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Re: Mahaaraahulovaadasutta, bhaavayato:

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  • Ong Yong Peng
    Dear Nina, Jim and friends, allow me to add that, I have taken Pathaviisama~nhi te bhaavana.m bhaavayato te pathaviisama~nhi bhaavana.m bhaavayato te
    Message 1 of 30 , May 3, 2003
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      Dear Nina, Jim and friends,

      allow me to add that, I have taken "Pathaviisama~nhi te bhaavana.m
      bhaavayato" >> "te pathaviisama~nhi bhaavana.m bhaavayato"

      te bhaavayato = while/as you are developing
      pathaviisama~nhi bhaavana.m = development of the mind to be like the
      earth??? If the enclitic 'hi' for 'pathaviisama~nhi' can be fully
      understood, we could render a better sentence in English.

      Please correct me if I am wrong.

      metta,
      Yong Peng

      --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Ong Yong Peng wrote:
      "Pathaviisama.m, Raahula, bhaavana.m bhaavehi. Pathaviisama~nhi te,
      Raahula, bhaavana.m bhaavayato uppannaa manaapaamanaapaa phassaa
      citta.m na pariyaadaaya .thassanti.
      >
      I have tried to redo it again:
      >
      According to PED:
      bhaavanna=producing, dwelling on something, putting one's thoughts
      to, application, developing by means of thought or meditation,
      cultivation by mind, culture.
      >
      "Rahula, cultivate the mental quality that is like the earth. Rahula,
      while you are cultivating the mental quality that is like the earth,
      pleasant and unpleasant impressions that have arisen will not
      overwhelm the mind and persist.
    • nina van gorkom
      Dear Jim and all, op 03-05-2003 17:48 schreef Jim Anderson op jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca: Could ... N: I think it is likely, because the sentence has more than
      Message 2 of 30 , May 4, 2003
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        Dear Jim and all,
        op 03-05-2003 17:48 schreef Jim Anderson op jimanderson_on@...:
        Could
        > this not be a genitive absolute construction as described by Warder,
        > p. 58 or Duroiselle, no. 603?
        >
        > pathaviisama~nhi te, raahula, bhaavana.m bhaavayato, . . . -- M I 423
        >
        > For while (or when, as) you, Rahula, are developing the development
        > that is like the earth, . . .
        N: I think it is likely, because the sentence has more than one agent. the
        other being: the impressions, etc. phassaa.
        J: I'm not too clear on a number of parts in the sentence. I find
        > 'develeping the development' awkward in English. Also, the placement
        > of the 'na' before 'pariyaadaaya' instead of before '.thassanti' seems
        > unusual to me.
        N: I think na is for both. I compared the Co:
        <citta.m na pariyaadaaya .thassantiiti ete phassaa uppajjitvaa
        As to the words, they do not overcome the mind and persist, this means,
        after these impressions have arisen,
        tava citta.m antomu.t.thigata.m karonto viya
        while the mind just makes as it were a clenched fist >
        I compared with the Thai, and avoiding the awkward: having not overcome..
        they do not persist, the Thai uses:they do not overcome the mind, but here
        is not translated: and do not persist, .thassanti.
        And there is also this in the Co:
        pariyaadaaya gahetvaa .thaatu.m na sakkhissanti,
        here we have gahetvaa and then at end: na sakkhissanti. I take the
        gahetvaa: after (the mind) has seized them... ??they do not remain. In the
        subco: this adds :pariggahetvaa, as a gloss to gahetvaa:
        <gahetvaati kusalappavattiyaa okaasadaanavasena pariggahetvaa.
        As to the words, having taken hold of, because of the opportunity given for
        a skilful life, after he has comprehended. >
        This is difficult for me. What is the gahetvaa, who is doing it.
        Earlier in the Co. it was stated; Rahula had to develop vipassana pa~n~naa.
        The meaning is just as in the Elephant's Footprint Discourse, where the
        monk, after he has learnt the elements, is not disturbed by painful bodily
        impressions nor by harsh words.
        By the way if you have time, I stared so long on tava (in the Co.), va is:
        just, only, indeed, but the ta: ta.m? Because indeed, or because just?
        Thank you,
        Nina.
      • nina van gorkom
        Dear Yong Peng, ... N:Now Jim just suggested it to be genitive absolute: when you, Rahula, are cultivating (applying yourself to) the development that is like
        Message 3 of 30 , May 4, 2003
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          Dear Yong Peng,
          op 03-05-2003 02:02 schreef Ong Yong Peng op ypong001@...:

          > thanks. I look at Charles Duroiselle's A Practical Grammar of the
          > Pali Language and got this from Chapter 10:
          >
          > root: bhuu, to be
          > (492) causative: bhaave, bhaavaya
          > (496) causative base/stem: bhaaveti, to cultivate, practise
          > (441) present participle: bhaaventa, bhaavaya.m, bhaavayanta,
          > bhaavayamaana.
          >
          > Let us choose bhaavaya.m, cultivating, practising.
          >
          > "te bhaavayato"
          >
          > te = dative of tumha, for you
          >
          > then, 'bhaavayato' is 'bhaavaya.m' declined to 'te' which is dative,
          > singular, masculine(?).
          N:Now Jim just suggested it to be genitive absolute: when you, Rahula, are
          cultivating (applying yourself to) the development that is like the earth...
          What do you think of it?
          Y: I take it that 'bhaavaya.m' is declined similarly to araha.m [see
          > Duroiselle Chpt.5 (167)]
          > Araha.m > Dat. Sing. > Arahato
          > Thus,
          > bhaavaya.m > Dat. Sing. > bhaavayato
          N: I am afraid to say so, because then we are comparing a noun with a verb
          form, the present participle.
          Nina.
          >
        • nina van gorkom
          Dear Yong Peng, Suggestions below seem good, it is a matter of choice now about deciding what is best in English. Nina.
          Message 4 of 30 , May 4, 2003
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            Dear Yong Peng,
            Suggestions below seem good, it is a matter of choice now about deciding
            what is best in English.
            Nina.
            op 04-05-2003 00:18 schreef Ong Yong Peng op ypong001@...:


            > Technically, if 'te' is genitive, and since 'bhaavayato' present
            > participle, then "te bhaavayato" is <quote Warder page 58> a
            > construction called the "genitive absolute" consists of a noun
            > followed by a participle, both inflected in the genitive <end quote>.
            >
            > In that case, "te bhaavayato" becomes "as/while you are
            > cultivating/developing/practising".
            >
            > Here is the abstract from the suttas provided by Dimitry at the
            > beginning of the project:
            >
            > "Pathaviisama.m, Raahula, bhaavana.m bhaavehi. Pathaviisama~nhi te,
            > Raahula, bhaavana.m bhaavayato uppannaa manaapaamanaapaa phassaa
            > citta.m na pariyaadaaya .thassanti.
            >
            > (a) Ven. Anzan Hoshin sensei and Tory Cox
            > Practise like the earth, Rahula. If you become like the earth then
            > the sensations which arise, whether pleasant or unpleasant, do not
            > take hold of the mind, nor do they establish themselves.
            >
            > (b)
            > Rahula, develop a mind similar to earth, when you develop a mind
            > similar to earth arisen contacts of like and dislike do not take hold
            > of your mind and stay.
            >
            > I have tried to redo it again:
            >
            > According to PED:
            > bhaavanna=producing, dwelling on something, putting one's thoughts
            > to, application, developing by means of thought or meditation,
            > cultivation by mind, culture.
            >
            > "Rahula, cultivate the mental quality that is like the earth. Rahula,
            > while you are cultivating the mental quality that is like the earth,
            > pleasant and unpleasant impressions that have arisen will not
            > overwhelm the mind and persist.
            >
            >
          • Ong Yong Peng
            Dear Nina and friends, sorry for any confusion. Perhaps I should say that bhaavaya.m takes the declension of adjectives ending in -vantu and -mantu? Kindly
            Message 5 of 30 , May 5, 2003
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              Dear Nina and friends,

              sorry for any confusion. Perhaps I should say that bhaavaya.m takes
              the declension of adjectives ending in -vantu and -mantu? Kindly
              enlighten me. Thanks.

              metta,
              Yong Peng

              --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote:
              > "te bhaavayato"
              >
              > te = dative of tumha, for you
              >
              > then, 'bhaavayato' is 'bhaavaya.m' declined to 'te' which is
              dative, singular, masculine(?).
              > > Y: I take it that 'bhaavaya.m' is declined similarly to araha.m
              [see Duroiselle Chpt.5 (167)]
              Araha.m > Dat. Sing. > Arahato
              Thus,
              bhaavaya.m > Dat. Sing. > bhaavayato
              > N: I am afraid to say so, because then we are comparing a noun
              with a verb form, the present participle.
            • Jim Anderson
              Dear Nina, ... Warder, ... 423 ... development ... agent. the ... Offlist, Teng Kee has raised an interesting point about the correct usage of the genitive
              Message 6 of 30 , May 5, 2003
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                Dear Nina,

                > Dear Jim and all,
                > op 03-05-2003 17:48 schreef Jim Anderson op jimanderson_on@...:
                > Could
                > > this not be a genitive absolute construction as described by
                Warder,
                > > p. 58 or Duroiselle, no. 603?
                > >
                > > pathaviisama~nhi te, raahula, bhaavana.m bhaavayato, . . . -- M I
                423
                > >
                > > For while (or when, as) you, Rahula, are developing the
                development
                > > that is like the earth, . . .
                > N: I think it is likely, because the sentence has more than one
                agent. the
                > other being: the impressions, etc. phassaa.

                Offlist, Teng Kee has raised an interesting point about the correct
                usage of the genitive absolute in the sense of disregard (anaadara)
                "in spite of, despite" according to the native grammars. Warder also
                discusses this sense but he and others seem to think that the gen.
                abs. can be used a little more liberally. I'm not sure. For what it's
                worth, the following is my response to Teng Kee:

                << Warder does mention this usage (anaadaramhi ca. -- Sadd ยง633) on
                p.58 as follows:

                << Often the genitive absolute has the special sense of disregarding:
                "despite (the noun doing the participle)." >>

                I think that strictly speaking in accordance with the native grammars
                this may be the only usage allowed which can also be used in the
                locative absolute. It seems possible to translate the sutta passage in
                the 'anaadara' sense which would go like:

                For, Rahula, in spite of you developing the development that is like
                the earth; without (you) having fully grasped (your) mind, the
                impressions that arise, agreeable or disagreeable, will persist.

                But this may not fit in too well in the context of the rest of the
                paragraph. >>

                > J: I'm not too clear on a number of parts in the sentence. I find
                > > 'develeping the development' awkward in English. Also, the
                placement
                > > of the 'na' before 'pariyaadaaya' instead of before '.thassanti'
                seems
                > > unusual to me.
                > N: I think na is for both. I compared the Co:
                > <citta.m na pariyaadaaya .thassantiiti ete phassaa uppajjitvaa
                > As to the words, they do not overcome the mind and persist, this
                means,
                > after these impressions have arisen,
                > tava citta.m antomu.t.thigata.m karonto viya
                > while the mind just makes as it were a clenched fist >
                > I compared with the Thai, and avoiding the awkward: having not
                overcome..
                > they do not persist, the Thai uses:they do not overcome the mind,
                but here
                > is not translated: and do not persist, .thassanti.
                > And there is also this in the Co:
                > pariyaadaaya gahetvaa .thaatu.m na sakkhissanti,

                I'm inclined to think that the 'na' in the sutta passage is intended
                for 'pariyaadaaya' only. I think if both were negated it would have
                been written like 'apariyaadaaya na .thassanti'. Note that in the cty.
                there is no 'na' preceding 'pariyaadaaya' as is the case in the sutta.
                I have checked three versions of the same cty. passage and all are the
                same in this respect. I'm not sure why this is so. One possibility
                could be that the cty. is explaining in opposite terms for what would
                occur if the citta were fully grasped.

                > here we have gahetvaa and then at end: na sakkhissanti. I take the
                > gahetvaa: after (the mind) has seized them... ??they do not remain.
                In the
                > subco: this adds :pariggahetvaa, as a gloss to gahetvaa:
                > <gahetvaati kusalappavattiyaa okaasadaanavasena pariggahetvaa.
                > As to the words, having taken hold of, because of the opportunity
                given for
                > a skilful life, after he has comprehended. >
                > This is difficult for me. What is the gahetvaa, who is doing it.

                It is difficult for me too. I'm not yet sure who or what is grasping
                the mind. It seems that it would either have to be the impressions or
                Rahula. It's certainly not at all clear.

                > Earlier in the Co. it was stated; Rahula had to develop vipassana
                pa~n~naa.
                > The meaning is just as in the Elephant's Footprint Discourse, where
                the
                > monk, after he has learnt the elements, is not disturbed by painful
                bodily
                > impressions nor by harsh words.
                > By the way if you have time, I stared so long on tava (in the Co.),
                va is:
                > just, only, indeed, but the ta: ta.m? Because indeed, or because
                just?

                'tava' (also 'tuyha.m') like 'te' is the genitive (or dative) singular
                of 'tva.m', so 'tava citta.m' = your mind or thought.

                Best wishes,

                Jim
              • nina van gorkom
                Dear Yong Peng, ... Perhaps I should say that bhaavaya.m takes ... N: I think as gaccha.m or gacchanto, Warder Ch 21, and also: Ch 13: as causative: kaarento,
                Message 7 of 30 , May 6, 2003
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                  Dear Yong Peng,
                  op 05-05-2003 12:21 schreef Ong Yong Peng op ypong001@...:
                  >
                  Perhaps I should say that bhaavaya.m takes
                  > the declension of adjectives ending in -vantu and -mantu? Kindly
                  > enlighten me.
                  N: I think as gaccha.m or gacchanto, Warder Ch 21,
                  and also: Ch 13: as causative: kaarento, kaarayato.
                  -vantu and -mantu seems a different matter.
                  Nina.
                • nina van gorkom
                  Dear Jim, Thank you very much. It is well worth considering. Thank you for the tava, from tvam By the way, it is helpful if Teng Kee would let us share his
                  Message 8 of 30 , May 6, 2003
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                    Dear Jim,
                    Thank you very much. It is well worth considering.
                    Thank you for the tava, from tvam
                    By the way, it is helpful if Teng Kee would let us share his observations on
                    the list, I would like to follow such discussions, interesting and useful
                    for all of us here.
                    op 06-05-2003 01:54 schreef Jim Anderson op jimanderson_on@...:
                    >
                    > << Often the genitive absolute has the special sense of disregarding:
                    > "despite (the noun doing the participle)." >>
                    >
                    > I think that strictly speaking in accordance with the native grammars
                    > this may be the only usage allowed which can also be used in the
                    > locative absolute. It seems possible to translate the sutta passage in
                    > the 'anaadara' sense which would go like:
                    >
                    > For, Rahula, in spite of you developing the development that is like
                    > the earth; without (you) having fully grasped (your) mind, the
                    > impressions that arise, agreeable or disagreeable, will persist.
                    >
                    > But this may not fit in too well in the context of the rest of the
                    > paragraph. >>
                    N: alternatives:this is the old one: A:
                    pathaviisama~nhi te, raahula, bhaavana.m bhaavayato

                    For when you apply yourself to the mental development that is like the
                    earth, Rahula,

                    uppannaa manaapaamanaapaa phassaa citta.m na pariyaadaaya .thassanti.

                    agreeable and disagreeable impressions that have arisen, will not overwhelm
                    the mind and persist.
                    The alternative:B:
                    I looked again at pariyaadaaya: pariyaadati: put an end to, master,
                    destroy.
                    PED: SIII, 155: it is said of raaga.m. To master attachment.

                    For while you apply yourself to the mental development that is like the
                    earth, Rahula, and you do not control the mind, agreeable and disagreeable
                    impressions that have arisen will stay.

                    Now comparing with Co and Subco:
                    Co: citta.m na pariyaadaaya .thassantiiti ete phassaa uppajjitvaa
                    With reference to the words, when you do not control your mind: this means,
                    after these impressions have arisen,

                    tava citta.m antomu.t.thigata.m karonto viya
                    and your mind makes just as it were a clenched fist,

                    pariyaadaaya gahetvaa .thaatu.m na sakkhissanti,
                    and it has controlled and mastered them, they cannot stay.
                    The Subco:
                    gahetvaati kusalappavattiyaa okaasadaanavasena pariggahetvaa.

                    As to the words, after it (the mind) has taken hold of them (mastered them),
                    afterit has comprehended them, because of the opportunity that was given for
                    a skilful course of action.
                    Conclusion: pariyaadaaya, gahetvaa and pariggahetvaa: they seem more or less
                    synonyms for mind control. The citta is doing this (of course not without
                    the right condiitons: it is by vipassana). If this does not happen, those
                    impressions remain.
                    This is as far as I have got. With B the Co and subco seems to agree more.
                    We shall have to make a choice between alternatives A and B, or is there a
                    C?
                    Nina.
                    >
                  • Ong Yong Peng
                    Dear Nina and friends, thanks, Nina. As my exams are just a few weeks away, perhaps my brain is not working well on Pali. May I suggest that we take a break
                    Message 9 of 30 , May 6, 2003
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                      Dear Nina and friends,

                      thanks, Nina. As my exams are just a few weeks away, perhaps my brain
                      is not working well on Pali. May I suggest that we take a break for
                      now, and resume after 24 June. My exams starts on 10 June.

                      metta,
                      Yong Peng

                      --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote:
                      > Perhaps I should say that bhaavaya.m takes
                      > > the declension of adjectives ending in -vantu and -mantu? Kindly
                      > > enlighten me.
                      > N: I think as gaccha.m or gacchanto, Warder Ch 21,
                      > and also: Ch 13: as causative: kaarento, kaarayato.
                      > -vantu and -mantu seems a different matter.
                    • Jim Anderson
                      Dear Nina, Thanks for all the hard work you ve put into this so far. I think it s going to be rather difficult to come to a clear understanding of this
                      Message 10 of 30 , May 6, 2003
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                        Dear Nina,

                        Thanks for all the hard work you've put into this so far. I think it's
                        going to be rather difficult to come to a clear understanding of this
                        sentence any time soon. It just seems that the more we delve into it,
                        the more confusing and unclear it becomes, at least for me. Often it
                        becomes necessary to undertake a lot of research (in tens of hours) to
                        get just a slightly better understanding of a word or a phrase here
                        and there. When I came forward to offer some help in identifying
                        'bhaavayato' as a pres. participle, it wasn't my intention to get too
                        involved as I have been rather busy lately with other projects of my
                        own which I would like to get back to soon.

                        I thought that in order to get a better understanding of "citta.m na
                        pariyaadaaya .thassanti" it might be wise to study this or other
                        similar phrases in the context of other suttas along with their
                        commentaries. I did a search on the CSCD for the word 'pariyaadaaya'
                        which frequently goes with 'citta.m' and the results were that it
                        occurs in the Suttantapi.taka 189 times and in the Majjhimanikaaya 62
                        times. There could be more in the peyyala passages. A good place to
                        start might be at M I 91 or 239-240 which I think will shed some more
                        light. It appears that if one goes by the passage at M I 91 the
                        'impressions' is the agent of 'pariyaadaaya' with 'citta.m' as the
                        patient. Also in looking at 'tassa' in the M I 239f passage without
                        any accompanying pres. part. there is the suggestion that the genitive
                        absolute may not be a correct interpretation of 'te . . . bhaavayato'
                        in our sentence.

                        Best wishes,

                        Jim
                      • nina van gorkom
                        Dear Yong Peng, I sympathize with your exams and wish you every success. Of course these need your full attention. I hope you will tell us the outcome.
                        Message 11 of 30 , May 7, 2003
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                          Dear Yong Peng,
                          I sympathize with your exams and wish you every success. Of course these
                          need your full attention. I hope you will tell us the outcome.
                          Meanwhile, I shall keep on with the sutta text and commentaries. I shall
                          come back June 25 on these texts, if I may. Then we can be at it again full
                          force. Although you will have to prepare again for exams in October,
                          November.
                          These difficult sentences are repeated all the time in the sutta, and thus
                          we have to arrive at a conclusion somehow.
                          I shall be away (conditions permitting) May 10 until May 24.
                          All the best,
                          Nina.
                          op 07-05-2003 02:34 schreef Ong Yong Peng op ypong001@...:
                          May I suggest that we take a break for
                          > now, and resume after 24 June. My exams starts on 10 June.
                        • nina van gorkom
                          Dear Jim, ... think will shed some more ... N: Thank you for your suggestions, I shall study these passages, I had not thought of this before, and I have the
                          Message 12 of 30 , May 7, 2003
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                            Dear Jim,
                            op 07-05-2003 04:29 schreef Jim Anderson op jimanderson_on@...:
                            > I thought that in order to get a better understanding of "citta.m na
                            > pariyaadaaya .thassanti" it might be wise to study this or other
                            > similar phrases in the context of other suttas along with their
                            > commentaries.A good place to start might be at M I 91 or 239-240 which I
                            think will shed some more
                            > light. It appears that if one goes by the passage at M I 91 the
                            > 'impressions' is the agent of 'pariyaadaaya' with 'citta.m' as the
                            > patient. Also in looking at 'tassa' in the M I 239f passage without
                            > any accompanying pres. part. there is the suggestion that the genitive
                            > absolute may not be a correct interpretation of 'te . . . bhaavayato'
                            > in our sentence.
                            N: Thank you for your suggestions, I shall study these passages, I had not
                            thought of this before, and I have the relevant Pali texts. However, I do
                            not have the means at my disposal as you have. I like the types of
                            discussions on texts we just had, it is not confusing, just considering
                            alternatives. I understand that it is time consuming for you, since you have
                            other projects. Meanwhile, I cannot let go of texts, I will not give up. I
                            am glad you have given some directions. It is great if you can come in
                            sometimes, always inspiring.
                            I do not expect that I can make a translation without mistakes, but I try
                            the best I can. If I would be afraid, I would never make any translation and
                            this goes also for my Commentary translations.
                            Thank you very much for all the efforts you have put in,
                            Nina.
                          • Ong Yong Peng
                            Dear Nina and friends, thanks very much. Thanks for your advise for Word-by-Word too. Have a happy holiday. metta, Yong Peng.
                            Message 13 of 30 , May 8, 2003
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                              Dear Nina and friends,

                              thanks very much. Thanks for your advise for Word-by-Word too. Have
                              a happy holiday.

                              metta,
                              Yong Peng.
                            • Ong Yong Peng
                              Dear Nina and friends, here is the next paragraph from Maharahulovada Sutta. It follows very much what Nina has set out in the last paragraph. Please correct
                              Message 14 of 30 , Jul 13, 2003
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                                Dear Nina and friends,

                                here is the next paragraph from Maharahulovada Sutta. It follows very
                                much what Nina has set out in the last paragraph. Please correct me
                                if I am wrong.

                                "Aaposama.m, Raahula, bhaavana.m bhaavehi.
                                water-like / Rahula / mental development / cultivate
                                "Rahula, cultivate the mental development that is like the water.

                                aaposama (adj.) water-like.

                                Aaposama~nhi te, Raahula, bhaavana.m bhaavayato
                                water-like / for you / Rahula / mental development / is cultivating
                                Rahula, for you who are cultivating the mental development that is
                                like the water,

                                uppannaa manaapa-amanaapaa phassaa citta.m na pariyaadaaya .thassanti.
                                arisen / pleasant and unpleasant / impressions / mind / not / having
                                overcome / will persist
                                pleasant and unpleasant impressions that have arisen will not
                                persistently overwhelm the mind.

                                Seyyathaapi, Raahula, aapasmi.m sucimpi dhovanti, asucimpi dhovanti,
                                just as / Rahula / in water / also clean thing / (they) wash / also
                                dirty thing / wash
                                Rahula, just as (people) wash in the water what is clean and what is
                                dirty

                                dhovati (v.) washes.

                                guuthagatampi dhovanti, muttagatampi dhovanti, khe.lagatampi
                                dhovanti, pubbagatampi dhovanti, lohitagatampi dhovanti,
                                also faeces / wash / also urine / wash / also spittle / wash / also
                                pus / wash / also blood / wash
                                -- faeces, urine, spittle, pus and blood,

                                na ca tena aapo a.t.tiiyati vaa haraayati vaa jigucchati vaa;
                                not / and yet / because of it / water / is afflicted / or / is
                                vexed / or / is disgusted / or
                                and yet the water is not afflicted, vexed or disgusted because of it.

                                evameva kho tva.m, Raahula, aaposama.m bhaavana.m bhaavehi.
                                likewise / indeed / you / Rahula / water-like / mental development /
                                cultivate
                                Likewise, Rahula, you should cultivate the mental development that is
                                like the water.

                                Aaposama~nhi te, Raahula, bhaavana.m bhaavayato uppannaa manaapa-
                                amanaapaa phassaa citta.m na pariyaadaaya .thassanti.
                                water-like / for you / Rahula / mental development / is cultivating /
                                arisen / pleasant and unpleasant / impressions / mind / not / having
                                overcome / will persist
                                Rahula, for you who are cultivating the mental development that is
                                like the water, pleasant and unpleasant impressions that have arisen
                                will not persistently overwhelm the mind.


                                metta,
                                Yong Peng
                              • nina van gorkom
                                Dear Yong Peng, I am hesitant about the use of the article before: water. Piya gave some tips about the use of the article. Is this better: like water, namely,
                                Message 15 of 30 , Jul 14, 2003
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                                  Dear Yong Peng,
                                  I am hesitant about the use of the article before: water. Piya gave some
                                  tips about the use of the article. Is this better: like water, namely, water
                                  in general? I am not sure. We also had: the earth. Is earth better?
                                  PTS used: the earth, but water, fire and wind without articles. A question
                                  of feeling how it sounds?
                                  Nina.

                                  op 13-07-2003 14:39 schreef Ong Yong Peng op ypong001@...:

                                  > "Aaposama.m, Raahula, bhaavana.m bhaavehi.
                                  > water-like / Rahula / mental development / cultivate
                                  > "Rahula, cultivate the mental development that is like the water.
                                • Ong Yong Peng
                                  Dear Nina and friends, thanks. I agree it is better not to have the article before water , since we are referring to a general body of water. Grammatically,
                                  Message 16 of 30 , Jul 15, 2003
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                                    Dear Nina and friends,

                                    thanks. I agree it is better not to have the article before 'water',
                                    since we are referring to a general body of water. Grammatically, it
                                    is right, and I think it sounds great. :-)

                                    metta,
                                    Yong Peng

                                    --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote:
                                    I am hesitant about the use of the article before: water. Piya gave
                                    some tips about the use of the article. Is this better: like water,
                                    namely, water in general? I am not sure. We also had: the earth. Is
                                    earth better?
                                    PTS used: the earth, but water, fire and wind without articles. A
                                    question of feeling how it sounds?
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