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Re: [Pali] Mahaaraahulovaadasutta, bhaavayato:

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  • Jim Anderson
    Dear Nina and Yong Peng, You ve both gotten away ahead of me on this thread. Although I consider bhaavayato to be a present participle, I pointed this out at
    Message 1 of 30 , May 3, 2003
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      Dear Nina and Yong Peng,

      You've both gotten away ahead of me on this thread. Although I
      consider "bhaavayato" to be a present participle, I pointed this out
      at a time when I still had yet to consider it carefully in the context
      of the passage. I have since done some of that and I agree that "te"
      belongs with "bhaavayato" and that both are in the same case and
      number. However, I question that they are in the dative case. Could
      this not be a genitive absolute construction as described by Warder,
      p. 58 or Duroiselle, no. 603?

      pathaviisama~nhi te, raahula, bhaavana.m bhaavayato, . . . -- M I 423

      For while (or when, as) you, Rahula, are developing the development
      that is like the earth, . . .

      I'm not too clear on a number of parts in the sentence. I find
      'develeping the development' awkward in English. Also, the placement
      of the 'na' before 'pariyaadaaya' instead of before '.thassanti' seems
      unusual to me.

      Best wishes,

      Jim

      --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote:
      > N: pathaviisama~nhi te, raahula, bhaavana.m bhaavayato
      > >pathaviisama~nhi te, raahula, bhaavana.m bhaavayato
      > For you (te, dative) , Rahula, who is developing (bhaavayato, from
      bhaveti, present participle and also dative), the development
      (bhaavana.m) that is like the earth (pathaviisama ~nhi), agreeable
      and disagreeable, etc.
      >
    • Ong Yong Peng
      Dear Nina, Jim and friends, Jim, you are probably right. If only others can also throw a light into this. Technically, if te is genitive, and since
      Message 2 of 30 , May 3, 2003
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        Dear Nina, Jim and friends,

        Jim, you are probably right. If only others can also throw a light
        into this.

        Technically, if 'te' is genitive, and since 'bhaavayato' present
        participle, then "te bhaavayato" is <quote Warder page 58> a
        construction called the "genitive absolute" consists of a noun
        followed by a participle, both inflected in the genitive <end quote>.

        In that case, "te bhaavayato" becomes "as/while you are
        cultivating/developing/practising".

        Here is the abstract from the suttas provided by Dimitry at the
        beginning of the project:

        "Pathaviisama.m, Raahula, bhaavana.m bhaavehi. Pathaviisama~nhi te,
        Raahula, bhaavana.m bhaavayato uppannaa manaapaamanaapaa phassaa
        citta.m na pariyaadaaya .thassanti.

        (a) Ven. Anzan Hoshin sensei and Tory Cox
        Practise like the earth, Rahula. If you become like the earth then
        the sensations which arise, whether pleasant or unpleasant, do not
        take hold of the mind, nor do they establish themselves.

        (b)
        Rahula, develop a mind similar to earth, when you develop a mind
        similar to earth arisen contacts of like and dislike do not take hold
        of your mind and stay.

        I have tried to redo it again:

        According to PED:
        bhaavanna=producing, dwelling on something, putting one's thoughts
        to, application, developing by means of thought or meditation,
        cultivation by mind, culture.

        "Rahula, cultivate the mental quality that is like the earth. Rahula,
        while you are cultivating the mental quality that is like the earth,
        pleasant and unpleasant impressions that have arisen will not
        overwhelm the mind and persist.

        Please correct me if I am wrong.


        metta,
        Yong Peng

        --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Jim Anderson wrote:
        You've both gotten away ahead of me on this thread. Although I
        consider "bhaavayato" to be a present participle, I pointed this out
        at a time when I still had yet to consider it carefully in the
        context of the passage. I have since done some of that and I agree
        that "te" belongs with "bhaavayato" and that both are in the same
        case and number. However, I question that they are in the dative
        case. Could this not be a genitive absolute construction as described
        by Warder, p. 58 or Duroiselle, no. 603?
        >
        pathaviisama~nhi te, raahula, bhaavana.m bhaavayato, . . . -- M I 423
        >
        For while (or when, as) you, Rahula, are developing the development
        that is like the earth, . . .
        >
        I'm not too clear on a number of parts in the sentence. I
        find 'develeping the development' awkward in English. Also, the
        placement of the 'na' before 'pariyaadaaya' instead of
        before '.thassanti' seems unusual to me.
        >
        > --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote:
        > > N: pathaviisama~nhi te, raahula, bhaavana.m bhaavayato
        > > >pathaviisama~nhi te, raahula, bhaavana.m bhaavayato
        > > For you (te, dative) , Rahula, who is developing (bhaavayato, from
        > bhaveti, present participle and also dative), the development
        > (bhaavana.m) that is like the earth (pathaviisama ~nhi), agreeable
        > and disagreeable, etc.
      • Ong Yong Peng
        Dear Nina, Jim and friends, allow me to add that, I have taken Pathaviisama~nhi te bhaavana.m bhaavayato te pathaviisama~nhi bhaavana.m bhaavayato te
        Message 3 of 30 , May 3, 2003
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          Dear Nina, Jim and friends,

          allow me to add that, I have taken "Pathaviisama~nhi te bhaavana.m
          bhaavayato" >> "te pathaviisama~nhi bhaavana.m bhaavayato"

          te bhaavayato = while/as you are developing
          pathaviisama~nhi bhaavana.m = development of the mind to be like the
          earth??? If the enclitic 'hi' for 'pathaviisama~nhi' can be fully
          understood, we could render a better sentence in English.

          Please correct me if I am wrong.

          metta,
          Yong Peng

          --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Ong Yong Peng wrote:
          "Pathaviisama.m, Raahula, bhaavana.m bhaavehi. Pathaviisama~nhi te,
          Raahula, bhaavana.m bhaavayato uppannaa manaapaamanaapaa phassaa
          citta.m na pariyaadaaya .thassanti.
          >
          I have tried to redo it again:
          >
          According to PED:
          bhaavanna=producing, dwelling on something, putting one's thoughts
          to, application, developing by means of thought or meditation,
          cultivation by mind, culture.
          >
          "Rahula, cultivate the mental quality that is like the earth. Rahula,
          while you are cultivating the mental quality that is like the earth,
          pleasant and unpleasant impressions that have arisen will not
          overwhelm the mind and persist.
        • nina van gorkom
          Dear Jim and all, op 03-05-2003 17:48 schreef Jim Anderson op jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca: Could ... N: I think it is likely, because the sentence has more than
          Message 4 of 30 , May 4, 2003
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            Dear Jim and all,
            op 03-05-2003 17:48 schreef Jim Anderson op jimanderson_on@...:
            Could
            > this not be a genitive absolute construction as described by Warder,
            > p. 58 or Duroiselle, no. 603?
            >
            > pathaviisama~nhi te, raahula, bhaavana.m bhaavayato, . . . -- M I 423
            >
            > For while (or when, as) you, Rahula, are developing the development
            > that is like the earth, . . .
            N: I think it is likely, because the sentence has more than one agent. the
            other being: the impressions, etc. phassaa.
            J: I'm not too clear on a number of parts in the sentence. I find
            > 'develeping the development' awkward in English. Also, the placement
            > of the 'na' before 'pariyaadaaya' instead of before '.thassanti' seems
            > unusual to me.
            N: I think na is for both. I compared the Co:
            <citta.m na pariyaadaaya .thassantiiti ete phassaa uppajjitvaa
            As to the words, they do not overcome the mind and persist, this means,
            after these impressions have arisen,
            tava citta.m antomu.t.thigata.m karonto viya
            while the mind just makes as it were a clenched fist >
            I compared with the Thai, and avoiding the awkward: having not overcome..
            they do not persist, the Thai uses:they do not overcome the mind, but here
            is not translated: and do not persist, .thassanti.
            And there is also this in the Co:
            pariyaadaaya gahetvaa .thaatu.m na sakkhissanti,
            here we have gahetvaa and then at end: na sakkhissanti. I take the
            gahetvaa: after (the mind) has seized them... ??they do not remain. In the
            subco: this adds :pariggahetvaa, as a gloss to gahetvaa:
            <gahetvaati kusalappavattiyaa okaasadaanavasena pariggahetvaa.
            As to the words, having taken hold of, because of the opportunity given for
            a skilful life, after he has comprehended. >
            This is difficult for me. What is the gahetvaa, who is doing it.
            Earlier in the Co. it was stated; Rahula had to develop vipassana pa~n~naa.
            The meaning is just as in the Elephant's Footprint Discourse, where the
            monk, after he has learnt the elements, is not disturbed by painful bodily
            impressions nor by harsh words.
            By the way if you have time, I stared so long on tava (in the Co.), va is:
            just, only, indeed, but the ta: ta.m? Because indeed, or because just?
            Thank you,
            Nina.
          • nina van gorkom
            Dear Yong Peng, ... N:Now Jim just suggested it to be genitive absolute: when you, Rahula, are cultivating (applying yourself to) the development that is like
            Message 5 of 30 , May 4, 2003
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              Dear Yong Peng,
              op 03-05-2003 02:02 schreef Ong Yong Peng op ypong001@...:

              > thanks. I look at Charles Duroiselle's A Practical Grammar of the
              > Pali Language and got this from Chapter 10:
              >
              > root: bhuu, to be
              > (492) causative: bhaave, bhaavaya
              > (496) causative base/stem: bhaaveti, to cultivate, practise
              > (441) present participle: bhaaventa, bhaavaya.m, bhaavayanta,
              > bhaavayamaana.
              >
              > Let us choose bhaavaya.m, cultivating, practising.
              >
              > "te bhaavayato"
              >
              > te = dative of tumha, for you
              >
              > then, 'bhaavayato' is 'bhaavaya.m' declined to 'te' which is dative,
              > singular, masculine(?).
              N:Now Jim just suggested it to be genitive absolute: when you, Rahula, are
              cultivating (applying yourself to) the development that is like the earth...
              What do you think of it?
              Y: I take it that 'bhaavaya.m' is declined similarly to araha.m [see
              > Duroiselle Chpt.5 (167)]
              > Araha.m > Dat. Sing. > Arahato
              > Thus,
              > bhaavaya.m > Dat. Sing. > bhaavayato
              N: I am afraid to say so, because then we are comparing a noun with a verb
              form, the present participle.
              Nina.
              >
            • nina van gorkom
              Dear Yong Peng, Suggestions below seem good, it is a matter of choice now about deciding what is best in English. Nina.
              Message 6 of 30 , May 4, 2003
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                Dear Yong Peng,
                Suggestions below seem good, it is a matter of choice now about deciding
                what is best in English.
                Nina.
                op 04-05-2003 00:18 schreef Ong Yong Peng op ypong001@...:


                > Technically, if 'te' is genitive, and since 'bhaavayato' present
                > participle, then "te bhaavayato" is <quote Warder page 58> a
                > construction called the "genitive absolute" consists of a noun
                > followed by a participle, both inflected in the genitive <end quote>.
                >
                > In that case, "te bhaavayato" becomes "as/while you are
                > cultivating/developing/practising".
                >
                > Here is the abstract from the suttas provided by Dimitry at the
                > beginning of the project:
                >
                > "Pathaviisama.m, Raahula, bhaavana.m bhaavehi. Pathaviisama~nhi te,
                > Raahula, bhaavana.m bhaavayato uppannaa manaapaamanaapaa phassaa
                > citta.m na pariyaadaaya .thassanti.
                >
                > (a) Ven. Anzan Hoshin sensei and Tory Cox
                > Practise like the earth, Rahula. If you become like the earth then
                > the sensations which arise, whether pleasant or unpleasant, do not
                > take hold of the mind, nor do they establish themselves.
                >
                > (b)
                > Rahula, develop a mind similar to earth, when you develop a mind
                > similar to earth arisen contacts of like and dislike do not take hold
                > of your mind and stay.
                >
                > I have tried to redo it again:
                >
                > According to PED:
                > bhaavanna=producing, dwelling on something, putting one's thoughts
                > to, application, developing by means of thought or meditation,
                > cultivation by mind, culture.
                >
                > "Rahula, cultivate the mental quality that is like the earth. Rahula,
                > while you are cultivating the mental quality that is like the earth,
                > pleasant and unpleasant impressions that have arisen will not
                > overwhelm the mind and persist.
                >
                >
              • Ong Yong Peng
                Dear Nina and friends, sorry for any confusion. Perhaps I should say that bhaavaya.m takes the declension of adjectives ending in -vantu and -mantu? Kindly
                Message 7 of 30 , May 5, 2003
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                  Dear Nina and friends,

                  sorry for any confusion. Perhaps I should say that bhaavaya.m takes
                  the declension of adjectives ending in -vantu and -mantu? Kindly
                  enlighten me. Thanks.

                  metta,
                  Yong Peng

                  --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote:
                  > "te bhaavayato"
                  >
                  > te = dative of tumha, for you
                  >
                  > then, 'bhaavayato' is 'bhaavaya.m' declined to 'te' which is
                  dative, singular, masculine(?).
                  > > Y: I take it that 'bhaavaya.m' is declined similarly to araha.m
                  [see Duroiselle Chpt.5 (167)]
                  Araha.m > Dat. Sing. > Arahato
                  Thus,
                  bhaavaya.m > Dat. Sing. > bhaavayato
                  > N: I am afraid to say so, because then we are comparing a noun
                  with a verb form, the present participle.
                • Jim Anderson
                  Dear Nina, ... Warder, ... 423 ... development ... agent. the ... Offlist, Teng Kee has raised an interesting point about the correct usage of the genitive
                  Message 8 of 30 , May 5, 2003
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                    Dear Nina,

                    > Dear Jim and all,
                    > op 03-05-2003 17:48 schreef Jim Anderson op jimanderson_on@...:
                    > Could
                    > > this not be a genitive absolute construction as described by
                    Warder,
                    > > p. 58 or Duroiselle, no. 603?
                    > >
                    > > pathaviisama~nhi te, raahula, bhaavana.m bhaavayato, . . . -- M I
                    423
                    > >
                    > > For while (or when, as) you, Rahula, are developing the
                    development
                    > > that is like the earth, . . .
                    > N: I think it is likely, because the sentence has more than one
                    agent. the
                    > other being: the impressions, etc. phassaa.

                    Offlist, Teng Kee has raised an interesting point about the correct
                    usage of the genitive absolute in the sense of disregard (anaadara)
                    "in spite of, despite" according to the native grammars. Warder also
                    discusses this sense but he and others seem to think that the gen.
                    abs. can be used a little more liberally. I'm not sure. For what it's
                    worth, the following is my response to Teng Kee:

                    << Warder does mention this usage (anaadaramhi ca. -- Sadd ยง633) on
                    p.58 as follows:

                    << Often the genitive absolute has the special sense of disregarding:
                    "despite (the noun doing the participle)." >>

                    I think that strictly speaking in accordance with the native grammars
                    this may be the only usage allowed which can also be used in the
                    locative absolute. It seems possible to translate the sutta passage in
                    the 'anaadara' sense which would go like:

                    For, Rahula, in spite of you developing the development that is like
                    the earth; without (you) having fully grasped (your) mind, the
                    impressions that arise, agreeable or disagreeable, will persist.

                    But this may not fit in too well in the context of the rest of the
                    paragraph. >>

                    > J: I'm not too clear on a number of parts in the sentence. I find
                    > > 'develeping the development' awkward in English. Also, the
                    placement
                    > > of the 'na' before 'pariyaadaaya' instead of before '.thassanti'
                    seems
                    > > unusual to me.
                    > N: I think na is for both. I compared the Co:
                    > <citta.m na pariyaadaaya .thassantiiti ete phassaa uppajjitvaa
                    > As to the words, they do not overcome the mind and persist, this
                    means,
                    > after these impressions have arisen,
                    > tava citta.m antomu.t.thigata.m karonto viya
                    > while the mind just makes as it were a clenched fist >
                    > I compared with the Thai, and avoiding the awkward: having not
                    overcome..
                    > they do not persist, the Thai uses:they do not overcome the mind,
                    but here
                    > is not translated: and do not persist, .thassanti.
                    > And there is also this in the Co:
                    > pariyaadaaya gahetvaa .thaatu.m na sakkhissanti,

                    I'm inclined to think that the 'na' in the sutta passage is intended
                    for 'pariyaadaaya' only. I think if both were negated it would have
                    been written like 'apariyaadaaya na .thassanti'. Note that in the cty.
                    there is no 'na' preceding 'pariyaadaaya' as is the case in the sutta.
                    I have checked three versions of the same cty. passage and all are the
                    same in this respect. I'm not sure why this is so. One possibility
                    could be that the cty. is explaining in opposite terms for what would
                    occur if the citta were fully grasped.

                    > here we have gahetvaa and then at end: na sakkhissanti. I take the
                    > gahetvaa: after (the mind) has seized them... ??they do not remain.
                    In the
                    > subco: this adds :pariggahetvaa, as a gloss to gahetvaa:
                    > <gahetvaati kusalappavattiyaa okaasadaanavasena pariggahetvaa.
                    > As to the words, having taken hold of, because of the opportunity
                    given for
                    > a skilful life, after he has comprehended. >
                    > This is difficult for me. What is the gahetvaa, who is doing it.

                    It is difficult for me too. I'm not yet sure who or what is grasping
                    the mind. It seems that it would either have to be the impressions or
                    Rahula. It's certainly not at all clear.

                    > Earlier in the Co. it was stated; Rahula had to develop vipassana
                    pa~n~naa.
                    > The meaning is just as in the Elephant's Footprint Discourse, where
                    the
                    > monk, after he has learnt the elements, is not disturbed by painful
                    bodily
                    > impressions nor by harsh words.
                    > By the way if you have time, I stared so long on tava (in the Co.),
                    va is:
                    > just, only, indeed, but the ta: ta.m? Because indeed, or because
                    just?

                    'tava' (also 'tuyha.m') like 'te' is the genitive (or dative) singular
                    of 'tva.m', so 'tava citta.m' = your mind or thought.

                    Best wishes,

                    Jim
                  • nina van gorkom
                    Dear Yong Peng, ... Perhaps I should say that bhaavaya.m takes ... N: I think as gaccha.m or gacchanto, Warder Ch 21, and also: Ch 13: as causative: kaarento,
                    Message 9 of 30 , May 6, 2003
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                      Dear Yong Peng,
                      op 05-05-2003 12:21 schreef Ong Yong Peng op ypong001@...:
                      >
                      Perhaps I should say that bhaavaya.m takes
                      > the declension of adjectives ending in -vantu and -mantu? Kindly
                      > enlighten me.
                      N: I think as gaccha.m or gacchanto, Warder Ch 21,
                      and also: Ch 13: as causative: kaarento, kaarayato.
                      -vantu and -mantu seems a different matter.
                      Nina.
                    • nina van gorkom
                      Dear Jim, Thank you very much. It is well worth considering. Thank you for the tava, from tvam By the way, it is helpful if Teng Kee would let us share his
                      Message 10 of 30 , May 6, 2003
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                        Dear Jim,
                        Thank you very much. It is well worth considering.
                        Thank you for the tava, from tvam
                        By the way, it is helpful if Teng Kee would let us share his observations on
                        the list, I would like to follow such discussions, interesting and useful
                        for all of us here.
                        op 06-05-2003 01:54 schreef Jim Anderson op jimanderson_on@...:
                        >
                        > << Often the genitive absolute has the special sense of disregarding:
                        > "despite (the noun doing the participle)." >>
                        >
                        > I think that strictly speaking in accordance with the native grammars
                        > this may be the only usage allowed which can also be used in the
                        > locative absolute. It seems possible to translate the sutta passage in
                        > the 'anaadara' sense which would go like:
                        >
                        > For, Rahula, in spite of you developing the development that is like
                        > the earth; without (you) having fully grasped (your) mind, the
                        > impressions that arise, agreeable or disagreeable, will persist.
                        >
                        > But this may not fit in too well in the context of the rest of the
                        > paragraph. >>
                        N: alternatives:this is the old one: A:
                        pathaviisama~nhi te, raahula, bhaavana.m bhaavayato

                        For when you apply yourself to the mental development that is like the
                        earth, Rahula,

                        uppannaa manaapaamanaapaa phassaa citta.m na pariyaadaaya .thassanti.

                        agreeable and disagreeable impressions that have arisen, will not overwhelm
                        the mind and persist.
                        The alternative:B:
                        I looked again at pariyaadaaya: pariyaadati: put an end to, master,
                        destroy.
                        PED: SIII, 155: it is said of raaga.m. To master attachment.

                        For while you apply yourself to the mental development that is like the
                        earth, Rahula, and you do not control the mind, agreeable and disagreeable
                        impressions that have arisen will stay.

                        Now comparing with Co and Subco:
                        Co: citta.m na pariyaadaaya .thassantiiti ete phassaa uppajjitvaa
                        With reference to the words, when you do not control your mind: this means,
                        after these impressions have arisen,

                        tava citta.m antomu.t.thigata.m karonto viya
                        and your mind makes just as it were a clenched fist,

                        pariyaadaaya gahetvaa .thaatu.m na sakkhissanti,
                        and it has controlled and mastered them, they cannot stay.
                        The Subco:
                        gahetvaati kusalappavattiyaa okaasadaanavasena pariggahetvaa.

                        As to the words, after it (the mind) has taken hold of them (mastered them),
                        afterit has comprehended them, because of the opportunity that was given for
                        a skilful course of action.
                        Conclusion: pariyaadaaya, gahetvaa and pariggahetvaa: they seem more or less
                        synonyms for mind control. The citta is doing this (of course not without
                        the right condiitons: it is by vipassana). If this does not happen, those
                        impressions remain.
                        This is as far as I have got. With B the Co and subco seems to agree more.
                        We shall have to make a choice between alternatives A and B, or is there a
                        C?
                        Nina.
                        >
                      • Ong Yong Peng
                        Dear Nina and friends, thanks, Nina. As my exams are just a few weeks away, perhaps my brain is not working well on Pali. May I suggest that we take a break
                        Message 11 of 30 , May 6, 2003
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                          Dear Nina and friends,

                          thanks, Nina. As my exams are just a few weeks away, perhaps my brain
                          is not working well on Pali. May I suggest that we take a break for
                          now, and resume after 24 June. My exams starts on 10 June.

                          metta,
                          Yong Peng

                          --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote:
                          > Perhaps I should say that bhaavaya.m takes
                          > > the declension of adjectives ending in -vantu and -mantu? Kindly
                          > > enlighten me.
                          > N: I think as gaccha.m or gacchanto, Warder Ch 21,
                          > and also: Ch 13: as causative: kaarento, kaarayato.
                          > -vantu and -mantu seems a different matter.
                        • Jim Anderson
                          Dear Nina, Thanks for all the hard work you ve put into this so far. I think it s going to be rather difficult to come to a clear understanding of this
                          Message 12 of 30 , May 6, 2003
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                            Dear Nina,

                            Thanks for all the hard work you've put into this so far. I think it's
                            going to be rather difficult to come to a clear understanding of this
                            sentence any time soon. It just seems that the more we delve into it,
                            the more confusing and unclear it becomes, at least for me. Often it
                            becomes necessary to undertake a lot of research (in tens of hours) to
                            get just a slightly better understanding of a word or a phrase here
                            and there. When I came forward to offer some help in identifying
                            'bhaavayato' as a pres. participle, it wasn't my intention to get too
                            involved as I have been rather busy lately with other projects of my
                            own which I would like to get back to soon.

                            I thought that in order to get a better understanding of "citta.m na
                            pariyaadaaya .thassanti" it might be wise to study this or other
                            similar phrases in the context of other suttas along with their
                            commentaries. I did a search on the CSCD for the word 'pariyaadaaya'
                            which frequently goes with 'citta.m' and the results were that it
                            occurs in the Suttantapi.taka 189 times and in the Majjhimanikaaya 62
                            times. There could be more in the peyyala passages. A good place to
                            start might be at M I 91 or 239-240 which I think will shed some more
                            light. It appears that if one goes by the passage at M I 91 the
                            'impressions' is the agent of 'pariyaadaaya' with 'citta.m' as the
                            patient. Also in looking at 'tassa' in the M I 239f passage without
                            any accompanying pres. part. there is the suggestion that the genitive
                            absolute may not be a correct interpretation of 'te . . . bhaavayato'
                            in our sentence.

                            Best wishes,

                            Jim
                          • nina van gorkom
                            Dear Yong Peng, I sympathize with your exams and wish you every success. Of course these need your full attention. I hope you will tell us the outcome.
                            Message 13 of 30 , May 7, 2003
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                              Dear Yong Peng,
                              I sympathize with your exams and wish you every success. Of course these
                              need your full attention. I hope you will tell us the outcome.
                              Meanwhile, I shall keep on with the sutta text and commentaries. I shall
                              come back June 25 on these texts, if I may. Then we can be at it again full
                              force. Although you will have to prepare again for exams in October,
                              November.
                              These difficult sentences are repeated all the time in the sutta, and thus
                              we have to arrive at a conclusion somehow.
                              I shall be away (conditions permitting) May 10 until May 24.
                              All the best,
                              Nina.
                              op 07-05-2003 02:34 schreef Ong Yong Peng op ypong001@...:
                              May I suggest that we take a break for
                              > now, and resume after 24 June. My exams starts on 10 June.
                            • nina van gorkom
                              Dear Jim, ... think will shed some more ... N: Thank you for your suggestions, I shall study these passages, I had not thought of this before, and I have the
                              Message 14 of 30 , May 7, 2003
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                                Dear Jim,
                                op 07-05-2003 04:29 schreef Jim Anderson op jimanderson_on@...:
                                > I thought that in order to get a better understanding of "citta.m na
                                > pariyaadaaya .thassanti" it might be wise to study this or other
                                > similar phrases in the context of other suttas along with their
                                > commentaries.A good place to start might be at M I 91 or 239-240 which I
                                think will shed some more
                                > light. It appears that if one goes by the passage at M I 91 the
                                > 'impressions' is the agent of 'pariyaadaaya' with 'citta.m' as the
                                > patient. Also in looking at 'tassa' in the M I 239f passage without
                                > any accompanying pres. part. there is the suggestion that the genitive
                                > absolute may not be a correct interpretation of 'te . . . bhaavayato'
                                > in our sentence.
                                N: Thank you for your suggestions, I shall study these passages, I had not
                                thought of this before, and I have the relevant Pali texts. However, I do
                                not have the means at my disposal as you have. I like the types of
                                discussions on texts we just had, it is not confusing, just considering
                                alternatives. I understand that it is time consuming for you, since you have
                                other projects. Meanwhile, I cannot let go of texts, I will not give up. I
                                am glad you have given some directions. It is great if you can come in
                                sometimes, always inspiring.
                                I do not expect that I can make a translation without mistakes, but I try
                                the best I can. If I would be afraid, I would never make any translation and
                                this goes also for my Commentary translations.
                                Thank you very much for all the efforts you have put in,
                                Nina.
                              • Ong Yong Peng
                                Dear Nina and friends, thanks very much. Thanks for your advise for Word-by-Word too. Have a happy holiday. metta, Yong Peng.
                                Message 15 of 30 , May 8, 2003
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                                  Dear Nina and friends,

                                  thanks very much. Thanks for your advise for Word-by-Word too. Have
                                  a happy holiday.

                                  metta,
                                  Yong Peng.
                                • Ong Yong Peng
                                  Dear Nina and friends, here is the next paragraph from Maharahulovada Sutta. It follows very much what Nina has set out in the last paragraph. Please correct
                                  Message 16 of 30 , Jul 13 5:39 AM
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                                    Dear Nina and friends,

                                    here is the next paragraph from Maharahulovada Sutta. It follows very
                                    much what Nina has set out in the last paragraph. Please correct me
                                    if I am wrong.

                                    "Aaposama.m, Raahula, bhaavana.m bhaavehi.
                                    water-like / Rahula / mental development / cultivate
                                    "Rahula, cultivate the mental development that is like the water.

                                    aaposama (adj.) water-like.

                                    Aaposama~nhi te, Raahula, bhaavana.m bhaavayato
                                    water-like / for you / Rahula / mental development / is cultivating
                                    Rahula, for you who are cultivating the mental development that is
                                    like the water,

                                    uppannaa manaapa-amanaapaa phassaa citta.m na pariyaadaaya .thassanti.
                                    arisen / pleasant and unpleasant / impressions / mind / not / having
                                    overcome / will persist
                                    pleasant and unpleasant impressions that have arisen will not
                                    persistently overwhelm the mind.

                                    Seyyathaapi, Raahula, aapasmi.m sucimpi dhovanti, asucimpi dhovanti,
                                    just as / Rahula / in water / also clean thing / (they) wash / also
                                    dirty thing / wash
                                    Rahula, just as (people) wash in the water what is clean and what is
                                    dirty

                                    dhovati (v.) washes.

                                    guuthagatampi dhovanti, muttagatampi dhovanti, khe.lagatampi
                                    dhovanti, pubbagatampi dhovanti, lohitagatampi dhovanti,
                                    also faeces / wash / also urine / wash / also spittle / wash / also
                                    pus / wash / also blood / wash
                                    -- faeces, urine, spittle, pus and blood,

                                    na ca tena aapo a.t.tiiyati vaa haraayati vaa jigucchati vaa;
                                    not / and yet / because of it / water / is afflicted / or / is
                                    vexed / or / is disgusted / or
                                    and yet the water is not afflicted, vexed or disgusted because of it.

                                    evameva kho tva.m, Raahula, aaposama.m bhaavana.m bhaavehi.
                                    likewise / indeed / you / Rahula / water-like / mental development /
                                    cultivate
                                    Likewise, Rahula, you should cultivate the mental development that is
                                    like the water.

                                    Aaposama~nhi te, Raahula, bhaavana.m bhaavayato uppannaa manaapa-
                                    amanaapaa phassaa citta.m na pariyaadaaya .thassanti.
                                    water-like / for you / Rahula / mental development / is cultivating /
                                    arisen / pleasant and unpleasant / impressions / mind / not / having
                                    overcome / will persist
                                    Rahula, for you who are cultivating the mental development that is
                                    like the water, pleasant and unpleasant impressions that have arisen
                                    will not persistently overwhelm the mind.


                                    metta,
                                    Yong Peng
                                  • nina van gorkom
                                    Dear Yong Peng, I am hesitant about the use of the article before: water. Piya gave some tips about the use of the article. Is this better: like water, namely,
                                    Message 17 of 30 , Jul 14 10:02 AM
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                                      Dear Yong Peng,
                                      I am hesitant about the use of the article before: water. Piya gave some
                                      tips about the use of the article. Is this better: like water, namely, water
                                      in general? I am not sure. We also had: the earth. Is earth better?
                                      PTS used: the earth, but water, fire and wind without articles. A question
                                      of feeling how it sounds?
                                      Nina.

                                      op 13-07-2003 14:39 schreef Ong Yong Peng op ypong001@...:

                                      > "Aaposama.m, Raahula, bhaavana.m bhaavehi.
                                      > water-like / Rahula / mental development / cultivate
                                      > "Rahula, cultivate the mental development that is like the water.
                                    • Ong Yong Peng
                                      Dear Nina and friends, thanks. I agree it is better not to have the article before water , since we are referring to a general body of water. Grammatically,
                                      Message 18 of 30 , Jul 15 7:21 AM
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                                        Dear Nina and friends,

                                        thanks. I agree it is better not to have the article before 'water',
                                        since we are referring to a general body of water. Grammatically, it
                                        is right, and I think it sounds great. :-)

                                        metta,
                                        Yong Peng

                                        --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote:
                                        I am hesitant about the use of the article before: water. Piya gave
                                        some tips about the use of the article. Is this better: like water,
                                        namely, water in general? I am not sure. We also had: the earth. Is
                                        earth better?
                                        PTS used: the earth, but water, fire and wind without articles. A
                                        question of feeling how it sounds?
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