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Re: Mahaaraahulovaadasutta, bhaavayato: help urgently needed

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  • Ong Yong Peng
    Dear Nina, Jim and friends, thanks, this is real tough. pathaviisama~nhi te, raahula, bhaavana.m bhaavayato Here, te ins./gen./dat. of tumha , you 1. Is
    Message 1 of 30 , May 2, 2003
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      Dear Nina, Jim and friends,

      thanks, this is real tough.

      pathaviisama~nhi te, raahula, bhaavana.m bhaavayato

      Here, 'te' ins./gen./dat. of 'tumha', you

      1. Is pathaviisama~nhi=pathaviisama.m+hi : for earthlike?

      2. Can 'bhaaveti' be written as 'bhaavayati'?

      3. Is 'bhaavayato' a noun or a verb?

      metta,
      Yong Peng


      --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Jim Anderson wrote:
      > I believe that 'bhaavayato' is a present participle derived from a
      causative stem with either the dative or genitive (6th case) singular
      ending (see Warder p. 169). Note that 'paapentassa' is a gloss
      for 'bhaavayato' at Ps III 140 (also note 'bhaaventassa'
      for 'bhaavayato' at Pa.tis-a II 468). I think it is more likely here
      to be in the genitive case "of (in reference to) the one developing"
      although instead of "of", "for" probably fits better.

      > --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom <nilo@e...> wrote:
      > > Nina: I found in Warder Ch 28, (p. 316): Denominative
      conjugation: Any root can be used as a verb by adding conjugational
      suffixes. W. says, noun stems can also be used as a verb.
      (dhaaturuupakasaddha). Here it comes: They are usually conjugated
      according to the seventh conjugation (substituting the suffix e/aya,
      or adding ya to the stem... Looking at the seventh conjugation: Ch 3:
      form present stems with the vowel e, or much less often with the
      fuller suffix aya, of which e is a contraction. And, ch 13: causative
      conjugation: frequently coincides with the seventh conjugation. Roots
      may appear in the causative meanings with the stem in e or a fuller
      form aya ...As in the seventh conjugation the rootvowel is usually
      strengthened or lengthened.
      > > You mentioned; bhaaveti to develop. I wonder whether this is
      O.K.: bhaavayato: by the development (cultivation) of.. We have the
      ablative suffix -to, and the causative stem bhaavaya (from bhaave).
      The P.t.S. just translates: <For, from the developing the development
      of...>
    • Ong Yong Peng
      Dear Nina, Jim and friends, allow me to ask another question: 4. Is bhaavayato derived from bhaava or bhaaveti ? I have tried working on both as
      Message 2 of 30 , May 2, 2003
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        Dear Nina, Jim and friends,

        allow me to ask another question:

        4. Is 'bhaavayato' derived from 'bhaava' or 'bhaaveti'? I have tried
        working on both as suggested, but still can't get to 'bhaavayato'.

        metta,
        Yong Peng

        --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Ong Yong Peng wrote:
        > pathaviisama~nhi te, raahula, bhaavana.m bhaavayato
        >
        > Here, 'te' ins./gen./dat. of 'tumha', you
        >
        > 1. Is pathaviisama~nhi=pathaviisama.m+hi : for earthlike?
        >
        > 2. Can 'bhaaveti' be written as 'bhaavayati'?
        >
        > 3. Is 'bhaavayato' a noun or a verb?
      • nina van gorkom
        Dear Jim, This is wonderful, thank you very much. I had thought of this possibility of a present participle, but then had doubts, I did not think of the
        Message 3 of 30 , May 2, 2003
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          Dear Jim,
          This is wonderful, thank you very much.
          I had thought of this possibility of a present participle, but then had
          doubts, I did not think of the causative bhaaveti. But now it is clear if we
          think of the causative: for someone who develops (cultivates, makes become).
          If I have got it right now: aya is derived from the e form. And this is
          interesting: Buddhadatta's dict. gives the variant on -maana as :
          bhaavayamaana (from bhaaveti).
          And the references form the Pa.tis-a are most helpful. Also in the Subco to
          this passage I find:paapento. The subco refers to vipassanaa and I shall
          translate this part of the subco next to the commentary.
          sammaa akkhaataani: From now on I shall be more careful with that inserted
          d, it is tricky. Thus, well declared.
          This is most helpful and inspiring, and thank you again,
          Nina.
          op 02-05-2003 04:10 schreef Jim Anderson op jimanderson_on@...:
          >
          > I believe that 'bhaavayato' is a present participle derived from a
          > causative stem with either the dative or genitive (6th case) singular
          > ending (see Warder p. 169). Note that 'paapentassa' is a gloss
          > for 'bhaavayato' at Ps III 140 (also note 'bhaaventassa'
          > for 'bhaavayato' at Pa.tis-a II 468). I think it is more likely here
          > to be in the genitive case "of (in reference to) the one developing"
          > although instead of "of", "for" probably fits better.
          >
          > A while ago I saw that you and John K. were trying to figure
          > out "sammadakkhaataani" (samma-d-akkhaataani) but not sure if it was
          > ever solved satisfactorily. It is equivalent to "sammaa akkhaataani".
          > It is due to sandhi that the 'd' is inserted and the long 'a'
          > of 'sammaa' is shortened. The 'd' is technically called an augment
          > (aagama) which is also seen in 'sammadeva' (samma-d-eva). Other
          > letters are used in the same way for different combinations, eg.
          > yatha-y-ida.m. Several sandhi rules on this can be found in the
          > Saddaniiti (sandhikappo).
        • nina van gorkom
          Dear Yong Peng, op 02-05-2003 11:26 schreef Ong Yong Peng op ypong001@yahoo.com: N: pathaviisama~nhi te, raahula, bhaavana.m bhaavayato ... For you (te,
          Message 4 of 30 , May 2, 2003
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            Dear Yong Peng,
            op 02-05-2003 11:26 schreef Ong Yong Peng op ypong001@...:

            N: pathaviisama~nhi te, raahula, bhaavana.m bhaavayato
            >pathaviisama~nhi te, raahula, bhaavana.m bhaavayato
            For you (te, dative) , Rahula, who is developing (bhaavayato, from bhaveti,
            present participle and also dative), the development (bhaavana.m) that is
            like the earth (pathaviisama ~nhi), agreeable and disagreeable, etc.

            Y: Here, 'te' ins./gen./dat. of 'tumha', you
            N: for you
            > 1. Is pathaviisama~nhi=pathaviisama.m+hi : for earthlike?
            N: I did not translate the word hi: points to what follows?
            Y: 2. Can 'bhaaveti' be written as 'bhaavayati'?
            N: Especially in the present participium. And here bhaavayato is gen. or
            dative, but in the transl here it can be said: for. (for you who)
            Y: 3. Is 'bhaavayato' a noun or a verb?
            N: It is present participle, and here in the dative .
            Nina.
          • Ong Yong Peng
            Dear Nina, Jim and friends, thanks. I look at Charles Duroiselle s A Practical Grammar of the Pali Language and got this from Chapter 10: root: bhuu, to be
            Message 5 of 30 , May 2, 2003
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              Dear Nina, Jim and friends,

              thanks. I look at Charles Duroiselle's A Practical Grammar of the
              Pali Language and got this from Chapter 10:

              root: bhuu, to be
              (492) causative: bhaave, bhaavaya
              (496) causative base/stem: bhaaveti, to cultivate, practise
              (441) present participle: bhaaventa, bhaavaya.m, bhaavayanta,
              bhaavayamaana.

              Let us choose bhaavaya.m, cultivating, practising.

              "te bhaavayato"

              te = dative of tumha, for you

              then, 'bhaavayato' is 'bhaavaya.m' declined to 'te' which is dative,
              singular, masculine(?).

              I take it that 'bhaavaya.m' is declined similarly to araha.m [see
              Duroiselle Chpt.5 (167)]

              Araha.m > Dat. Sing. > Arahato

              Thus,
              bhaavaya.m > Dat. Sing. > bhaavayato

              Please correct me if I am wrong.


              metta,
              Yong Peng


              --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote:
              > N: pathaviisama~nhi te, raahula, bhaavana.m bhaavayato
              > >pathaviisama~nhi te, raahula, bhaavana.m bhaavayato
              > For you (te, dative) , Rahula, who is developing (bhaavayato, from
              bhaveti, present participle and also dative), the development
              (bhaavana.m) that is like the earth (pathaviisama ~nhi), agreeable
              and disagreeable, etc.
              >
              > Y: 2. Can 'bhaaveti' be written as 'bhaavayati'?
              > N: Especially in the present participium. And here bhaavayato is
              gen. or dative, but in the transl here it can be said: for. (for you
              who)
              >
              > Y: 3. Is 'bhaavayato' a noun or a verb?
              > N: It is present participle, and here in the dative .
            • Ong Yong Peng
              Dear Nina, Jim and friends, I notice that Duoiselle Chpt.5 §166 has declension of bhava.m, so should bhaavaya.m be declined according to bhava.m or araha.m?
              Message 6 of 30 , May 2, 2003
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                Dear Nina, Jim and friends,

                I notice that Duoiselle Chpt.5 §166 has declension of bhava.m, so
                should bhaavaya.m be declined according to bhava.m or araha.m? Thanks.

                metta,
                Yong Peng

                --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Ong Yong Peng wrote:
                I take it that 'bhaavaya.m' is declined similarly to araha.m [see
                Duroiselle Chpt.5 (167)]
                >
                > Araha.m > Dat. Sing. > Arahato
                >
                > Thus,
                > bhaavaya.m > Dat. Sing. > bhaavayato
              • Jim Anderson
                Dear Nina and Yong Peng, You ve both gotten away ahead of me on this thread. Although I consider bhaavayato to be a present participle, I pointed this out at
                Message 7 of 30 , May 3, 2003
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                  Dear Nina and Yong Peng,

                  You've both gotten away ahead of me on this thread. Although I
                  consider "bhaavayato" to be a present participle, I pointed this out
                  at a time when I still had yet to consider it carefully in the context
                  of the passage. I have since done some of that and I agree that "te"
                  belongs with "bhaavayato" and that both are in the same case and
                  number. However, I question that they are in the dative case. Could
                  this not be a genitive absolute construction as described by Warder,
                  p. 58 or Duroiselle, no. 603?

                  pathaviisama~nhi te, raahula, bhaavana.m bhaavayato, . . . -- M I 423

                  For while (or when, as) you, Rahula, are developing the development
                  that is like the earth, . . .

                  I'm not too clear on a number of parts in the sentence. I find
                  'develeping the development' awkward in English. Also, the placement
                  of the 'na' before 'pariyaadaaya' instead of before '.thassanti' seems
                  unusual to me.

                  Best wishes,

                  Jim

                  --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote:
                  > N: pathaviisama~nhi te, raahula, bhaavana.m bhaavayato
                  > >pathaviisama~nhi te, raahula, bhaavana.m bhaavayato
                  > For you (te, dative) , Rahula, who is developing (bhaavayato, from
                  bhaveti, present participle and also dative), the development
                  (bhaavana.m) that is like the earth (pathaviisama ~nhi), agreeable
                  and disagreeable, etc.
                  >
                • Ong Yong Peng
                  Dear Nina, Jim and friends, Jim, you are probably right. If only others can also throw a light into this. Technically, if te is genitive, and since
                  Message 8 of 30 , May 3, 2003
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                    Dear Nina, Jim and friends,

                    Jim, you are probably right. If only others can also throw a light
                    into this.

                    Technically, if 'te' is genitive, and since 'bhaavayato' present
                    participle, then "te bhaavayato" is <quote Warder page 58> a
                    construction called the "genitive absolute" consists of a noun
                    followed by a participle, both inflected in the genitive <end quote>.

                    In that case, "te bhaavayato" becomes "as/while you are
                    cultivating/developing/practising".

                    Here is the abstract from the suttas provided by Dimitry at the
                    beginning of the project:

                    "Pathaviisama.m, Raahula, bhaavana.m bhaavehi. Pathaviisama~nhi te,
                    Raahula, bhaavana.m bhaavayato uppannaa manaapaamanaapaa phassaa
                    citta.m na pariyaadaaya .thassanti.

                    (a) Ven. Anzan Hoshin sensei and Tory Cox
                    Practise like the earth, Rahula. If you become like the earth then
                    the sensations which arise, whether pleasant or unpleasant, do not
                    take hold of the mind, nor do they establish themselves.

                    (b)
                    Rahula, develop a mind similar to earth, when you develop a mind
                    similar to earth arisen contacts of like and dislike do not take hold
                    of your mind and stay.

                    I have tried to redo it again:

                    According to PED:
                    bhaavanna=producing, dwelling on something, putting one's thoughts
                    to, application, developing by means of thought or meditation,
                    cultivation by mind, culture.

                    "Rahula, cultivate the mental quality that is like the earth. Rahula,
                    while you are cultivating the mental quality that is like the earth,
                    pleasant and unpleasant impressions that have arisen will not
                    overwhelm the mind and persist.

                    Please correct me if I am wrong.


                    metta,
                    Yong Peng

                    --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Jim Anderson wrote:
                    You've both gotten away ahead of me on this thread. Although I
                    consider "bhaavayato" to be a present participle, I pointed this out
                    at a time when I still had yet to consider it carefully in the
                    context of the passage. I have since done some of that and I agree
                    that "te" belongs with "bhaavayato" and that both are in the same
                    case and number. However, I question that they are in the dative
                    case. Could this not be a genitive absolute construction as described
                    by Warder, p. 58 or Duroiselle, no. 603?
                    >
                    pathaviisama~nhi te, raahula, bhaavana.m bhaavayato, . . . -- M I 423
                    >
                    For while (or when, as) you, Rahula, are developing the development
                    that is like the earth, . . .
                    >
                    I'm not too clear on a number of parts in the sentence. I
                    find 'develeping the development' awkward in English. Also, the
                    placement of the 'na' before 'pariyaadaaya' instead of
                    before '.thassanti' seems unusual to me.
                    >
                    > --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote:
                    > > N: pathaviisama~nhi te, raahula, bhaavana.m bhaavayato
                    > > >pathaviisama~nhi te, raahula, bhaavana.m bhaavayato
                    > > For you (te, dative) , Rahula, who is developing (bhaavayato, from
                    > bhaveti, present participle and also dative), the development
                    > (bhaavana.m) that is like the earth (pathaviisama ~nhi), agreeable
                    > and disagreeable, etc.
                  • Ong Yong Peng
                    Dear Nina, Jim and friends, allow me to add that, I have taken Pathaviisama~nhi te bhaavana.m bhaavayato te pathaviisama~nhi bhaavana.m bhaavayato te
                    Message 9 of 30 , May 3, 2003
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                      Dear Nina, Jim and friends,

                      allow me to add that, I have taken "Pathaviisama~nhi te bhaavana.m
                      bhaavayato" >> "te pathaviisama~nhi bhaavana.m bhaavayato"

                      te bhaavayato = while/as you are developing
                      pathaviisama~nhi bhaavana.m = development of the mind to be like the
                      earth??? If the enclitic 'hi' for 'pathaviisama~nhi' can be fully
                      understood, we could render a better sentence in English.

                      Please correct me if I am wrong.

                      metta,
                      Yong Peng

                      --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Ong Yong Peng wrote:
                      "Pathaviisama.m, Raahula, bhaavana.m bhaavehi. Pathaviisama~nhi te,
                      Raahula, bhaavana.m bhaavayato uppannaa manaapaamanaapaa phassaa
                      citta.m na pariyaadaaya .thassanti.
                      >
                      I have tried to redo it again:
                      >
                      According to PED:
                      bhaavanna=producing, dwelling on something, putting one's thoughts
                      to, application, developing by means of thought or meditation,
                      cultivation by mind, culture.
                      >
                      "Rahula, cultivate the mental quality that is like the earth. Rahula,
                      while you are cultivating the mental quality that is like the earth,
                      pleasant and unpleasant impressions that have arisen will not
                      overwhelm the mind and persist.
                    • nina van gorkom
                      Dear Jim and all, op 03-05-2003 17:48 schreef Jim Anderson op jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca: Could ... N: I think it is likely, because the sentence has more than
                      Message 10 of 30 , May 4, 2003
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                        Dear Jim and all,
                        op 03-05-2003 17:48 schreef Jim Anderson op jimanderson_on@...:
                        Could
                        > this not be a genitive absolute construction as described by Warder,
                        > p. 58 or Duroiselle, no. 603?
                        >
                        > pathaviisama~nhi te, raahula, bhaavana.m bhaavayato, . . . -- M I 423
                        >
                        > For while (or when, as) you, Rahula, are developing the development
                        > that is like the earth, . . .
                        N: I think it is likely, because the sentence has more than one agent. the
                        other being: the impressions, etc. phassaa.
                        J: I'm not too clear on a number of parts in the sentence. I find
                        > 'develeping the development' awkward in English. Also, the placement
                        > of the 'na' before 'pariyaadaaya' instead of before '.thassanti' seems
                        > unusual to me.
                        N: I think na is for both. I compared the Co:
                        <citta.m na pariyaadaaya .thassantiiti ete phassaa uppajjitvaa
                        As to the words, they do not overcome the mind and persist, this means,
                        after these impressions have arisen,
                        tava citta.m antomu.t.thigata.m karonto viya
                        while the mind just makes as it were a clenched fist >
                        I compared with the Thai, and avoiding the awkward: having not overcome..
                        they do not persist, the Thai uses:they do not overcome the mind, but here
                        is not translated: and do not persist, .thassanti.
                        And there is also this in the Co:
                        pariyaadaaya gahetvaa .thaatu.m na sakkhissanti,
                        here we have gahetvaa and then at end: na sakkhissanti. I take the
                        gahetvaa: after (the mind) has seized them... ??they do not remain. In the
                        subco: this adds :pariggahetvaa, as a gloss to gahetvaa:
                        <gahetvaati kusalappavattiyaa okaasadaanavasena pariggahetvaa.
                        As to the words, having taken hold of, because of the opportunity given for
                        a skilful life, after he has comprehended. >
                        This is difficult for me. What is the gahetvaa, who is doing it.
                        Earlier in the Co. it was stated; Rahula had to develop vipassana pa~n~naa.
                        The meaning is just as in the Elephant's Footprint Discourse, where the
                        monk, after he has learnt the elements, is not disturbed by painful bodily
                        impressions nor by harsh words.
                        By the way if you have time, I stared so long on tava (in the Co.), va is:
                        just, only, indeed, but the ta: ta.m? Because indeed, or because just?
                        Thank you,
                        Nina.
                      • nina van gorkom
                        Dear Yong Peng, ... N:Now Jim just suggested it to be genitive absolute: when you, Rahula, are cultivating (applying yourself to) the development that is like
                        Message 11 of 30 , May 4, 2003
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                          Dear Yong Peng,
                          op 03-05-2003 02:02 schreef Ong Yong Peng op ypong001@...:

                          > thanks. I look at Charles Duroiselle's A Practical Grammar of the
                          > Pali Language and got this from Chapter 10:
                          >
                          > root: bhuu, to be
                          > (492) causative: bhaave, bhaavaya
                          > (496) causative base/stem: bhaaveti, to cultivate, practise
                          > (441) present participle: bhaaventa, bhaavaya.m, bhaavayanta,
                          > bhaavayamaana.
                          >
                          > Let us choose bhaavaya.m, cultivating, practising.
                          >
                          > "te bhaavayato"
                          >
                          > te = dative of tumha, for you
                          >
                          > then, 'bhaavayato' is 'bhaavaya.m' declined to 'te' which is dative,
                          > singular, masculine(?).
                          N:Now Jim just suggested it to be genitive absolute: when you, Rahula, are
                          cultivating (applying yourself to) the development that is like the earth...
                          What do you think of it?
                          Y: I take it that 'bhaavaya.m' is declined similarly to araha.m [see
                          > Duroiselle Chpt.5 (167)]
                          > Araha.m > Dat. Sing. > Arahato
                          > Thus,
                          > bhaavaya.m > Dat. Sing. > bhaavayato
                          N: I am afraid to say so, because then we are comparing a noun with a verb
                          form, the present participle.
                          Nina.
                          >
                        • nina van gorkom
                          Dear Yong Peng, Suggestions below seem good, it is a matter of choice now about deciding what is best in English. Nina.
                          Message 12 of 30 , May 4, 2003
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                            Dear Yong Peng,
                            Suggestions below seem good, it is a matter of choice now about deciding
                            what is best in English.
                            Nina.
                            op 04-05-2003 00:18 schreef Ong Yong Peng op ypong001@...:


                            > Technically, if 'te' is genitive, and since 'bhaavayato' present
                            > participle, then "te bhaavayato" is <quote Warder page 58> a
                            > construction called the "genitive absolute" consists of a noun
                            > followed by a participle, both inflected in the genitive <end quote>.
                            >
                            > In that case, "te bhaavayato" becomes "as/while you are
                            > cultivating/developing/practising".
                            >
                            > Here is the abstract from the suttas provided by Dimitry at the
                            > beginning of the project:
                            >
                            > "Pathaviisama.m, Raahula, bhaavana.m bhaavehi. Pathaviisama~nhi te,
                            > Raahula, bhaavana.m bhaavayato uppannaa manaapaamanaapaa phassaa
                            > citta.m na pariyaadaaya .thassanti.
                            >
                            > (a) Ven. Anzan Hoshin sensei and Tory Cox
                            > Practise like the earth, Rahula. If you become like the earth then
                            > the sensations which arise, whether pleasant or unpleasant, do not
                            > take hold of the mind, nor do they establish themselves.
                            >
                            > (b)
                            > Rahula, develop a mind similar to earth, when you develop a mind
                            > similar to earth arisen contacts of like and dislike do not take hold
                            > of your mind and stay.
                            >
                            > I have tried to redo it again:
                            >
                            > According to PED:
                            > bhaavanna=producing, dwelling on something, putting one's thoughts
                            > to, application, developing by means of thought or meditation,
                            > cultivation by mind, culture.
                            >
                            > "Rahula, cultivate the mental quality that is like the earth. Rahula,
                            > while you are cultivating the mental quality that is like the earth,
                            > pleasant and unpleasant impressions that have arisen will not
                            > overwhelm the mind and persist.
                            >
                            >
                          • Ong Yong Peng
                            Dear Nina and friends, sorry for any confusion. Perhaps I should say that bhaavaya.m takes the declension of adjectives ending in -vantu and -mantu? Kindly
                            Message 13 of 30 , May 5, 2003
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                              Dear Nina and friends,

                              sorry for any confusion. Perhaps I should say that bhaavaya.m takes
                              the declension of adjectives ending in -vantu and -mantu? Kindly
                              enlighten me. Thanks.

                              metta,
                              Yong Peng

                              --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote:
                              > "te bhaavayato"
                              >
                              > te = dative of tumha, for you
                              >
                              > then, 'bhaavayato' is 'bhaavaya.m' declined to 'te' which is
                              dative, singular, masculine(?).
                              > > Y: I take it that 'bhaavaya.m' is declined similarly to araha.m
                              [see Duroiselle Chpt.5 (167)]
                              Araha.m > Dat. Sing. > Arahato
                              Thus,
                              bhaavaya.m > Dat. Sing. > bhaavayato
                              > N: I am afraid to say so, because then we are comparing a noun
                              with a verb form, the present participle.
                            • Jim Anderson
                              Dear Nina, ... Warder, ... 423 ... development ... agent. the ... Offlist, Teng Kee has raised an interesting point about the correct usage of the genitive
                              Message 14 of 30 , May 5, 2003
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                                Dear Nina,

                                > Dear Jim and all,
                                > op 03-05-2003 17:48 schreef Jim Anderson op jimanderson_on@...:
                                > Could
                                > > this not be a genitive absolute construction as described by
                                Warder,
                                > > p. 58 or Duroiselle, no. 603?
                                > >
                                > > pathaviisama~nhi te, raahula, bhaavana.m bhaavayato, . . . -- M I
                                423
                                > >
                                > > For while (or when, as) you, Rahula, are developing the
                                development
                                > > that is like the earth, . . .
                                > N: I think it is likely, because the sentence has more than one
                                agent. the
                                > other being: the impressions, etc. phassaa.

                                Offlist, Teng Kee has raised an interesting point about the correct
                                usage of the genitive absolute in the sense of disregard (anaadara)
                                "in spite of, despite" according to the native grammars. Warder also
                                discusses this sense but he and others seem to think that the gen.
                                abs. can be used a little more liberally. I'm not sure. For what it's
                                worth, the following is my response to Teng Kee:

                                << Warder does mention this usage (anaadaramhi ca. -- Sadd §633) on
                                p.58 as follows:

                                << Often the genitive absolute has the special sense of disregarding:
                                "despite (the noun doing the participle)." >>

                                I think that strictly speaking in accordance with the native grammars
                                this may be the only usage allowed which can also be used in the
                                locative absolute. It seems possible to translate the sutta passage in
                                the 'anaadara' sense which would go like:

                                For, Rahula, in spite of you developing the development that is like
                                the earth; without (you) having fully grasped (your) mind, the
                                impressions that arise, agreeable or disagreeable, will persist.

                                But this may not fit in too well in the context of the rest of the
                                paragraph. >>

                                > J: I'm not too clear on a number of parts in the sentence. I find
                                > > 'develeping the development' awkward in English. Also, the
                                placement
                                > > of the 'na' before 'pariyaadaaya' instead of before '.thassanti'
                                seems
                                > > unusual to me.
                                > N: I think na is for both. I compared the Co:
                                > <citta.m na pariyaadaaya .thassantiiti ete phassaa uppajjitvaa
                                > As to the words, they do not overcome the mind and persist, this
                                means,
                                > after these impressions have arisen,
                                > tava citta.m antomu.t.thigata.m karonto viya
                                > while the mind just makes as it were a clenched fist >
                                > I compared with the Thai, and avoiding the awkward: having not
                                overcome..
                                > they do not persist, the Thai uses:they do not overcome the mind,
                                but here
                                > is not translated: and do not persist, .thassanti.
                                > And there is also this in the Co:
                                > pariyaadaaya gahetvaa .thaatu.m na sakkhissanti,

                                I'm inclined to think that the 'na' in the sutta passage is intended
                                for 'pariyaadaaya' only. I think if both were negated it would have
                                been written like 'apariyaadaaya na .thassanti'. Note that in the cty.
                                there is no 'na' preceding 'pariyaadaaya' as is the case in the sutta.
                                I have checked three versions of the same cty. passage and all are the
                                same in this respect. I'm not sure why this is so. One possibility
                                could be that the cty. is explaining in opposite terms for what would
                                occur if the citta were fully grasped.

                                > here we have gahetvaa and then at end: na sakkhissanti. I take the
                                > gahetvaa: after (the mind) has seized them... ??they do not remain.
                                In the
                                > subco: this adds :pariggahetvaa, as a gloss to gahetvaa:
                                > <gahetvaati kusalappavattiyaa okaasadaanavasena pariggahetvaa.
                                > As to the words, having taken hold of, because of the opportunity
                                given for
                                > a skilful life, after he has comprehended. >
                                > This is difficult for me. What is the gahetvaa, who is doing it.

                                It is difficult for me too. I'm not yet sure who or what is grasping
                                the mind. It seems that it would either have to be the impressions or
                                Rahula. It's certainly not at all clear.

                                > Earlier in the Co. it was stated; Rahula had to develop vipassana
                                pa~n~naa.
                                > The meaning is just as in the Elephant's Footprint Discourse, where
                                the
                                > monk, after he has learnt the elements, is not disturbed by painful
                                bodily
                                > impressions nor by harsh words.
                                > By the way if you have time, I stared so long on tava (in the Co.),
                                va is:
                                > just, only, indeed, but the ta: ta.m? Because indeed, or because
                                just?

                                'tava' (also 'tuyha.m') like 'te' is the genitive (or dative) singular
                                of 'tva.m', so 'tava citta.m' = your mind or thought.

                                Best wishes,

                                Jim
                              • nina van gorkom
                                Dear Yong Peng, ... Perhaps I should say that bhaavaya.m takes ... N: I think as gaccha.m or gacchanto, Warder Ch 21, and also: Ch 13: as causative: kaarento,
                                Message 15 of 30 , May 6, 2003
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                                  Dear Yong Peng,
                                  op 05-05-2003 12:21 schreef Ong Yong Peng op ypong001@...:
                                  >
                                  Perhaps I should say that bhaavaya.m takes
                                  > the declension of adjectives ending in -vantu and -mantu? Kindly
                                  > enlighten me.
                                  N: I think as gaccha.m or gacchanto, Warder Ch 21,
                                  and also: Ch 13: as causative: kaarento, kaarayato.
                                  -vantu and -mantu seems a different matter.
                                  Nina.
                                • nina van gorkom
                                  Dear Jim, Thank you very much. It is well worth considering. Thank you for the tava, from tvam By the way, it is helpful if Teng Kee would let us share his
                                  Message 16 of 30 , May 6, 2003
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                                    Dear Jim,
                                    Thank you very much. It is well worth considering.
                                    Thank you for the tava, from tvam
                                    By the way, it is helpful if Teng Kee would let us share his observations on
                                    the list, I would like to follow such discussions, interesting and useful
                                    for all of us here.
                                    op 06-05-2003 01:54 schreef Jim Anderson op jimanderson_on@...:
                                    >
                                    > << Often the genitive absolute has the special sense of disregarding:
                                    > "despite (the noun doing the participle)." >>
                                    >
                                    > I think that strictly speaking in accordance with the native grammars
                                    > this may be the only usage allowed which can also be used in the
                                    > locative absolute. It seems possible to translate the sutta passage in
                                    > the 'anaadara' sense which would go like:
                                    >
                                    > For, Rahula, in spite of you developing the development that is like
                                    > the earth; without (you) having fully grasped (your) mind, the
                                    > impressions that arise, agreeable or disagreeable, will persist.
                                    >
                                    > But this may not fit in too well in the context of the rest of the
                                    > paragraph. >>
                                    N: alternatives:this is the old one: A:
                                    pathaviisama~nhi te, raahula, bhaavana.m bhaavayato

                                    For when you apply yourself to the mental development that is like the
                                    earth, Rahula,

                                    uppannaa manaapaamanaapaa phassaa citta.m na pariyaadaaya .thassanti.

                                    agreeable and disagreeable impressions that have arisen, will not overwhelm
                                    the mind and persist.
                                    The alternative:B:
                                    I looked again at pariyaadaaya: pariyaadati: put an end to, master,
                                    destroy.
                                    PED: SIII, 155: it is said of raaga.m. To master attachment.

                                    For while you apply yourself to the mental development that is like the
                                    earth, Rahula, and you do not control the mind, agreeable and disagreeable
                                    impressions that have arisen will stay.

                                    Now comparing with Co and Subco:
                                    Co: citta.m na pariyaadaaya .thassantiiti ete phassaa uppajjitvaa
                                    With reference to the words, when you do not control your mind: this means,
                                    after these impressions have arisen,

                                    tava citta.m antomu.t.thigata.m karonto viya
                                    and your mind makes just as it were a clenched fist,

                                    pariyaadaaya gahetvaa .thaatu.m na sakkhissanti,
                                    and it has controlled and mastered them, they cannot stay.
                                    The Subco:
                                    gahetvaati kusalappavattiyaa okaasadaanavasena pariggahetvaa.

                                    As to the words, after it (the mind) has taken hold of them (mastered them),
                                    afterit has comprehended them, because of the opportunity that was given for
                                    a skilful course of action.
                                    Conclusion: pariyaadaaya, gahetvaa and pariggahetvaa: they seem more or less
                                    synonyms for mind control. The citta is doing this (of course not without
                                    the right condiitons: it is by vipassana). If this does not happen, those
                                    impressions remain.
                                    This is as far as I have got. With B the Co and subco seems to agree more.
                                    We shall have to make a choice between alternatives A and B, or is there a
                                    C?
                                    Nina.
                                    >
                                  • Ong Yong Peng
                                    Dear Nina and friends, thanks, Nina. As my exams are just a few weeks away, perhaps my brain is not working well on Pali. May I suggest that we take a break
                                    Message 17 of 30 , May 6, 2003
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                                      Dear Nina and friends,

                                      thanks, Nina. As my exams are just a few weeks away, perhaps my brain
                                      is not working well on Pali. May I suggest that we take a break for
                                      now, and resume after 24 June. My exams starts on 10 June.

                                      metta,
                                      Yong Peng

                                      --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote:
                                      > Perhaps I should say that bhaavaya.m takes
                                      > > the declension of adjectives ending in -vantu and -mantu? Kindly
                                      > > enlighten me.
                                      > N: I think as gaccha.m or gacchanto, Warder Ch 21,
                                      > and also: Ch 13: as causative: kaarento, kaarayato.
                                      > -vantu and -mantu seems a different matter.
                                    • Jim Anderson
                                      Dear Nina, Thanks for all the hard work you ve put into this so far. I think it s going to be rather difficult to come to a clear understanding of this
                                      Message 18 of 30 , May 6, 2003
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                                        Dear Nina,

                                        Thanks for all the hard work you've put into this so far. I think it's
                                        going to be rather difficult to come to a clear understanding of this
                                        sentence any time soon. It just seems that the more we delve into it,
                                        the more confusing and unclear it becomes, at least for me. Often it
                                        becomes necessary to undertake a lot of research (in tens of hours) to
                                        get just a slightly better understanding of a word or a phrase here
                                        and there. When I came forward to offer some help in identifying
                                        'bhaavayato' as a pres. participle, it wasn't my intention to get too
                                        involved as I have been rather busy lately with other projects of my
                                        own which I would like to get back to soon.

                                        I thought that in order to get a better understanding of "citta.m na
                                        pariyaadaaya .thassanti" it might be wise to study this or other
                                        similar phrases in the context of other suttas along with their
                                        commentaries. I did a search on the CSCD for the word 'pariyaadaaya'
                                        which frequently goes with 'citta.m' and the results were that it
                                        occurs in the Suttantapi.taka 189 times and in the Majjhimanikaaya 62
                                        times. There could be more in the peyyala passages. A good place to
                                        start might be at M I 91 or 239-240 which I think will shed some more
                                        light. It appears that if one goes by the passage at M I 91 the
                                        'impressions' is the agent of 'pariyaadaaya' with 'citta.m' as the
                                        patient. Also in looking at 'tassa' in the M I 239f passage without
                                        any accompanying pres. part. there is the suggestion that the genitive
                                        absolute may not be a correct interpretation of 'te . . . bhaavayato'
                                        in our sentence.

                                        Best wishes,

                                        Jim
                                      • nina van gorkom
                                        Dear Yong Peng, I sympathize with your exams and wish you every success. Of course these need your full attention. I hope you will tell us the outcome.
                                        Message 19 of 30 , May 7, 2003
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                                          Dear Yong Peng,
                                          I sympathize with your exams and wish you every success. Of course these
                                          need your full attention. I hope you will tell us the outcome.
                                          Meanwhile, I shall keep on with the sutta text and commentaries. I shall
                                          come back June 25 on these texts, if I may. Then we can be at it again full
                                          force. Although you will have to prepare again for exams in October,
                                          November.
                                          These difficult sentences are repeated all the time in the sutta, and thus
                                          we have to arrive at a conclusion somehow.
                                          I shall be away (conditions permitting) May 10 until May 24.
                                          All the best,
                                          Nina.
                                          op 07-05-2003 02:34 schreef Ong Yong Peng op ypong001@...:
                                          May I suggest that we take a break for
                                          > now, and resume after 24 June. My exams starts on 10 June.
                                        • nina van gorkom
                                          Dear Jim, ... think will shed some more ... N: Thank you for your suggestions, I shall study these passages, I had not thought of this before, and I have the
                                          Message 20 of 30 , May 7, 2003
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                                            Dear Jim,
                                            op 07-05-2003 04:29 schreef Jim Anderson op jimanderson_on@...:
                                            > I thought that in order to get a better understanding of "citta.m na
                                            > pariyaadaaya .thassanti" it might be wise to study this or other
                                            > similar phrases in the context of other suttas along with their
                                            > commentaries.A good place to start might be at M I 91 or 239-240 which I
                                            think will shed some more
                                            > light. It appears that if one goes by the passage at M I 91 the
                                            > 'impressions' is the agent of 'pariyaadaaya' with 'citta.m' as the
                                            > patient. Also in looking at 'tassa' in the M I 239f passage without
                                            > any accompanying pres. part. there is the suggestion that the genitive
                                            > absolute may not be a correct interpretation of 'te . . . bhaavayato'
                                            > in our sentence.
                                            N: Thank you for your suggestions, I shall study these passages, I had not
                                            thought of this before, and I have the relevant Pali texts. However, I do
                                            not have the means at my disposal as you have. I like the types of
                                            discussions on texts we just had, it is not confusing, just considering
                                            alternatives. I understand that it is time consuming for you, since you have
                                            other projects. Meanwhile, I cannot let go of texts, I will not give up. I
                                            am glad you have given some directions. It is great if you can come in
                                            sometimes, always inspiring.
                                            I do not expect that I can make a translation without mistakes, but I try
                                            the best I can. If I would be afraid, I would never make any translation and
                                            this goes also for my Commentary translations.
                                            Thank you very much for all the efforts you have put in,
                                            Nina.
                                          • Ong Yong Peng
                                            Dear Nina and friends, thanks very much. Thanks for your advise for Word-by-Word too. Have a happy holiday. metta, Yong Peng.
                                            Message 21 of 30 , May 8, 2003
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                                              Dear Nina and friends,

                                              thanks very much. Thanks for your advise for Word-by-Word too. Have
                                              a happy holiday.

                                              metta,
                                              Yong Peng.
                                            • Ong Yong Peng
                                              Dear Nina and friends, here is the next paragraph from Maharahulovada Sutta. It follows very much what Nina has set out in the last paragraph. Please correct
                                              Message 22 of 30 , Jul 13, 2003
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                                                Dear Nina and friends,

                                                here is the next paragraph from Maharahulovada Sutta. It follows very
                                                much what Nina has set out in the last paragraph. Please correct me
                                                if I am wrong.

                                                "Aaposama.m, Raahula, bhaavana.m bhaavehi.
                                                water-like / Rahula / mental development / cultivate
                                                "Rahula, cultivate the mental development that is like the water.

                                                aaposama (adj.) water-like.

                                                Aaposama~nhi te, Raahula, bhaavana.m bhaavayato
                                                water-like / for you / Rahula / mental development / is cultivating
                                                Rahula, for you who are cultivating the mental development that is
                                                like the water,

                                                uppannaa manaapa-amanaapaa phassaa citta.m na pariyaadaaya .thassanti.
                                                arisen / pleasant and unpleasant / impressions / mind / not / having
                                                overcome / will persist
                                                pleasant and unpleasant impressions that have arisen will not
                                                persistently overwhelm the mind.

                                                Seyyathaapi, Raahula, aapasmi.m sucimpi dhovanti, asucimpi dhovanti,
                                                just as / Rahula / in water / also clean thing / (they) wash / also
                                                dirty thing / wash
                                                Rahula, just as (people) wash in the water what is clean and what is
                                                dirty

                                                dhovati (v.) washes.

                                                guuthagatampi dhovanti, muttagatampi dhovanti, khe.lagatampi
                                                dhovanti, pubbagatampi dhovanti, lohitagatampi dhovanti,
                                                also faeces / wash / also urine / wash / also spittle / wash / also
                                                pus / wash / also blood / wash
                                                -- faeces, urine, spittle, pus and blood,

                                                na ca tena aapo a.t.tiiyati vaa haraayati vaa jigucchati vaa;
                                                not / and yet / because of it / water / is afflicted / or / is
                                                vexed / or / is disgusted / or
                                                and yet the water is not afflicted, vexed or disgusted because of it.

                                                evameva kho tva.m, Raahula, aaposama.m bhaavana.m bhaavehi.
                                                likewise / indeed / you / Rahula / water-like / mental development /
                                                cultivate
                                                Likewise, Rahula, you should cultivate the mental development that is
                                                like the water.

                                                Aaposama~nhi te, Raahula, bhaavana.m bhaavayato uppannaa manaapa-
                                                amanaapaa phassaa citta.m na pariyaadaaya .thassanti.
                                                water-like / for you / Rahula / mental development / is cultivating /
                                                arisen / pleasant and unpleasant / impressions / mind / not / having
                                                overcome / will persist
                                                Rahula, for you who are cultivating the mental development that is
                                                like the water, pleasant and unpleasant impressions that have arisen
                                                will not persistently overwhelm the mind.


                                                metta,
                                                Yong Peng
                                              • nina van gorkom
                                                Dear Yong Peng, I am hesitant about the use of the article before: water. Piya gave some tips about the use of the article. Is this better: like water, namely,
                                                Message 23 of 30 , Jul 14, 2003
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                                                  Dear Yong Peng,
                                                  I am hesitant about the use of the article before: water. Piya gave some
                                                  tips about the use of the article. Is this better: like water, namely, water
                                                  in general? I am not sure. We also had: the earth. Is earth better?
                                                  PTS used: the earth, but water, fire and wind without articles. A question
                                                  of feeling how it sounds?
                                                  Nina.

                                                  op 13-07-2003 14:39 schreef Ong Yong Peng op ypong001@...:

                                                  > "Aaposama.m, Raahula, bhaavana.m bhaavehi.
                                                  > water-like / Rahula / mental development / cultivate
                                                  > "Rahula, cultivate the mental development that is like the water.
                                                • Ong Yong Peng
                                                  Dear Nina and friends, thanks. I agree it is better not to have the article before water , since we are referring to a general body of water. Grammatically,
                                                  Message 24 of 30 , Jul 15, 2003
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                                                    Dear Nina and friends,

                                                    thanks. I agree it is better not to have the article before 'water',
                                                    since we are referring to a general body of water. Grammatically, it
                                                    is right, and I think it sounds great. :-)

                                                    metta,
                                                    Yong Peng

                                                    --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote:
                                                    I am hesitant about the use of the article before: water. Piya gave
                                                    some tips about the use of the article. Is this better: like water,
                                                    namely, water in general? I am not sure. We also had: the earth. Is
                                                    earth better?
                                                    PTS used: the earth, but water, fire and wind without articles. A
                                                    question of feeling how it sounds?
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