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Re: Mahaaraahulovaadasutta, bhavayato: help urgently needed

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  • Jim Anderson
    Dear Nina and Yong Peng, I believe that bhaavayato is a present participle derived from a causative stem with either the dative or genitive (6th case)
    Message 1 of 30 , May 1, 2003
      Dear Nina and Yong Peng,

      I believe that 'bhaavayato' is a present participle derived from a
      causative stem with either the dative or genitive (6th case) singular
      ending (see Warder p. 169). Note that 'paapentassa' is a gloss
      for 'bhaavayato' at Ps III 140 (also note 'bhaaventassa'
      for 'bhaavayato' at Pa.tis-a II 468). I think it is more likely here
      to be in the genitive case "of (in reference to) the one developing"
      although instead of "of", "for" probably fits better.

      A while ago I saw that you and John K. were trying to figure
      out "sammadakkhaataani" (samma-d-akkhaataani) but not sure if it was
      ever solved satisfactorily. It is equivalent to "sammaa akkhaataani".
      It is due to sandhi that the 'd' is inserted and the long 'a'
      of 'sammaa' is shortened. The 'd' is technically called an augment
      (aagama) which is also seen in 'sammadeva' (samma-d-eva). Other
      letters are used in the same way for different combinations, eg.
      yatha-y-ida.m. Several sandhi rules on this can be found in the
      Saddaniiti (sandhikappo).

      Best wishes,

      Jim

      --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom <nilo@e...> wrote:
      > Dear Yong Peng,
      > some more research.
      > op 30-04-2003 14:30 schreef Ong Yong Peng op ypong001@y...:
      > > I have found three related words:
      > > 1. bhaava (m.) condition; nature; becoming.
      > > 2. bhaavanaa (f.) meditation; increase; development by means of
      > > thought.
      > > 3. bhaaveti (v.) to develop, cultivate, increase.
      > >
      > > There is also yato (ind.) from where; whence; since; because; on
      > > account of which.
      > >
      > > Is it possible that bhaavayato = bhaava+yato, because of the
      > > condition?
      > Nina: I found in Warder Ch 28, (p. 316): Denominative conjugation:
      Any root
      > can be used as a verb by adding conjugational suffixes. W. says,
      noun stems
      > can also be used as a verb. (dhaaturuupakasaddha). Here it comes:
      They are
      > usually conjugated according to the seventh conjugation
      (substituting the
      > suffix e/aya, or adding ya to the stem...
      > Looking at the seventh conjugation: Ch 3: form present stems with
      the vowel
      > e, or much less often with the fuller suffix aya, of which e is a
      > contraction. And, ch 13: causative conjugation: frequently
      coincides with
      > the seventh conjugation. Roots may appear in the causative meanings
      with the
      > stem in e or a fuller form aya ...As in the seventh conjugation the
      > rootvowel is usually strengthened or lengthened.
      > You mentioned; bhaaveti to develop. I wonder whether this is O.K.:
      > bhaavayato: by the development (cultivation) of.. We have the
      ablative
      > suffix -to, and the causative stem bhaavaya (from bhaave).
      > The P.t.S. just translates: <For, from the developing the
      development of...>
      > To be on the safe side, I would experts' opinion, if possible.
      > Nina.
    • Ong Yong Peng
      Dear Nina, Jim and friends, thanks, this is real tough. pathaviisama~nhi te, raahula, bhaavana.m bhaavayato Here, te ins./gen./dat. of tumha , you 1. Is
      Message 2 of 30 , May 2, 2003
        Dear Nina, Jim and friends,

        thanks, this is real tough.

        pathaviisama~nhi te, raahula, bhaavana.m bhaavayato

        Here, 'te' ins./gen./dat. of 'tumha', you

        1. Is pathaviisama~nhi=pathaviisama.m+hi : for earthlike?

        2. Can 'bhaaveti' be written as 'bhaavayati'?

        3. Is 'bhaavayato' a noun or a verb?

        metta,
        Yong Peng


        --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Jim Anderson wrote:
        > I believe that 'bhaavayato' is a present participle derived from a
        causative stem with either the dative or genitive (6th case) singular
        ending (see Warder p. 169). Note that 'paapentassa' is a gloss
        for 'bhaavayato' at Ps III 140 (also note 'bhaaventassa'
        for 'bhaavayato' at Pa.tis-a II 468). I think it is more likely here
        to be in the genitive case "of (in reference to) the one developing"
        although instead of "of", "for" probably fits better.

        > --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom <nilo@e...> wrote:
        > > Nina: I found in Warder Ch 28, (p. 316): Denominative
        conjugation: Any root can be used as a verb by adding conjugational
        suffixes. W. says, noun stems can also be used as a verb.
        (dhaaturuupakasaddha). Here it comes: They are usually conjugated
        according to the seventh conjugation (substituting the suffix e/aya,
        or adding ya to the stem... Looking at the seventh conjugation: Ch 3:
        form present stems with the vowel e, or much less often with the
        fuller suffix aya, of which e is a contraction. And, ch 13: causative
        conjugation: frequently coincides with the seventh conjugation. Roots
        may appear in the causative meanings with the stem in e or a fuller
        form aya ...As in the seventh conjugation the rootvowel is usually
        strengthened or lengthened.
        > > You mentioned; bhaaveti to develop. I wonder whether this is
        O.K.: bhaavayato: by the development (cultivation) of.. We have the
        ablative suffix -to, and the causative stem bhaavaya (from bhaave).
        The P.t.S. just translates: <For, from the developing the development
        of...>
      • Ong Yong Peng
        Dear Nina, Jim and friends, thanks, this is real tough. pathaviisama~nhi te, raahula, bhaavana.m bhaavayato Here, te ins./gen./dat. of tumha , you 1. Is
        Message 3 of 30 , May 2, 2003
          Dear Nina, Jim and friends,

          thanks, this is real tough.

          pathaviisama~nhi te, raahula, bhaavana.m bhaavayato

          Here, 'te' ins./gen./dat. of 'tumha', you

          1. Is pathaviisama~nhi=pathaviisama.m+hi : for earthlike?

          2. Can 'bhaaveti' be written as 'bhaavayati'?

          3. Is 'bhaavayato' a noun or a verb?

          metta,
          Yong Peng


          --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Jim Anderson wrote:
          > I believe that 'bhaavayato' is a present participle derived from a
          causative stem with either the dative or genitive (6th case) singular
          ending (see Warder p. 169). Note that 'paapentassa' is a gloss
          for 'bhaavayato' at Ps III 140 (also note 'bhaaventassa'
          for 'bhaavayato' at Pa.tis-a II 468). I think it is more likely here
          to be in the genitive case "of (in reference to) the one developing"
          although instead of "of", "for" probably fits better.

          > --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom <nilo@e...> wrote:
          > > Nina: I found in Warder Ch 28, (p. 316): Denominative
          conjugation: Any root can be used as a verb by adding conjugational
          suffixes. W. says, noun stems can also be used as a verb.
          (dhaaturuupakasaddha). Here it comes: They are usually conjugated
          according to the seventh conjugation (substituting the suffix e/aya,
          or adding ya to the stem... Looking at the seventh conjugation: Ch 3:
          form present stems with the vowel e, or much less often with the
          fuller suffix aya, of which e is a contraction. And, ch 13: causative
          conjugation: frequently coincides with the seventh conjugation. Roots
          may appear in the causative meanings with the stem in e or a fuller
          form aya ...As in the seventh conjugation the rootvowel is usually
          strengthened or lengthened.
          > > You mentioned; bhaaveti to develop. I wonder whether this is
          O.K.: bhaavayato: by the development (cultivation) of.. We have the
          ablative suffix -to, and the causative stem bhaavaya (from bhaave).
          The P.t.S. just translates: <For, from the developing the development
          of...>
        • Ong Yong Peng
          Dear Nina, Jim and friends, allow me to ask another question: 4. Is bhaavayato derived from bhaava or bhaaveti ? I have tried working on both as
          Message 4 of 30 , May 2, 2003
            Dear Nina, Jim and friends,

            allow me to ask another question:

            4. Is 'bhaavayato' derived from 'bhaava' or 'bhaaveti'? I have tried
            working on both as suggested, but still can't get to 'bhaavayato'.

            metta,
            Yong Peng

            --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Ong Yong Peng wrote:
            > pathaviisama~nhi te, raahula, bhaavana.m bhaavayato
            >
            > Here, 'te' ins./gen./dat. of 'tumha', you
            >
            > 1. Is pathaviisama~nhi=pathaviisama.m+hi : for earthlike?
            >
            > 2. Can 'bhaaveti' be written as 'bhaavayati'?
            >
            > 3. Is 'bhaavayato' a noun or a verb?
          • nina van gorkom
            Dear Jim, This is wonderful, thank you very much. I had thought of this possibility of a present participle, but then had doubts, I did not think of the
            Message 5 of 30 , May 2, 2003
              Dear Jim,
              This is wonderful, thank you very much.
              I had thought of this possibility of a present participle, but then had
              doubts, I did not think of the causative bhaaveti. But now it is clear if we
              think of the causative: for someone who develops (cultivates, makes become).
              If I have got it right now: aya is derived from the e form. And this is
              interesting: Buddhadatta's dict. gives the variant on -maana as :
              bhaavayamaana (from bhaaveti).
              And the references form the Pa.tis-a are most helpful. Also in the Subco to
              this passage I find:paapento. The subco refers to vipassanaa and I shall
              translate this part of the subco next to the commentary.
              sammaa akkhaataani: From now on I shall be more careful with that inserted
              d, it is tricky. Thus, well declared.
              This is most helpful and inspiring, and thank you again,
              Nina.
              op 02-05-2003 04:10 schreef Jim Anderson op jimanderson_on@...:
              >
              > I believe that 'bhaavayato' is a present participle derived from a
              > causative stem with either the dative or genitive (6th case) singular
              > ending (see Warder p. 169). Note that 'paapentassa' is a gloss
              > for 'bhaavayato' at Ps III 140 (also note 'bhaaventassa'
              > for 'bhaavayato' at Pa.tis-a II 468). I think it is more likely here
              > to be in the genitive case "of (in reference to) the one developing"
              > although instead of "of", "for" probably fits better.
              >
              > A while ago I saw that you and John K. were trying to figure
              > out "sammadakkhaataani" (samma-d-akkhaataani) but not sure if it was
              > ever solved satisfactorily. It is equivalent to "sammaa akkhaataani".
              > It is due to sandhi that the 'd' is inserted and the long 'a'
              > of 'sammaa' is shortened. The 'd' is technically called an augment
              > (aagama) which is also seen in 'sammadeva' (samma-d-eva). Other
              > letters are used in the same way for different combinations, eg.
              > yatha-y-ida.m. Several sandhi rules on this can be found in the
              > Saddaniiti (sandhikappo).
            • nina van gorkom
              Dear Yong Peng, op 02-05-2003 11:26 schreef Ong Yong Peng op ypong001@yahoo.com: N: pathaviisama~nhi te, raahula, bhaavana.m bhaavayato ... For you (te,
              Message 6 of 30 , May 2, 2003
                Dear Yong Peng,
                op 02-05-2003 11:26 schreef Ong Yong Peng op ypong001@...:

                N: pathaviisama~nhi te, raahula, bhaavana.m bhaavayato
                >pathaviisama~nhi te, raahula, bhaavana.m bhaavayato
                For you (te, dative) , Rahula, who is developing (bhaavayato, from bhaveti,
                present participle and also dative), the development (bhaavana.m) that is
                like the earth (pathaviisama ~nhi), agreeable and disagreeable, etc.

                Y: Here, 'te' ins./gen./dat. of 'tumha', you
                N: for you
                > 1. Is pathaviisama~nhi=pathaviisama.m+hi : for earthlike?
                N: I did not translate the word hi: points to what follows?
                Y: 2. Can 'bhaaveti' be written as 'bhaavayati'?
                N: Especially in the present participium. And here bhaavayato is gen. or
                dative, but in the transl here it can be said: for. (for you who)
                Y: 3. Is 'bhaavayato' a noun or a verb?
                N: It is present participle, and here in the dative .
                Nina.
              • Ong Yong Peng
                Dear Nina, Jim and friends, thanks. I look at Charles Duroiselle s A Practical Grammar of the Pali Language and got this from Chapter 10: root: bhuu, to be
                Message 7 of 30 , May 2, 2003
                  Dear Nina, Jim and friends,

                  thanks. I look at Charles Duroiselle's A Practical Grammar of the
                  Pali Language and got this from Chapter 10:

                  root: bhuu, to be
                  (492) causative: bhaave, bhaavaya
                  (496) causative base/stem: bhaaveti, to cultivate, practise
                  (441) present participle: bhaaventa, bhaavaya.m, bhaavayanta,
                  bhaavayamaana.

                  Let us choose bhaavaya.m, cultivating, practising.

                  "te bhaavayato"

                  te = dative of tumha, for you

                  then, 'bhaavayato' is 'bhaavaya.m' declined to 'te' which is dative,
                  singular, masculine(?).

                  I take it that 'bhaavaya.m' is declined similarly to araha.m [see
                  Duroiselle Chpt.5 (167)]

                  Araha.m > Dat. Sing. > Arahato

                  Thus,
                  bhaavaya.m > Dat. Sing. > bhaavayato

                  Please correct me if I am wrong.


                  metta,
                  Yong Peng


                  --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote:
                  > N: pathaviisama~nhi te, raahula, bhaavana.m bhaavayato
                  > >pathaviisama~nhi te, raahula, bhaavana.m bhaavayato
                  > For you (te, dative) , Rahula, who is developing (bhaavayato, from
                  bhaveti, present participle and also dative), the development
                  (bhaavana.m) that is like the earth (pathaviisama ~nhi), agreeable
                  and disagreeable, etc.
                  >
                  > Y: 2. Can 'bhaaveti' be written as 'bhaavayati'?
                  > N: Especially in the present participium. And here bhaavayato is
                  gen. or dative, but in the transl here it can be said: for. (for you
                  who)
                  >
                  > Y: 3. Is 'bhaavayato' a noun or a verb?
                  > N: It is present participle, and here in the dative .
                • Ong Yong Peng
                  Dear Nina, Jim and friends, I notice that Duoiselle Chpt.5 §166 has declension of bhava.m, so should bhaavaya.m be declined according to bhava.m or araha.m?
                  Message 8 of 30 , May 2, 2003
                    Dear Nina, Jim and friends,

                    I notice that Duoiselle Chpt.5 §166 has declension of bhava.m, so
                    should bhaavaya.m be declined according to bhava.m or araha.m? Thanks.

                    metta,
                    Yong Peng

                    --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Ong Yong Peng wrote:
                    I take it that 'bhaavaya.m' is declined similarly to araha.m [see
                    Duroiselle Chpt.5 (167)]
                    >
                    > Araha.m > Dat. Sing. > Arahato
                    >
                    > Thus,
                    > bhaavaya.m > Dat. Sing. > bhaavayato
                  • Jim Anderson
                    Dear Nina and Yong Peng, You ve both gotten away ahead of me on this thread. Although I consider bhaavayato to be a present participle, I pointed this out at
                    Message 9 of 30 , May 3, 2003
                      Dear Nina and Yong Peng,

                      You've both gotten away ahead of me on this thread. Although I
                      consider "bhaavayato" to be a present participle, I pointed this out
                      at a time when I still had yet to consider it carefully in the context
                      of the passage. I have since done some of that and I agree that "te"
                      belongs with "bhaavayato" and that both are in the same case and
                      number. However, I question that they are in the dative case. Could
                      this not be a genitive absolute construction as described by Warder,
                      p. 58 or Duroiselle, no. 603?

                      pathaviisama~nhi te, raahula, bhaavana.m bhaavayato, . . . -- M I 423

                      For while (or when, as) you, Rahula, are developing the development
                      that is like the earth, . . .

                      I'm not too clear on a number of parts in the sentence. I find
                      'develeping the development' awkward in English. Also, the placement
                      of the 'na' before 'pariyaadaaya' instead of before '.thassanti' seems
                      unusual to me.

                      Best wishes,

                      Jim

                      --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote:
                      > N: pathaviisama~nhi te, raahula, bhaavana.m bhaavayato
                      > >pathaviisama~nhi te, raahula, bhaavana.m bhaavayato
                      > For you (te, dative) , Rahula, who is developing (bhaavayato, from
                      bhaveti, present participle and also dative), the development
                      (bhaavana.m) that is like the earth (pathaviisama ~nhi), agreeable
                      and disagreeable, etc.
                      >
                    • Ong Yong Peng
                      Dear Nina, Jim and friends, Jim, you are probably right. If only others can also throw a light into this. Technically, if te is genitive, and since
                      Message 10 of 30 , May 3, 2003
                        Dear Nina, Jim and friends,

                        Jim, you are probably right. If only others can also throw a light
                        into this.

                        Technically, if 'te' is genitive, and since 'bhaavayato' present
                        participle, then "te bhaavayato" is <quote Warder page 58> a
                        construction called the "genitive absolute" consists of a noun
                        followed by a participle, both inflected in the genitive <end quote>.

                        In that case, "te bhaavayato" becomes "as/while you are
                        cultivating/developing/practising".

                        Here is the abstract from the suttas provided by Dimitry at the
                        beginning of the project:

                        "Pathaviisama.m, Raahula, bhaavana.m bhaavehi. Pathaviisama~nhi te,
                        Raahula, bhaavana.m bhaavayato uppannaa manaapaamanaapaa phassaa
                        citta.m na pariyaadaaya .thassanti.

                        (a) Ven. Anzan Hoshin sensei and Tory Cox
                        Practise like the earth, Rahula. If you become like the earth then
                        the sensations which arise, whether pleasant or unpleasant, do not
                        take hold of the mind, nor do they establish themselves.

                        (b)
                        Rahula, develop a mind similar to earth, when you develop a mind
                        similar to earth arisen contacts of like and dislike do not take hold
                        of your mind and stay.

                        I have tried to redo it again:

                        According to PED:
                        bhaavanna=producing, dwelling on something, putting one's thoughts
                        to, application, developing by means of thought or meditation,
                        cultivation by mind, culture.

                        "Rahula, cultivate the mental quality that is like the earth. Rahula,
                        while you are cultivating the mental quality that is like the earth,
                        pleasant and unpleasant impressions that have arisen will not
                        overwhelm the mind and persist.

                        Please correct me if I am wrong.


                        metta,
                        Yong Peng

                        --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Jim Anderson wrote:
                        You've both gotten away ahead of me on this thread. Although I
                        consider "bhaavayato" to be a present participle, I pointed this out
                        at a time when I still had yet to consider it carefully in the
                        context of the passage. I have since done some of that and I agree
                        that "te" belongs with "bhaavayato" and that both are in the same
                        case and number. However, I question that they are in the dative
                        case. Could this not be a genitive absolute construction as described
                        by Warder, p. 58 or Duroiselle, no. 603?
                        >
                        pathaviisama~nhi te, raahula, bhaavana.m bhaavayato, . . . -- M I 423
                        >
                        For while (or when, as) you, Rahula, are developing the development
                        that is like the earth, . . .
                        >
                        I'm not too clear on a number of parts in the sentence. I
                        find 'develeping the development' awkward in English. Also, the
                        placement of the 'na' before 'pariyaadaaya' instead of
                        before '.thassanti' seems unusual to me.
                        >
                        > --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote:
                        > > N: pathaviisama~nhi te, raahula, bhaavana.m bhaavayato
                        > > >pathaviisama~nhi te, raahula, bhaavana.m bhaavayato
                        > > For you (te, dative) , Rahula, who is developing (bhaavayato, from
                        > bhaveti, present participle and also dative), the development
                        > (bhaavana.m) that is like the earth (pathaviisama ~nhi), agreeable
                        > and disagreeable, etc.
                      • Ong Yong Peng
                        Dear Nina, Jim and friends, allow me to add that, I have taken Pathaviisama~nhi te bhaavana.m bhaavayato te pathaviisama~nhi bhaavana.m bhaavayato te
                        Message 11 of 30 , May 3, 2003
                          Dear Nina, Jim and friends,

                          allow me to add that, I have taken "Pathaviisama~nhi te bhaavana.m
                          bhaavayato" >> "te pathaviisama~nhi bhaavana.m bhaavayato"

                          te bhaavayato = while/as you are developing
                          pathaviisama~nhi bhaavana.m = development of the mind to be like the
                          earth??? If the enclitic 'hi' for 'pathaviisama~nhi' can be fully
                          understood, we could render a better sentence in English.

                          Please correct me if I am wrong.

                          metta,
                          Yong Peng

                          --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Ong Yong Peng wrote:
                          "Pathaviisama.m, Raahula, bhaavana.m bhaavehi. Pathaviisama~nhi te,
                          Raahula, bhaavana.m bhaavayato uppannaa manaapaamanaapaa phassaa
                          citta.m na pariyaadaaya .thassanti.
                          >
                          I have tried to redo it again:
                          >
                          According to PED:
                          bhaavanna=producing, dwelling on something, putting one's thoughts
                          to, application, developing by means of thought or meditation,
                          cultivation by mind, culture.
                          >
                          "Rahula, cultivate the mental quality that is like the earth. Rahula,
                          while you are cultivating the mental quality that is like the earth,
                          pleasant and unpleasant impressions that have arisen will not
                          overwhelm the mind and persist.
                        • nina van gorkom
                          Dear Jim and all, op 03-05-2003 17:48 schreef Jim Anderson op jimanderson_on@yahoo.ca: Could ... N: I think it is likely, because the sentence has more than
                          Message 12 of 30 , May 4, 2003
                            Dear Jim and all,
                            op 03-05-2003 17:48 schreef Jim Anderson op jimanderson_on@...:
                            Could
                            > this not be a genitive absolute construction as described by Warder,
                            > p. 58 or Duroiselle, no. 603?
                            >
                            > pathaviisama~nhi te, raahula, bhaavana.m bhaavayato, . . . -- M I 423
                            >
                            > For while (or when, as) you, Rahula, are developing the development
                            > that is like the earth, . . .
                            N: I think it is likely, because the sentence has more than one agent. the
                            other being: the impressions, etc. phassaa.
                            J: I'm not too clear on a number of parts in the sentence. I find
                            > 'develeping the development' awkward in English. Also, the placement
                            > of the 'na' before 'pariyaadaaya' instead of before '.thassanti' seems
                            > unusual to me.
                            N: I think na is for both. I compared the Co:
                            <citta.m na pariyaadaaya .thassantiiti ete phassaa uppajjitvaa
                            As to the words, they do not overcome the mind and persist, this means,
                            after these impressions have arisen,
                            tava citta.m antomu.t.thigata.m karonto viya
                            while the mind just makes as it were a clenched fist >
                            I compared with the Thai, and avoiding the awkward: having not overcome..
                            they do not persist, the Thai uses:they do not overcome the mind, but here
                            is not translated: and do not persist, .thassanti.
                            And there is also this in the Co:
                            pariyaadaaya gahetvaa .thaatu.m na sakkhissanti,
                            here we have gahetvaa and then at end: na sakkhissanti. I take the
                            gahetvaa: after (the mind) has seized them... ??they do not remain. In the
                            subco: this adds :pariggahetvaa, as a gloss to gahetvaa:
                            <gahetvaati kusalappavattiyaa okaasadaanavasena pariggahetvaa.
                            As to the words, having taken hold of, because of the opportunity given for
                            a skilful life, after he has comprehended. >
                            This is difficult for me. What is the gahetvaa, who is doing it.
                            Earlier in the Co. it was stated; Rahula had to develop vipassana pa~n~naa.
                            The meaning is just as in the Elephant's Footprint Discourse, where the
                            monk, after he has learnt the elements, is not disturbed by painful bodily
                            impressions nor by harsh words.
                            By the way if you have time, I stared so long on tava (in the Co.), va is:
                            just, only, indeed, but the ta: ta.m? Because indeed, or because just?
                            Thank you,
                            Nina.
                          • nina van gorkom
                            Dear Yong Peng, ... N:Now Jim just suggested it to be genitive absolute: when you, Rahula, are cultivating (applying yourself to) the development that is like
                            Message 13 of 30 , May 4, 2003
                              Dear Yong Peng,
                              op 03-05-2003 02:02 schreef Ong Yong Peng op ypong001@...:

                              > thanks. I look at Charles Duroiselle's A Practical Grammar of the
                              > Pali Language and got this from Chapter 10:
                              >
                              > root: bhuu, to be
                              > (492) causative: bhaave, bhaavaya
                              > (496) causative base/stem: bhaaveti, to cultivate, practise
                              > (441) present participle: bhaaventa, bhaavaya.m, bhaavayanta,
                              > bhaavayamaana.
                              >
                              > Let us choose bhaavaya.m, cultivating, practising.
                              >
                              > "te bhaavayato"
                              >
                              > te = dative of tumha, for you
                              >
                              > then, 'bhaavayato' is 'bhaavaya.m' declined to 'te' which is dative,
                              > singular, masculine(?).
                              N:Now Jim just suggested it to be genitive absolute: when you, Rahula, are
                              cultivating (applying yourself to) the development that is like the earth...
                              What do you think of it?
                              Y: I take it that 'bhaavaya.m' is declined similarly to araha.m [see
                              > Duroiselle Chpt.5 (167)]
                              > Araha.m > Dat. Sing. > Arahato
                              > Thus,
                              > bhaavaya.m > Dat. Sing. > bhaavayato
                              N: I am afraid to say so, because then we are comparing a noun with a verb
                              form, the present participle.
                              Nina.
                              >
                            • nina van gorkom
                              Dear Yong Peng, Suggestions below seem good, it is a matter of choice now about deciding what is best in English. Nina.
                              Message 14 of 30 , May 4, 2003
                                Dear Yong Peng,
                                Suggestions below seem good, it is a matter of choice now about deciding
                                what is best in English.
                                Nina.
                                op 04-05-2003 00:18 schreef Ong Yong Peng op ypong001@...:


                                > Technically, if 'te' is genitive, and since 'bhaavayato' present
                                > participle, then "te bhaavayato" is <quote Warder page 58> a
                                > construction called the "genitive absolute" consists of a noun
                                > followed by a participle, both inflected in the genitive <end quote>.
                                >
                                > In that case, "te bhaavayato" becomes "as/while you are
                                > cultivating/developing/practising".
                                >
                                > Here is the abstract from the suttas provided by Dimitry at the
                                > beginning of the project:
                                >
                                > "Pathaviisama.m, Raahula, bhaavana.m bhaavehi. Pathaviisama~nhi te,
                                > Raahula, bhaavana.m bhaavayato uppannaa manaapaamanaapaa phassaa
                                > citta.m na pariyaadaaya .thassanti.
                                >
                                > (a) Ven. Anzan Hoshin sensei and Tory Cox
                                > Practise like the earth, Rahula. If you become like the earth then
                                > the sensations which arise, whether pleasant or unpleasant, do not
                                > take hold of the mind, nor do they establish themselves.
                                >
                                > (b)
                                > Rahula, develop a mind similar to earth, when you develop a mind
                                > similar to earth arisen contacts of like and dislike do not take hold
                                > of your mind and stay.
                                >
                                > I have tried to redo it again:
                                >
                                > According to PED:
                                > bhaavanna=producing, dwelling on something, putting one's thoughts
                                > to, application, developing by means of thought or meditation,
                                > cultivation by mind, culture.
                                >
                                > "Rahula, cultivate the mental quality that is like the earth. Rahula,
                                > while you are cultivating the mental quality that is like the earth,
                                > pleasant and unpleasant impressions that have arisen will not
                                > overwhelm the mind and persist.
                                >
                                >
                              • Ong Yong Peng
                                Dear Nina and friends, sorry for any confusion. Perhaps I should say that bhaavaya.m takes the declension of adjectives ending in -vantu and -mantu? Kindly
                                Message 15 of 30 , May 5, 2003
                                  Dear Nina and friends,

                                  sorry for any confusion. Perhaps I should say that bhaavaya.m takes
                                  the declension of adjectives ending in -vantu and -mantu? Kindly
                                  enlighten me. Thanks.

                                  metta,
                                  Yong Peng

                                  --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote:
                                  > "te bhaavayato"
                                  >
                                  > te = dative of tumha, for you
                                  >
                                  > then, 'bhaavayato' is 'bhaavaya.m' declined to 'te' which is
                                  dative, singular, masculine(?).
                                  > > Y: I take it that 'bhaavaya.m' is declined similarly to araha.m
                                  [see Duroiselle Chpt.5 (167)]
                                  Araha.m > Dat. Sing. > Arahato
                                  Thus,
                                  bhaavaya.m > Dat. Sing. > bhaavayato
                                  > N: I am afraid to say so, because then we are comparing a noun
                                  with a verb form, the present participle.
                                • Jim Anderson
                                  Dear Nina, ... Warder, ... 423 ... development ... agent. the ... Offlist, Teng Kee has raised an interesting point about the correct usage of the genitive
                                  Message 16 of 30 , May 5, 2003
                                    Dear Nina,

                                    > Dear Jim and all,
                                    > op 03-05-2003 17:48 schreef Jim Anderson op jimanderson_on@...:
                                    > Could
                                    > > this not be a genitive absolute construction as described by
                                    Warder,
                                    > > p. 58 or Duroiselle, no. 603?
                                    > >
                                    > > pathaviisama~nhi te, raahula, bhaavana.m bhaavayato, . . . -- M I
                                    423
                                    > >
                                    > > For while (or when, as) you, Rahula, are developing the
                                    development
                                    > > that is like the earth, . . .
                                    > N: I think it is likely, because the sentence has more than one
                                    agent. the
                                    > other being: the impressions, etc. phassaa.

                                    Offlist, Teng Kee has raised an interesting point about the correct
                                    usage of the genitive absolute in the sense of disregard (anaadara)
                                    "in spite of, despite" according to the native grammars. Warder also
                                    discusses this sense but he and others seem to think that the gen.
                                    abs. can be used a little more liberally. I'm not sure. For what it's
                                    worth, the following is my response to Teng Kee:

                                    << Warder does mention this usage (anaadaramhi ca. -- Sadd §633) on
                                    p.58 as follows:

                                    << Often the genitive absolute has the special sense of disregarding:
                                    "despite (the noun doing the participle)." >>

                                    I think that strictly speaking in accordance with the native grammars
                                    this may be the only usage allowed which can also be used in the
                                    locative absolute. It seems possible to translate the sutta passage in
                                    the 'anaadara' sense which would go like:

                                    For, Rahula, in spite of you developing the development that is like
                                    the earth; without (you) having fully grasped (your) mind, the
                                    impressions that arise, agreeable or disagreeable, will persist.

                                    But this may not fit in too well in the context of the rest of the
                                    paragraph. >>

                                    > J: I'm not too clear on a number of parts in the sentence. I find
                                    > > 'develeping the development' awkward in English. Also, the
                                    placement
                                    > > of the 'na' before 'pariyaadaaya' instead of before '.thassanti'
                                    seems
                                    > > unusual to me.
                                    > N: I think na is for both. I compared the Co:
                                    > <citta.m na pariyaadaaya .thassantiiti ete phassaa uppajjitvaa
                                    > As to the words, they do not overcome the mind and persist, this
                                    means,
                                    > after these impressions have arisen,
                                    > tava citta.m antomu.t.thigata.m karonto viya
                                    > while the mind just makes as it were a clenched fist >
                                    > I compared with the Thai, and avoiding the awkward: having not
                                    overcome..
                                    > they do not persist, the Thai uses:they do not overcome the mind,
                                    but here
                                    > is not translated: and do not persist, .thassanti.
                                    > And there is also this in the Co:
                                    > pariyaadaaya gahetvaa .thaatu.m na sakkhissanti,

                                    I'm inclined to think that the 'na' in the sutta passage is intended
                                    for 'pariyaadaaya' only. I think if both were negated it would have
                                    been written like 'apariyaadaaya na .thassanti'. Note that in the cty.
                                    there is no 'na' preceding 'pariyaadaaya' as is the case in the sutta.
                                    I have checked three versions of the same cty. passage and all are the
                                    same in this respect. I'm not sure why this is so. One possibility
                                    could be that the cty. is explaining in opposite terms for what would
                                    occur if the citta were fully grasped.

                                    > here we have gahetvaa and then at end: na sakkhissanti. I take the
                                    > gahetvaa: after (the mind) has seized them... ??they do not remain.
                                    In the
                                    > subco: this adds :pariggahetvaa, as a gloss to gahetvaa:
                                    > <gahetvaati kusalappavattiyaa okaasadaanavasena pariggahetvaa.
                                    > As to the words, having taken hold of, because of the opportunity
                                    given for
                                    > a skilful life, after he has comprehended. >
                                    > This is difficult for me. What is the gahetvaa, who is doing it.

                                    It is difficult for me too. I'm not yet sure who or what is grasping
                                    the mind. It seems that it would either have to be the impressions or
                                    Rahula. It's certainly not at all clear.

                                    > Earlier in the Co. it was stated; Rahula had to develop vipassana
                                    pa~n~naa.
                                    > The meaning is just as in the Elephant's Footprint Discourse, where
                                    the
                                    > monk, after he has learnt the elements, is not disturbed by painful
                                    bodily
                                    > impressions nor by harsh words.
                                    > By the way if you have time, I stared so long on tava (in the Co.),
                                    va is:
                                    > just, only, indeed, but the ta: ta.m? Because indeed, or because
                                    just?

                                    'tava' (also 'tuyha.m') like 'te' is the genitive (or dative) singular
                                    of 'tva.m', so 'tava citta.m' = your mind or thought.

                                    Best wishes,

                                    Jim
                                  • nina van gorkom
                                    Dear Yong Peng, ... Perhaps I should say that bhaavaya.m takes ... N: I think as gaccha.m or gacchanto, Warder Ch 21, and also: Ch 13: as causative: kaarento,
                                    Message 17 of 30 , May 6, 2003
                                      Dear Yong Peng,
                                      op 05-05-2003 12:21 schreef Ong Yong Peng op ypong001@...:
                                      >
                                      Perhaps I should say that bhaavaya.m takes
                                      > the declension of adjectives ending in -vantu and -mantu? Kindly
                                      > enlighten me.
                                      N: I think as gaccha.m or gacchanto, Warder Ch 21,
                                      and also: Ch 13: as causative: kaarento, kaarayato.
                                      -vantu and -mantu seems a different matter.
                                      Nina.
                                    • nina van gorkom
                                      Dear Jim, Thank you very much. It is well worth considering. Thank you for the tava, from tvam By the way, it is helpful if Teng Kee would let us share his
                                      Message 18 of 30 , May 6, 2003
                                        Dear Jim,
                                        Thank you very much. It is well worth considering.
                                        Thank you for the tava, from tvam
                                        By the way, it is helpful if Teng Kee would let us share his observations on
                                        the list, I would like to follow such discussions, interesting and useful
                                        for all of us here.
                                        op 06-05-2003 01:54 schreef Jim Anderson op jimanderson_on@...:
                                        >
                                        > << Often the genitive absolute has the special sense of disregarding:
                                        > "despite (the noun doing the participle)." >>
                                        >
                                        > I think that strictly speaking in accordance with the native grammars
                                        > this may be the only usage allowed which can also be used in the
                                        > locative absolute. It seems possible to translate the sutta passage in
                                        > the 'anaadara' sense which would go like:
                                        >
                                        > For, Rahula, in spite of you developing the development that is like
                                        > the earth; without (you) having fully grasped (your) mind, the
                                        > impressions that arise, agreeable or disagreeable, will persist.
                                        >
                                        > But this may not fit in too well in the context of the rest of the
                                        > paragraph. >>
                                        N: alternatives:this is the old one: A:
                                        pathaviisama~nhi te, raahula, bhaavana.m bhaavayato

                                        For when you apply yourself to the mental development that is like the
                                        earth, Rahula,

                                        uppannaa manaapaamanaapaa phassaa citta.m na pariyaadaaya .thassanti.

                                        agreeable and disagreeable impressions that have arisen, will not overwhelm
                                        the mind and persist.
                                        The alternative:B:
                                        I looked again at pariyaadaaya: pariyaadati: put an end to, master,
                                        destroy.
                                        PED: SIII, 155: it is said of raaga.m. To master attachment.

                                        For while you apply yourself to the mental development that is like the
                                        earth, Rahula, and you do not control the mind, agreeable and disagreeable
                                        impressions that have arisen will stay.

                                        Now comparing with Co and Subco:
                                        Co: citta.m na pariyaadaaya .thassantiiti ete phassaa uppajjitvaa
                                        With reference to the words, when you do not control your mind: this means,
                                        after these impressions have arisen,

                                        tava citta.m antomu.t.thigata.m karonto viya
                                        and your mind makes just as it were a clenched fist,

                                        pariyaadaaya gahetvaa .thaatu.m na sakkhissanti,
                                        and it has controlled and mastered them, they cannot stay.
                                        The Subco:
                                        gahetvaati kusalappavattiyaa okaasadaanavasena pariggahetvaa.

                                        As to the words, after it (the mind) has taken hold of them (mastered them),
                                        afterit has comprehended them, because of the opportunity that was given for
                                        a skilful course of action.
                                        Conclusion: pariyaadaaya, gahetvaa and pariggahetvaa: they seem more or less
                                        synonyms for mind control. The citta is doing this (of course not without
                                        the right condiitons: it is by vipassana). If this does not happen, those
                                        impressions remain.
                                        This is as far as I have got. With B the Co and subco seems to agree more.
                                        We shall have to make a choice between alternatives A and B, or is there a
                                        C?
                                        Nina.
                                        >
                                      • Ong Yong Peng
                                        Dear Nina and friends, thanks, Nina. As my exams are just a few weeks away, perhaps my brain is not working well on Pali. May I suggest that we take a break
                                        Message 19 of 30 , May 6, 2003
                                          Dear Nina and friends,

                                          thanks, Nina. As my exams are just a few weeks away, perhaps my brain
                                          is not working well on Pali. May I suggest that we take a break for
                                          now, and resume after 24 June. My exams starts on 10 June.

                                          metta,
                                          Yong Peng

                                          --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote:
                                          > Perhaps I should say that bhaavaya.m takes
                                          > > the declension of adjectives ending in -vantu and -mantu? Kindly
                                          > > enlighten me.
                                          > N: I think as gaccha.m or gacchanto, Warder Ch 21,
                                          > and also: Ch 13: as causative: kaarento, kaarayato.
                                          > -vantu and -mantu seems a different matter.
                                        • Jim Anderson
                                          Dear Nina, Thanks for all the hard work you ve put into this so far. I think it s going to be rather difficult to come to a clear understanding of this
                                          Message 20 of 30 , May 6, 2003
                                            Dear Nina,

                                            Thanks for all the hard work you've put into this so far. I think it's
                                            going to be rather difficult to come to a clear understanding of this
                                            sentence any time soon. It just seems that the more we delve into it,
                                            the more confusing and unclear it becomes, at least for me. Often it
                                            becomes necessary to undertake a lot of research (in tens of hours) to
                                            get just a slightly better understanding of a word or a phrase here
                                            and there. When I came forward to offer some help in identifying
                                            'bhaavayato' as a pres. participle, it wasn't my intention to get too
                                            involved as I have been rather busy lately with other projects of my
                                            own which I would like to get back to soon.

                                            I thought that in order to get a better understanding of "citta.m na
                                            pariyaadaaya .thassanti" it might be wise to study this or other
                                            similar phrases in the context of other suttas along with their
                                            commentaries. I did a search on the CSCD for the word 'pariyaadaaya'
                                            which frequently goes with 'citta.m' and the results were that it
                                            occurs in the Suttantapi.taka 189 times and in the Majjhimanikaaya 62
                                            times. There could be more in the peyyala passages. A good place to
                                            start might be at M I 91 or 239-240 which I think will shed some more
                                            light. It appears that if one goes by the passage at M I 91 the
                                            'impressions' is the agent of 'pariyaadaaya' with 'citta.m' as the
                                            patient. Also in looking at 'tassa' in the M I 239f passage without
                                            any accompanying pres. part. there is the suggestion that the genitive
                                            absolute may not be a correct interpretation of 'te . . . bhaavayato'
                                            in our sentence.

                                            Best wishes,

                                            Jim
                                          • nina van gorkom
                                            Dear Yong Peng, I sympathize with your exams and wish you every success. Of course these need your full attention. I hope you will tell us the outcome.
                                            Message 21 of 30 , May 7, 2003
                                              Dear Yong Peng,
                                              I sympathize with your exams and wish you every success. Of course these
                                              need your full attention. I hope you will tell us the outcome.
                                              Meanwhile, I shall keep on with the sutta text and commentaries. I shall
                                              come back June 25 on these texts, if I may. Then we can be at it again full
                                              force. Although you will have to prepare again for exams in October,
                                              November.
                                              These difficult sentences are repeated all the time in the sutta, and thus
                                              we have to arrive at a conclusion somehow.
                                              I shall be away (conditions permitting) May 10 until May 24.
                                              All the best,
                                              Nina.
                                              op 07-05-2003 02:34 schreef Ong Yong Peng op ypong001@...:
                                              May I suggest that we take a break for
                                              > now, and resume after 24 June. My exams starts on 10 June.
                                            • nina van gorkom
                                              Dear Jim, ... think will shed some more ... N: Thank you for your suggestions, I shall study these passages, I had not thought of this before, and I have the
                                              Message 22 of 30 , May 7, 2003
                                                Dear Jim,
                                                op 07-05-2003 04:29 schreef Jim Anderson op jimanderson_on@...:
                                                > I thought that in order to get a better understanding of "citta.m na
                                                > pariyaadaaya .thassanti" it might be wise to study this or other
                                                > similar phrases in the context of other suttas along with their
                                                > commentaries.A good place to start might be at M I 91 or 239-240 which I
                                                think will shed some more
                                                > light. It appears that if one goes by the passage at M I 91 the
                                                > 'impressions' is the agent of 'pariyaadaaya' with 'citta.m' as the
                                                > patient. Also in looking at 'tassa' in the M I 239f passage without
                                                > any accompanying pres. part. there is the suggestion that the genitive
                                                > absolute may not be a correct interpretation of 'te . . . bhaavayato'
                                                > in our sentence.
                                                N: Thank you for your suggestions, I shall study these passages, I had not
                                                thought of this before, and I have the relevant Pali texts. However, I do
                                                not have the means at my disposal as you have. I like the types of
                                                discussions on texts we just had, it is not confusing, just considering
                                                alternatives. I understand that it is time consuming for you, since you have
                                                other projects. Meanwhile, I cannot let go of texts, I will not give up. I
                                                am glad you have given some directions. It is great if you can come in
                                                sometimes, always inspiring.
                                                I do not expect that I can make a translation without mistakes, but I try
                                                the best I can. If I would be afraid, I would never make any translation and
                                                this goes also for my Commentary translations.
                                                Thank you very much for all the efforts you have put in,
                                                Nina.
                                              • Ong Yong Peng
                                                Dear Nina and friends, thanks very much. Thanks for your advise for Word-by-Word too. Have a happy holiday. metta, Yong Peng.
                                                Message 23 of 30 , May 8, 2003
                                                  Dear Nina and friends,

                                                  thanks very much. Thanks for your advise for Word-by-Word too. Have
                                                  a happy holiday.

                                                  metta,
                                                  Yong Peng.
                                                • Ong Yong Peng
                                                  Dear Nina and friends, here is the next paragraph from Maharahulovada Sutta. It follows very much what Nina has set out in the last paragraph. Please correct
                                                  Message 24 of 30 , Jul 13 5:39 AM
                                                    Dear Nina and friends,

                                                    here is the next paragraph from Maharahulovada Sutta. It follows very
                                                    much what Nina has set out in the last paragraph. Please correct me
                                                    if I am wrong.

                                                    "Aaposama.m, Raahula, bhaavana.m bhaavehi.
                                                    water-like / Rahula / mental development / cultivate
                                                    "Rahula, cultivate the mental development that is like the water.

                                                    aaposama (adj.) water-like.

                                                    Aaposama~nhi te, Raahula, bhaavana.m bhaavayato
                                                    water-like / for you / Rahula / mental development / is cultivating
                                                    Rahula, for you who are cultivating the mental development that is
                                                    like the water,

                                                    uppannaa manaapa-amanaapaa phassaa citta.m na pariyaadaaya .thassanti.
                                                    arisen / pleasant and unpleasant / impressions / mind / not / having
                                                    overcome / will persist
                                                    pleasant and unpleasant impressions that have arisen will not
                                                    persistently overwhelm the mind.

                                                    Seyyathaapi, Raahula, aapasmi.m sucimpi dhovanti, asucimpi dhovanti,
                                                    just as / Rahula / in water / also clean thing / (they) wash / also
                                                    dirty thing / wash
                                                    Rahula, just as (people) wash in the water what is clean and what is
                                                    dirty

                                                    dhovati (v.) washes.

                                                    guuthagatampi dhovanti, muttagatampi dhovanti, khe.lagatampi
                                                    dhovanti, pubbagatampi dhovanti, lohitagatampi dhovanti,
                                                    also faeces / wash / also urine / wash / also spittle / wash / also
                                                    pus / wash / also blood / wash
                                                    -- faeces, urine, spittle, pus and blood,

                                                    na ca tena aapo a.t.tiiyati vaa haraayati vaa jigucchati vaa;
                                                    not / and yet / because of it / water / is afflicted / or / is
                                                    vexed / or / is disgusted / or
                                                    and yet the water is not afflicted, vexed or disgusted because of it.

                                                    evameva kho tva.m, Raahula, aaposama.m bhaavana.m bhaavehi.
                                                    likewise / indeed / you / Rahula / water-like / mental development /
                                                    cultivate
                                                    Likewise, Rahula, you should cultivate the mental development that is
                                                    like the water.

                                                    Aaposama~nhi te, Raahula, bhaavana.m bhaavayato uppannaa manaapa-
                                                    amanaapaa phassaa citta.m na pariyaadaaya .thassanti.
                                                    water-like / for you / Rahula / mental development / is cultivating /
                                                    arisen / pleasant and unpleasant / impressions / mind / not / having
                                                    overcome / will persist
                                                    Rahula, for you who are cultivating the mental development that is
                                                    like the water, pleasant and unpleasant impressions that have arisen
                                                    will not persistently overwhelm the mind.


                                                    metta,
                                                    Yong Peng
                                                  • nina van gorkom
                                                    Dear Yong Peng, I am hesitant about the use of the article before: water. Piya gave some tips about the use of the article. Is this better: like water, namely,
                                                    Message 25 of 30 , Jul 14 10:02 AM
                                                      Dear Yong Peng,
                                                      I am hesitant about the use of the article before: water. Piya gave some
                                                      tips about the use of the article. Is this better: like water, namely, water
                                                      in general? I am not sure. We also had: the earth. Is earth better?
                                                      PTS used: the earth, but water, fire and wind without articles. A question
                                                      of feeling how it sounds?
                                                      Nina.

                                                      op 13-07-2003 14:39 schreef Ong Yong Peng op ypong001@...:

                                                      > "Aaposama.m, Raahula, bhaavana.m bhaavehi.
                                                      > water-like / Rahula / mental development / cultivate
                                                      > "Rahula, cultivate the mental development that is like the water.
                                                    • Ong Yong Peng
                                                      Dear Nina and friends, thanks. I agree it is better not to have the article before water , since we are referring to a general body of water. Grammatically,
                                                      Message 26 of 30 , Jul 15 7:21 AM
                                                        Dear Nina and friends,

                                                        thanks. I agree it is better not to have the article before 'water',
                                                        since we are referring to a general body of water. Grammatically, it
                                                        is right, and I think it sounds great. :-)

                                                        metta,
                                                        Yong Peng

                                                        --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote:
                                                        I am hesitant about the use of the article before: water. Piya gave
                                                        some tips about the use of the article. Is this better: like water,
                                                        namely, water in general? I am not sure. We also had: the earth. Is
                                                        earth better?
                                                        PTS used: the earth, but water, fire and wind without articles. A
                                                        question of feeling how it sounds?
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