Moslems attacked and conquered Magadha, the heartland
                            of Buddhism in India, and with the destruction of the Buddhist
                            Monasteries and Universities (Valabhi and Nalanda) - in that area
                            Buddhism was wiped out.'

                            metta and peace,
                            Christine
                            ---The trouble is that you think you have time ---

                            --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Frank Kuan <fcckuan@y...> wrote:
                            > Hi Tim,
                            >
                            > I'm no historian, and I don't know all the reasons
                            > Theravada died out in India, but I'm pretty sure the
                            > wholesale slaughter of Buddhist monks and destruction
                            > of Buddhist temples by Muslims did not help.
                            >
                            > -fk
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > --- "Timothy C. Cahill" <tccahill@l...> wrote:
                            > > >
                            > > > I think it's only a misspelling for KorEan. How
                            > > sa~n~naa becomes sa.nkhaara!
                            > > > >
                            > > > > The Muslims wiped out Theravadin buddhism from
                            > > > > Northern India. Only fitting that they try to
                            > > finish
                            > > > > the job in the modern era.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > -fk
                            > >
                            > > I got quite a chuckle out of this! The typo Koran
                            > > <-- Korean is mirrored
                            > > nicely by the mistaken view that Muslims were
                            > > responsible for Theravada's
                            > > N. Indian decline.
                            > >
                            > > best,
                            > > Tim Cahill
                          • Piya Tan
                            Frank, I ve written a short paper on the reasons for the decline of Buddhism in India. If you like you would find it at: www.dharma.per.sg under /Buddhist
                            Message 13 of 24 , Jun 8 7:52 PM
                              Frank,

                              I've written a short paper on the reasons for the decline of Buddhism in
                              India. If you like you would find it at:\

                              www.dharma.per.sg

                              under /Buddhist Articles/Buddhism, A Virtual History.

                              It has a biblio.

                              Sukhi.

                              P.
                              ----- Original Message -----
                              From: "Frank Kuan" <fcckuan@...>
                              To: <Pali@yahoogroups.com>
                              Sent: Monday, 09 June, 2003 1:17 AM
                              Subject: Re: [Pali] On Koran Window 2000, I can't use PaliTrans.exe


                              > Hi Tim,
                              >
                              > I'm no historian, and I don't know all the reasons
                              > Theravada died out in India, but I'm pretty sure the
                              > wholesale slaughter of Buddhist monks and destruction
                              > of Buddhist temples by Muslims did not help.
                              >
                              > -fk
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > --- "Timothy C. Cahill" <tccahill@...> wrote:
                              > > >
                              > > > I think it's only a misspelling for KorEan. How
                              > > sa~n~naa becomes sa.nkhaara!
                              > > > >
                              > > > > The Muslims wiped out Theravadin buddhism from
                              > > > > Northern India. Only fitting that they try to
                              > > finish
                              > > > > the job in the modern era.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > -fk
                              > >
                              > > I got quite a chuckle out of this! The typo Koran
                              > > <-- Korean is mirrored
                              > > nicely by the mistaken view that Muslims were
                              > > responsible for Theravada's
                              > > N. Indian decline.
                              > >
                              > > best,
                              > > Tim Cahill
                              > >
                              >
                              >
                              > __________________________________
                              > Do you Yahoo!?
                              > Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM).
                              > http://calendar.yahoo.com
                              >
                              >
                              > Paaliga.na - a community for Pali students
                              > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
                              > Yahoo! Groups members can set their delivery options to daily digest or
                              web only.
                              > [Homepage] http://www.tipitaka.net
                              > [Send Message] pali@yahoogroups.com
                              > [Mailing List] http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pali
                              > [Discussion] http://tipitaka.suddenlaunch.com
                              >
                              > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                              >
                              >
                              >
                            • Dimitry A. Ivakhnenko (������� ��������
                              Hello, JA I can t see why a similar JA macro program couldn t be written up for the newer and more JA sophisticated word programs (which I don t have). I
                              Message 14 of 24 , Jun 8 11:48 PM
                                Hello,

                                JA> I can't see why a similar
                                JA> macro program couldn't be written up for the newer and more
                                JA> sophisticated word programs (which I don't have).

                                I have written such Pali conversion macros for MS Word and the file with
                                them is available at

                                http://i.com.ua/~sangha/dharma/paali/macros.zip (31 Kb)

                                The instructions are in Russian, yet if the need arises they can be
                                translated.

                                As for the input of the Pali text, the simplest way to do so in MS Word
                                is just to assign keyboard shortcuts to the symbols via the "Insert
                                Symbol" option, for example:

                                AA - Alt+Shift+A;
                                aa - Alt+A;
                                II - Alt+Shift+I;
                                ii - Alt+I;
                                UU - Alt+Shift+U;
                                uu - Alt+U;
                                ~N - Alt+Shift+G;
                                ~n - Alt+G.

                                I have found the Unicode-type fonts http://zencomp.com/greatwisdom/fonts/
                                most useful in this regard, since they are correctly converted to any
                                other form including HTML, and have a nice look.

                                Best regards,
                                Dimitry
                              • m. nease
                                Dimitry, Thanks for this excellent information. Unfortunately, when I tried to download the Arial Unicode MS Font from
                                Message 15 of 24 , Jun 9 5:32 AM
                                  Dimitry,

                                  Thanks for this excellent information. Unfortunately, when I tried to
                                  download the Arial Unicode MS Font from
                                  http://office.microsoft.com/downloads/2000/aruniupd.aspx, I found this
                                  message:

                                  "Arial Unicode MS Font for Publisher 2000
                                  Microsoft has removed the Arial Unicode MS Font for Publisher 2000 download.
                                  The font is available with Microsoft Office XP and Microsoft Publisher 2002.

                                  For further information regarding the use of Microsoft fonts, refer to the
                                  Microsoft permissions page relating to fonts".

                                  So it appears that MS is trying to force users to purchase this font with
                                  its software products.

                                  Thanks again for the excellent advice.

                                  mike

                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                  From: Dimitry A. Ivakhnenko (Äìèòðèé Àëåêñååâè÷ Èâàõíåíêî)
                                  <koleso@...>
                                  To: Jim Anderson <Pali@yahoogroups.com>
                                  Sent: Sunday, June 08, 2003 11:48 PM
                                  Subject: [Pali] Word Macros for Pali


                                  > Hello,
                                  >
                                  > JA> I can't see why a similar
                                  > JA> macro program couldn't be written up for the newer and more
                                  > JA> sophisticated word programs (which I don't have).
                                  >
                                  > I have written such Pali conversion macros for MS Word and the file with
                                  > them is available at
                                  >
                                  > http://i.com.ua/~sangha/dharma/paali/macros.zip (31 Kb)
                                  >
                                  > The instructions are in Russian, yet if the need arises they can be
                                  > translated.
                                  >
                                  > As for the input of the Pali text, the simplest way to do so in MS Word
                                  > is just to assign keyboard shortcuts to the symbols via the "Insert
                                  > Symbol" option, for example:
                                  >
                                  > AA - Alt+Shift+A;
                                  > aa - Alt+A;
                                  > II - Alt+Shift+I;
                                  > ii - Alt+I;
                                  > UU - Alt+Shift+U;
                                  > uu - Alt+U;
                                  > ~N - Alt+Shift+G;
                                  > ~n - Alt+G.
                                  >
                                  > I have found the Unicode-type fonts http://zencomp.com/greatwisdom/fonts/
                                  > most useful in this regard, since they are correctly converted to any
                                  > other form including HTML, and have a nice look.
                                  >
                                  > Best regards,
                                  > Dimitry
                                • m. nease
                                  p.s. Does anyone know of a downloadable, open-code unicode font that will convert correctly to HTML? Thanks again, mike ... From: m. nease
                                  Message 16 of 24 , Jun 9 5:46 AM
                                    p.s. Does anyone know of a downloadable, open-code unicode font that will
                                    convert correctly to HTML?

                                    Thanks again,

                                    mike

                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                    From: m. nease <mlnease@...>
                                    To: <Pali@yahoogroups.com>
                                    Sent: Monday, June 09, 2003 5:32 AM
                                    Subject: Re: [Pali] Word Macros for Pali


                                    > Dimitry,
                                    >
                                    > Thanks for this excellent information. Unfortunately, when I tried to
                                    > download the Arial Unicode MS Font from
                                    > http://office.microsoft.com/downloads/2000/aruniupd.aspx, I found this
                                    > message:
                                    >
                                    > "Arial Unicode MS Font for Publisher 2000
                                    > Microsoft has removed the Arial Unicode MS Font for Publisher 2000
                                    download.
                                    > The font is available with Microsoft Office XP and Microsoft Publisher
                                    2002.
                                    >
                                    > For further information regarding the use of Microsoft fonts, refer to the
                                    > Microsoft permissions page relating to fonts".
                                    >
                                    > So it appears that MS is trying to force users to purchase this font with
                                    > its software products.
                                    >
                                    > Thanks again for the excellent advice.
                                    >
                                    > mike
                                    >
                                    > ----- Original Message -----
                                    > From: Dimitry A. Ivakhnenko (Äìèòðèé Àëåêñååâè÷ Èâàõíåíêî)
                                    > <koleso@...>
                                    > To: Jim Anderson <Pali@yahoogroups.com>
                                    > Sent: Sunday, June 08, 2003 11:48 PM
                                    > Subject: [Pali] Word Macros for Pali
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > > Hello,
                                    > >
                                    > > JA> I can't see why a similar
                                    > > JA> macro program couldn't be written up for the newer and more
                                    > > JA> sophisticated word programs (which I don't have).
                                    > >
                                    > > I have written such Pali conversion macros for MS Word and the file with
                                    > > them is available at
                                    > >
                                    > > http://i.com.ua/~sangha/dharma/paali/macros.zip (31 Kb)
                                    > >
                                    > > The instructions are in Russian, yet if the need arises they can be
                                    > > translated.
                                    > >
                                    > > As for the input of the Pali text, the simplest way to do so in MS Word
                                    > > is just to assign keyboard shortcuts to the symbols via the "Insert
                                    > > Symbol" option, for example:
                                    > >
                                    > > AA - Alt+Shift+A;
                                    > > aa - Alt+A;
                                    > > II - Alt+Shift+I;
                                    > > ii - Alt+I;
                                    > > UU - Alt+Shift+U;
                                    > > uu - Alt+U;
                                    > > ~N - Alt+Shift+G;
                                    > > ~n - Alt+G.
                                    > >
                                    > > I have found the Unicode-type fonts
                                    http://zencomp.com/greatwisdom/fonts/
                                    > > most useful in this regard, since they are correctly converted to any
                                    > > other form including HTML, and have a nice look.
                                    > >
                                    > > Best regards,
                                    > > Dimitry
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Paaliga.na - a community for Pali students
                                    > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
                                    > Yahoo! Groups members can set their delivery options to daily digest or
                                    web only.
                                    > [Homepage] http://www.tipitaka.net
                                    > [Send Message] pali@yahoogroups.com
                                    > [Mailing List] http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pali
                                    > [Discussion] http://tipitaka.suddenlaunch.com
                                    >
                                    > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                  • Dimitry A. Ivakhnenko (������� ��������
                                    Hello Mike, mn p.s. Does anyone know of a downloadable, open-code unicode font mn that will convert correctly to HTML? You can use Titus Cyberbit from
                                    Message 17 of 24 , Jun 9 9:16 AM
                                      Hello Mike,

                                      mn> p.s. Does anyone know of a downloadable, open-code unicode font
                                      mn> that will convert correctly to HTML?

                                      You can use Titus Cyberbit from
                                      http://titus.fkidg1.uni-frankfurt.de/unicode/tituut.asp
                                      ftp://ftp.netscape.com/pub/communicator/extras/fonts/windows/

                                      This is a full Unicode font.

                                      Yet for the purposes of Pali texts I would advise specially adapted
                                      fonts, found at
                                      http://zencomp.com/greatwisdom/fonts/
                                      especially CN-Times,
                                      since usual Unicode font doesn't have retroflex letters.
                                      CN-Times can be converted correctly to HTML, and most letters are converted
                                      directly to the simplest code (for example, aa to ā).

                                      Specifically for the purpose of HTML conversion I have compiled a
                                      MS Word macros that converts a CN-Times HTML retroflex letters codes (for
                                      example, ṃ) into font-free codes (for example, ṃ).

                                      You can see the results of such approach at

                                      http://users.i.com.ua/~sangha/dharma/canon/mn148.htm
                                      http://users.i.com.ua/~sangha/dharma/canon/dn26.htm
                                      http://users.i.com.ua/~sangha/dharma/canon/dn16.htm
                                      http://users.i.com.ua/~sangha/dharma/paali/etimolog.htm
                                      http://users.i.com.ua/~sangha/dharma/paali/declense.htm
                                      http://users.i.com.ua/~sangha/dharma/paali/conjugat.htm

                                      The only browser I know of which doesn't accept such codes is
                                      Macintosh IE 5.1. All other seem to digest them well.

                                      Best wishes,
                                      Dimitry
                                    • Timothy C. Cahill
                                      Hi Frank & Christine (and others), It s hard to respond briefly to this remark: but I m pretty sure the wholesale slaughter of Buddhist monks and destruction
                                      Message 18 of 24 , Jun 9 10:35 AM
                                        Hi Frank & Christine (and others),

                                        It's hard to respond briefly to this remark: "but I'm pretty sure the
                                        wholesale slaughter of Buddhist monks and destruction of Buddhist temples
                                        by Muslims did not help" --except to say that the near certainty *is*
                                        misplaced. First we ought to note that persecution often serves to enhance
                                        group identity, thereby *strengthening* religions. Clearly that wasn't the
                                        case when Turks came to power in 12th century India. Buddhism (not just
                                        Theravada) had been in sharp decline on the sub-Himalayan continent for
                                        quite some time. Its failure to differentiate itself from a transformed
                                        Hinduism (which now eschewed animal sacrifice, 'accepted' the Buddha as an
                                        avatara of Vishnu, etc.) played a role, as did Hindu hostility. The
                                        efforts of the great Advaitin, Sankara, in organizing Hindu monastic life
                                        Shaiva, especially) provided a rival to Buddhism's long-held advantage in
                                        this sphere.

                                        The time-line blurb from the buddha-net page is not merely misleading,
                                        but it's likely factually incorrect. By 1193 Buddhism probably had no true
                                        'heartland in India' --that's the misleading part. The assertion that
                                        "Moslems" (even the spelling belies an antiquarian approach) destroyed
                                        Buddhist monasteries is probably wrong in many cases. For the details
                                        (i.e., the 'history') on Vikramasila see:

                                        Chaudhary, R. (1978) "Decline of Vikramasila." Journal of Indian History,
                                        56, pp. 213-235. (Trivandrum) and also

                                        Narayan, B. (1977-78) "The Vikramasila Mahavihara Site. Some New Light on
                                        the Basis of Archeological Evidence." Journal of the Bihar Research
                                        Society, 63-64, pp. 212-214.

                                        Chaudhary provides evidence which largely exonerates Bakhtiyar Khaldi from
                                        this heinous act, while implicating local Biharis. In other instances the
                                        Turkish rulers seem to have mistaken walled monasteries as fortresses. No
                                        religious (i.e., Islamic) motives seem to have been present. The well
                                        known incident of the burning of the Nalanda library has been documented
                                        by S. H. Askari & Q. Ahmed (eds.) (1983-1987) _COMPREHENSIVE HISTORY OF
                                        BIHAR_, 2 vols. Patna. They and D.R. Patil, author of _ANTIQUARIAN
                                        REMAINS AT BHUBANESHWAR_ (Calcutta, 1961), basically concur that the act
                                        of arson was not committed by the (Muslim) Turks.

                                        It also should be pointed out that *reciprocal* massacres between Hindus &
                                        Buddhists took place in India during the 7th century --before Muslim
                                        generals raided Transoxiana & Sind in the early 8th cent. The early
                                        Ghaznavids seemed interested in power & wealth much more than in spreading
                                        Islam. Wealth was found in temples, and I'd guess in monasteries as well.
                                        Yet Hinduism not only survived, but flourished in India despite the
                                        losses.

                                        Other sources which shed light on the decline of Buddhism point to even
                                        earlier periods. By the end of the 5th century (!) Buddhist temples in
                                        South India were replaced by temples to Shiva at Kanchipuram, Srisailam,
                                        Vengipura (A.P.), etc. Related to the destruction of Buddhist images
                                        (long before Islam arrives) is the work of H. Sarkar and B.N. Misra on
                                        Nagarjunakonda (Delhi: 1966).

                                        If you have to use a metaphor for this I'd suggest the establishment
                                        (not the 'arrival') of Muslim Turks as the last nail in Buddhism's coffin
                                        in N. India --provided we acknowledge that there were a dozen or so nails
                                        already well hammered such that the lid was not going to open again. Of
                                        course, if non-historians prefer to cling to 'historical' ideas that can
                                        not be supported by historical evidence, so be it!

                                        Sorry for the length of all this!

                                        best wishes,
                                        Tim Cahill
                                      • Frank Kuan
                                        Thanks for the history lesson Tim. Sounds plausible to me. Reminds me of a recent Bush quote on diplomatic relations with Saudi Arabia, he said something to
                                        Message 19 of 24 , Jun 9 6:08 PM
                                          Thanks for the history lesson Tim. Sounds plausible to
                                          me. Reminds me of a recent Bush quote on diplomatic
                                          relations with Saudi Arabia, he said something to the
                                          effect of, "We can work together [with the Saudis]
                                          because I believe in the Almighty, and [Leader of
                                          Saudi] believes in the Almighty." Bush did not say
                                          whether Almighty referred to the dollar or an
                                          imaginary creator deity. Perhaps both were implied.
                                          I'm willing to believe in some cases Muslim conquests
                                          may be primarily motivated by seeking wealth, but the
                                          bombing of the Buddhist statues in Afghanistan is just
                                          one of many examples of their willingness to brutally
                                          wipe out competing religions.

                                          -fk

                                          --- "Timothy C. Cahill" <tccahill@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > Hi Frank & Christine (and others),
                                          >
                                          > It's hard to respond briefly to this remark:
                                          > "but I'm pretty sure the
                                          > wholesale slaughter of Buddhist monks and
                                          > destruction of Buddhist temples
                                          > by Muslims did not help" --except to say that the
                                          > near certainty *is*
                                          > misplaced. First we ought to note that persecution
                                          > often serves to enhance
                                          > group identity, thereby *strengthening* religions.
                                          > Clearly that wasn't the
                                          > case when Turks came to power in 12th century India.
                                          > Buddhism (not just
                                          > Theravada) had been in sharp decline on the
                                          > sub-Himalayan continent for
                                          > quite some time. Its failure to differentiate itself
                                          > from a transformed
                                          > Hinduism (which now eschewed animal sacrifice,
                                          > 'accepted' the Buddha as an
                                          > avatara of Vishnu, etc.) played a role, as did Hindu
                                          > hostility. The
                                          > efforts of the great Advaitin, Sankara, in
                                          > organizing Hindu monastic life
                                          > Shaiva, especially) provided a rival to Buddhism's
                                          > long-held advantage in
                                          > this sphere.
                                          >
                                          > The time-line blurb from the buddha-net page is
                                          > not merely misleading,
                                          > but it's likely factually incorrect. By 1193
                                          > Buddhism probably had no true
                                          > 'heartland in India' --that's the misleading part.
                                          > The assertion that
                                          > "Moslems" (even the spelling belies an antiquarian
                                          > approach) destroyed
                                          > Buddhist monasteries is probably wrong in many
                                          > cases. For the details
                                          > (i.e., the 'history') on Vikramasila see:
                                          >
                                          > Chaudhary, R. (1978) "Decline of Vikramasila."
                                          > Journal of Indian History,
                                          > 56, pp. 213-235. (Trivandrum) and also
                                          >
                                          > Narayan, B. (1977-78) "The Vikramasila Mahavihara
                                          > Site. Some New Light on
                                          > the Basis of Archeological Evidence." Journal of the
                                          > Bihar Research
                                          > Society, 63-64, pp. 212-214.
                                          >
                                          > Chaudhary provides evidence which largely exonerates
                                          > Bakhtiyar Khaldi from
                                          > this heinous act, while implicating local Biharis.
                                          > In other instances the
                                          > Turkish rulers seem to have mistaken walled
                                          > monasteries as fortresses. No
                                          > religious (i.e., Islamic) motives seem to have been
                                          > present. The well
                                          > known incident of the burning of the Nalanda library
                                          > has been documented
                                          > by S. H. Askari & Q. Ahmed (eds.) (1983-1987)
                                          > _COMPREHENSIVE HISTORY OF
                                          > BIHAR_, 2 vols. Patna. They and D.R. Patil, author
                                          > of _ANTIQUARIAN
                                          > REMAINS AT BHUBANESHWAR_ (Calcutta, 1961), basically
                                          > concur that the act
                                          > of arson was not committed by the (Muslim) Turks.
                                          >
                                          > It also should be pointed out that *reciprocal*
                                          > massacres between Hindus &
                                          > Buddhists took place in India during the 7th century
                                          > --before Muslim
                                          > generals raided Transoxiana & Sind in the early 8th
                                          > cent. The early
                                          > Ghaznavids seemed interested in power & wealth much
                                          > more than in spreading
                                          > Islam. Wealth was found in temples, and I'd guess in
                                          > monasteries as well.
                                          > Yet Hinduism not only survived, but flourished in
                                          > India despite the
                                          > losses.
                                          >
                                          > Other sources which shed light on the decline of
                                          > Buddhism point to even
                                          > earlier periods. By the end of the 5th century (!)
                                          > Buddhist temples in
                                          > South India were replaced by temples to Shiva at
                                          > Kanchipuram, Srisailam,
                                          > Vengipura (A.P.), etc. Related to the destruction
                                          > of Buddhist images
                                          > (long before Islam arrives) is the work of H. Sarkar
                                          > and B.N. Misra on
                                          > Nagarjunakonda (Delhi: 1966).
                                          >
                                          > If you have to use a metaphor for this I'd
                                          > suggest the establishment
                                          > (not the 'arrival') of Muslim Turks as the last nail
                                          > in Buddhism's coffin
                                          > in N. India --provided we acknowledge that there
                                          > were a dozen or so nails
                                          > already well hammered such that the lid was not
                                          > going to open again. Of
                                          > course, if non-historians prefer to cling to
                                          > 'historical' ideas that can
                                          > not be supported by historical evidence, so be it!
                                          >
                                          > Sorry for the length of all this!
                                          >
                                          > best wishes,
                                          > Tim Cahill
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >


                                          __________________________________
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                                        • Ong Yong Peng
                                          Dear Frank, Tim, Christine and friends, it is true that Buddhism was already in steady decline at the time of muslim invasion to North India. A study of South
                                          Message 20 of 24 , Jun 11 1:06 AM
                                            Dear Frank, Tim, Christine and friends,

                                            it is true that Buddhism was already in steady decline at the time of
                                            muslim invasion to North India. A study of South Indian history would
                                            points that out. That was mainly due to the resurgence of Brahmanism,
                                            the renewed interests in certain Brahmin practices such as tantric
                                            practices, and its adaptation by the rising Vajrayana school had
                                            caused a blurring of lines between Buddhism and Brahmanism.

                                            The ruthless muslims only make the end came quicker, and possibly
                                            destroying bulks of Sanskrit literature now available only in Chinese
                                            and Tibetan. The British colonisation, the civil strife and social
                                            unrest didn't help much.

                                            The term Hinduism actually makes things worst, like Taoism in China,
                                            it *can* refer to all indigenous religious practices in India,
                                            bringing Buddhism and Jainism under its fold. That is why visitors to
                                            country like Bhutan and Nepal will learn from the locals that
                                            Hinduism and Buddhism are actually *the same*.

                                            [It may be interesting to know that, throughout history, Buddhism is
                                            a religion that does not perform well in turbulent times. This is
                                            probably due to Buddha's message of compassion and wisdom. For
                                            example, in China, alternative views such as Taoism and Confucianism
                                            always take precedence during wartimes. On the other hand, in the
                                            prolonged period of peace and prosperity in the Tang dynasty,
                                            Buddhism flourished with eight major schools, each with many sects
                                            and branches.]

                                            metta,
                                            Yong Peng
                                          • sakya umanathan
                                            Namo Buddha We all are ignoring or missing the facts that how Buddhism declined in South India. South India played major role till 14th century AD. Kanchi was
                                            Message 21 of 24 , Jun 11 2:16 AM
                                              Namo Buddha

                                              We all are ignoring or missing the facts that how
                                              Buddhism declined in South India. South India played
                                              major role till 14th century AD. Kanchi was a major
                                              Buddhist study center. Many of the world famous
                                              Buddhist scholar from Kanchi. Pali was a living
                                              language till 14th century AD in South India. Pali
                                              Grammer was writtien at that time. Many Pali scholars
                                              went from South India to translate Singala texts in to
                                              Pali.

                                              We are thank full to Turks or Muslims who came and
                                              distroyed all the Buddhis sites. Otherwise all would
                                              have merged under Hindu lable as what happened in
                                              South India. In South India with the effort of Sankara
                                              and his followers all Buddhists sites are merged under
                                              Hindu banner.

                                              Many of the Hindu Temples of South India were once
                                              Buddhists. It is very difficult to deferentiate Kanchi
                                              from Hindus as we can do Nalanda in North.

                                              There is a serious study and analyse is needed to
                                              Study Buddhist South Inda.

                                              Metta
                                              Sakya
                                              bavatu sabbamangalang


                                              --- Frank Kuan <fcckuan@...> wrote: > Thanks for
                                              the history lesson Tim. Sounds plausible
                                              > to
                                              > me. Reminds me of a recent Bush quote on diplomatic
                                              > relations with Saudi Arabia, he said something to
                                              > the
                                              > effect of, "We can work together [with the Saudis]
                                              > because I believe in the Almighty, and [Leader of
                                              > Saudi] believes in the Almighty." Bush did not say
                                              > whether Almighty referred to the dollar or an
                                              > imaginary creator deity. Perhaps both were implied.
                                              > I'm willing to believe in some cases Muslim
                                              > conquests
                                              > may be primarily motivated by seeking wealth, but
                                              > the
                                              > bombing of the Buddhist statues in Afghanistan is
                                              > just
                                              > one of many examples of their willingness to
                                              > brutally
                                              > wipe out competing religions.
                                              >
                                              > -fk
                                              >
                                              > --- "Timothy C. Cahill" <tccahill@...> wrote:
                                              > >
                                              > > Hi Frank & Christine (and others),
                                              > >
                                              > > It's hard to respond briefly to this remark:
                                              > > "but I'm pretty sure the
                                              > > wholesale slaughter of Buddhist monks and
                                              > > destruction of Buddhist temples
                                              > > by Muslims did not help" --except to say that the
                                              > > near certainty *is*
                                              > > misplaced. First we ought to note that persecution
                                              > > often serves to enhance
                                              > > group identity, thereby *strengthening* religions.
                                              > > Clearly that wasn't the
                                              > > case when Turks came to power in 12th century
                                              > India.
                                              > > Buddhism (not just
                                              > > Theravada) had been in sharp decline on the
                                              > > sub-Himalayan continent for
                                              > > quite some time. Its failure to differentiate
                                              > itself
                                              > > from a transformed
                                              > > Hinduism (which now eschewed animal sacrifice,
                                              > > 'accepted' the Buddha as an
                                              > > avatara of Vishnu, etc.) played a role, as did
                                              > Hindu
                                              > > hostility. The
                                              > > efforts of the great Advaitin, Sankara, in
                                              > > organizing Hindu monastic life
                                              > > Shaiva, especially) provided a rival to Buddhism's
                                              > > long-held advantage in
                                              > > this sphere.
                                              > >
                                              > > The time-line blurb from the buddha-net page is
                                              > > not merely misleading,
                                              > > but it's likely factually incorrect. By 1193
                                              > > Buddhism probably had no true
                                              > > 'heartland in India' --that's the misleading part.
                                              > > The assertion that
                                              > > "Moslems" (even the spelling belies an antiquarian
                                              > > approach) destroyed
                                              > > Buddhist monasteries is probably wrong in many
                                              > > cases. For the details
                                              > > (i.e., the 'history') on Vikramasila see:
                                              > >
                                              > > Chaudhary, R. (1978) "Decline of Vikramasila."
                                              > > Journal of Indian History,
                                              > > 56, pp. 213-235. (Trivandrum) and also
                                              > >
                                              > > Narayan, B. (1977-78) "The Vikramasila Mahavihara
                                              > > Site. Some New Light on
                                              > > the Basis of Archeological Evidence." Journal of
                                              > the
                                              > > Bihar Research
                                              > > Society, 63-64, pp. 212-214.
                                              > >
                                              > > Chaudhary provides evidence which largely
                                              > exonerates
                                              > > Bakhtiyar Khaldi from
                                              > > this heinous act, while implicating local Biharis.
                                              > > In other instances the
                                              > > Turkish rulers seem to have mistaken walled
                                              > > monasteries as fortresses. No
                                              > > religious (i.e., Islamic) motives seem to have
                                              > been
                                              > > present. The well
                                              > > known incident of the burning of the Nalanda
                                              > library
                                              > > has been documented
                                              > > by S. H. Askari & Q. Ahmed (eds.) (1983-1987)
                                              > > _COMPREHENSIVE HISTORY OF
                                              > > BIHAR_, 2 vols. Patna. They and D.R. Patil,
                                              > author
                                              > > of _ANTIQUARIAN
                                              > > REMAINS AT BHUBANESHWAR_ (Calcutta, 1961),
                                              > basically
                                              > > concur that the act
                                              > > of arson was not committed by the (Muslim) Turks.
                                              > >
                                              > > It also should be pointed out that *reciprocal*
                                              > > massacres between Hindus &
                                              > > Buddhists took place in India during the 7th
                                              > century
                                              > > --before Muslim
                                              > > generals raided Transoxiana & Sind in the early
                                              > 8th
                                              > > cent. The early
                                              > > Ghaznavids seemed interested in power & wealth
                                              > much
                                              > > more than in spreading
                                              > > Islam. Wealth was found in temples, and I'd guess
                                              > in
                                              > > monasteries as well.
                                              > > Yet Hinduism not only survived, but flourished in
                                              > > India despite the
                                              > > losses.
                                              > >
                                              > > Other sources which shed light on the decline
                                              > of
                                              > > Buddhism point to even
                                              > > earlier periods. By the end of the 5th century (!)
                                              > > Buddhist temples in
                                              > > South India were replaced by temples to Shiva at
                                              > > Kanchipuram, Srisailam,
                                              > > Vengipura (A.P.), etc. Related to the destruction
                                              > > of Buddhist images
                                              > > (long before Islam arrives) is the work of H.
                                              > Sarkar
                                              > > and B.N. Misra on
                                              > > Nagarjunakonda (Delhi: 1966).
                                              > >
                                              > > If you have to use a metaphor for this I'd
                                              > > suggest the establishment
                                              > > (not the 'arrival') of Muslim Turks as the last
                                              > nail
                                              > > in Buddhism's coffin
                                              > > in N. India --provided we acknowledge that there
                                              > > were a dozen or so nails
                                              > > already well hammered such that the lid was not
                                              > > going to open again. Of
                                              > > course, if non-historians prefer to cling to
                                              > > 'historical' ideas that can
                                              > > not be supported by historical evidence, so be it!
                                              > >
                                              > > Sorry for the length of all this!
                                              > >
                                              > > best wishes,
                                              > > Tim Cahill
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > __________________________________
                                              > Do you Yahoo!?
                                              > Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to
                                              > Outlook(TM).
                                              > http://calendar.yahoo.com
                                              >

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                                            • Ong Yong Peng
                                              Dear friends, on top of what Piya and Christine have offered, here is a list of online resources on Buddhist history for the history-savvy people:
                                              Message 22 of 24 , Jun 11 4:31 AM
                                                Dear friends,

                                                on top of what Piya and Christine have offered, here is a list of
                                                online resources on Buddhist history for the history-savvy people:

                                                http://www.ship.edu/~cgboeree/buddhahist.html
                                                http://www.simhas.org/timeline.html
                                                http://www.pratyeka.org/buddhist-history/
                                                http://www.horne28.freeserve.co.uk/buddate.htm

                                                I make no guarantee as to their authenticity, read at your own risk.
                                                An elaborated knowledge of Buddhist history is only possible from
                                                readings from many sources.

                                                metta,
                                                Yong Peng
                                              • Timothy C. Cahill
                                                Dear all, Forgive in advance me for using the rather gauche method of line-by-line commentary, and for the length of this. ... Glad that we can agree here, but
                                                Message 23 of 24 , Jun 11 7:46 AM
                                                  Dear all,

                                                  Forgive in advance me for using the rather gauche method of
                                                  line-by-line commentary, and for the length of this.

                                                  > it is true that Buddhism was already in steady decline at the time of
                                                  > muslim invasion to North India.

                                                  Glad that we can agree here, but then why recommend a site which 'blurbs':
                                                  "1197 ... Buddhism starts to decline in India following Moslem
                                                  invasions" ? It is interesting how the titles of such lists begin with
                                                  "Some significant dates in Buddhist History" --but then go on not to list
                                                  merely dates but to codify a kind of malicious set of stereotypes. A quick
                                                  look at the following list of sites convinces me that they are, at best,
                                                  trivial and at worst erroneous. Those interested in this aspect of India's
                                                  history might best consult the sources I posted previously.

                                                  Saying that "the ruthless Muslims only made the end quicker" has some
                                                  truth to it. But better to use the phrase "ruthless Turks" (more accurate)
                                                  and also to better distinguish these empire-builders from the easy-going,
                                                  adaptable Sufi Muslims of the Chishtiyyah order. Their presence in N.
                                                  India (esp. Lahore) from the 11th century produced much valuable synthesis
                                                  in the religious life of the region. The Chishtiyyahs' willingness to
                                                  adopt various 'Hindu' practices (breath control, sitting postures or
                                                  'aasanas', etc.) helped foster tolerance and interreligious respect. This
                                                  bore fruit at the highest political level during Akbar's reign.

                                                  It should also be pointed out that Buddhism *did* survive, marginally,
                                                  in Orissa -particularly the great monastery of Ratnagiri (16th c.). If
                                                  "ruthless Muslims" were so brutal, why spare *any* monasteries. First,
                                                  because monasteries weren't targeted bec. they were Buddhist. Second,
                                                  their motives for contral weren't 'Islamic'. (Just as the current U.S.
                                                  ventures into Afghanistan & Iraq aren't particularly 'Christian' despite
                                                  some of President G. Bush's rhetoric.) Moreover, early in the 16th c. King
                                                  Prataparudra persecuted Buddhists as a part of his royal ascendency.

                                                  A quick note: the idea the Hindus & Buddhists peacefully coexisted in
                                                  India most of the time is pretty much a myth. For the most convincing
                                                  evidence of the 'contested' nature of their interaction most recently, see
                                                  two works by D.N. Gellner:

                                                  (1) "The Newar Buddhist Monastery An Anthropological and Historical
                                                  Typology" in _HERITAGE OF THE KATHMANDU VALLEY. PROCEEDINGS OF AN
                                                  INTERNATIONAL CONFERENCE IN LuBECK, JUNE 1985, pp. 356-414. (1987)

                                                  (2) _MONK, HOUSEHOLDER, AND TANTRIC PRIEST. NEWAR BUDDHISM AND ITS
                                                  HIERARCHY OF RITUAL_, Cambridge, 1987.

                                                  and also

                                                  Verardi, G. "Excavations at Harigaon, Kathmandu, Final Report. (IsMEO
                                                  Reports and Memoirs 25), 2 vols., Rome, 1992.

                                                  Literary evidence was preserved in Madhava's Shankara-degvijaya, which
                                                  rejoices in the drowning of "thousands of Buddhists." (Curious how often
                                                  these passages are overlooked by those eager to point out certain Qur'anic
                                                  passages.)

                                                  Finally, for serious studies of Buddhism in South India interested
                                                  readers might consult the following

                                                  Story of Buddhism with special reference to South India by A. Aiyappan
                                                  and P.R. Srinivasan. Chennai: 2000.

                                                  Imagining a place for Buddhism: literary culture and religious community
                                                  in Tamil-speaking South India, by Anne E. Monius. Oxford University Press,
                                                  2001.

                                                  Vajrayana Buddhist centres in South India / B. Subrahmanyam.
                                                  Delhi: Bharatiya Kala Prakashan, 2001
                                                  -------------------------------------

                                                  IMHO, the history sources which treat religion on the web are generally
                                                  *very* unreliable. We're still *far* better off using traditional studies,
                                                  text books and monographs. Happily the web sources for learning Pali are
                                                  much better!

                                                  best wishes,
                                                  Tim Cahill
                                                • Ong Yong Peng
                                                  Dear Tim and friends, thanks for the explanation, Tim. I am no expert in history. I shall humbly withdraw the term ruthless , although, in my opinion, all
                                                  Message 24 of 24 , Jun 11 8:24 AM
                                                    Dear Tim and friends,

                                                    thanks for the explanation, Tim. I am no expert in history. I shall
                                                    humbly withdraw the term 'ruthless', although, in my opinion, all
                                                    invaders (not 'liberators') are still ruthless, regardless of the
                                                    grounds of the invasion.

                                                    As for the use of Turks over muslims, I have regarded, as I have
                                                    learnt from some books, that the invasion of N. India is part of the
                                                    entire series of Islamic conquest starting with prophet Muhammad in
                                                    Mecca and Medina. However, the positive distinction you have
                                                    provided on the fact that not all muslims are war-driven is an
                                                    important point for our multi-religious society. I do not dispute
                                                    over this.

                                                    I am glad to have learnt a good history lesson from everyone. Thanks.

                                                    metta,
                                                    Yong Peng
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