Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.
 

Re: [Pali] 4 jhanas - vitakka & vicara

Expand Messages
  • ������� ���������� ��������� (Dimitry A.
    Dear John, JK In a highly JK concentrated state, there doesn t seem to be a place JK for deliberation and reasoned reflection. I would translate vitakka
    Message 1 of 21 , Apr 3, 2003
      Dear John,

      JK> In a highly
      JK> concentrated state, there doesn't seem to be a place
      JK> for deliberation and reasoned reflection.

      I would translate "vitakka" and "vicara" as "reasoning" and "study".
      Vitakka shifts to the object with the help of the logical analysis of
      the designations, and vicara investigates the object on the basis of
      its concept. There's surely a place for those processes in the first
      jhana.

      The rendering 'applied and sustained thought' shows the consequential
      roles that vitakka and vicara play, yet it removes the exact meanings
      of these processes.

      Metta,
      Dimitry
    • Lars Siebold
      ... Hi Derek, That s about what I had in mind when I said subtle kind of thought . I have in no way anything to say about vitakka and vicara in the jhana (not
      Message 2 of 21 , Apr 4, 2003
        Derek Cameron wrote:
        > For me, Ajahn Brahmavamso puts it well:

        Hi Derek,

        That's about what I had in mind when I said "subtle kind of thought". I have
        in no way anything to say about vitakka and vicara in the jhana (not yet
        :-)). What I wanted to point out was, that also in Buddhist use it certainly
        has the meaning of "thought". Your post sounded like you said it wouldn't
        have that meaning in the Buddhas teaching at all. I hope I didn't
        missunderstand you there.

        Lars
      • nina van gorkom
        Hi Derek and all, op 03-04-2003 21:38 schreef Derek Cameron op derekacameron@yahoo.com:about vitakka and vicaara. N:You may find it helpful to read the
        Message 3 of 21 , Apr 5, 2003
          Hi Derek and all,

          op 03-04-2003 21:38 schreef Derek Cameron op derekacameron@...:about
          vitakka and vicaara.

          N:You may find it helpful to read the Visuddhimagga, Ch III and IV. It makes
          very good reading anyway.This part is on Rob K's web:
          http://www.abhidhamma.org/

          It is described that vitakka is still needed in the first jhana, it is
          accompanying the jhanacitta and it hits or strikes the meditation subject
          again and again. Vicara causes the citta to be occupied with the medtation
          subject. These two factors are among the jhanafactors which have to be
          cultivated and they perform their functions also in access concentration and
          in attainment concentration, when jhanacitta arises. Now here we should not
          think of <thinking> as we use the word in conventional language. When the
          yogaavacaara develops the meditation subject, for example a kasina, he has
          to look at it first, and then he acquirs a mental image. When calm is
          developed and he attains jhana he experiences the meditation subject with
          absorption. He does not think of the kasina, but the cetasikas vitakka and
          vicara that accompany the jhanacitta are performing their functions. In the
          second jhana (of the fourfold system) these factors are no longer needed in
          order to experience the meditation subject. There is a greater calm so that
          vitakka and vicara are abandoned. Also in samatha (not only in vipassana)
          great pa~n~naa is needed so that the different jhanafactors can be
          discerned. This is most difficult, because vitakka and vicara are very
          close.
          But, by the way, Derek, you know, I am missing your suttas. But I
          understand it if it is difficult to find time.
          Nina.
        • Derek Cameron
          Hi, Nina, ... That s an excellent way of putting it. ... Yes, it s fun doing a whole sutta provided it s of a reasonable length. Since I can t get to the
          Message 4 of 21 , Apr 5, 2003
            Hi, Nina,

            > Now here we should not
            > think of <thinking> as we use the word in conventional language.

            That's an excellent way of putting it.

            > But, by the way, Derek, you know, I am missing your suttas. But I
            > understand it if it is difficult to find time.

            Yes, it's fun doing a whole sutta provided it's of a reasonable
            length. Since I can't get to the internet as much as I used to, would
            you or anyone else like to start one?

            Derek.
          • nina van gorkom
            Dear Derek and Yong Peng, ... N: But I am not a webgoer either, and my Email crashes when people send me attachments, except Jim s texts. I am now thinking of
            Message 5 of 21 , Apr 6, 2003
              Dear Derek and Yong Peng,
              op 05-04-2003 20:27 schreef Derek Cameron op derekacameron@...:
              >
              > Yes, it's fun doing a whole sutta provided it's of a reasonable
              > length. Since I can't get to the internet as much as I used to, would
              > you or anyone else like to start one?
              N: But I am not a webgoer either, and my Email crashes when people send me
              attachments, except Jim's texts. I am now thinking of something else. I
              finished part of commentary to Mahaaraahulovaadasutta, but this is further
              on in the Sutta than the part of the sutta we had before, on the element of
              heat (fire). I like to coordinate with Yong Peng and decided to wait with my
              translation.
              I have the Pali sutta text on line (Jim gave it to me) and would like to ask
              Yong Peng whether I can bring it here, I mean, part by part. Perhaps first
              up to the element of air, later the element of space?
              I know that Yong Peng is so busy now, and can we perhaps help? I realize
              though that the three linear method also takes extra time. I wonder whether
              you could help here, bit by bit?
              Tomorrow I go away for three days, but I am interested to know what we can
              do after I come back.
              Nina.
            • Ong Yong Peng
              Dear Nina, Derek and friends, Yes, I would be very glad if more people join in the translation of Maharahulovada Sutta. I m sure all members will benefit from
              Message 6 of 21 , Apr 6, 2003
                Dear Nina, Derek and friends,

                Yes, I would be very glad if more people join in the translation of
                Maharahulovada Sutta. I'm sure all members will benefit from such a
                participation. I welcome those interested to reply to this mail. If
                we can gather just four or five persons, we can rotate among
                ourselves to post the translation of one paragraph each week (just
                one paragraph per person per month). If we have more participants,
                then a lighter load each will get.

                Nina, actually, I wanted to ask if you could do a translation (not
                necessary word by word) of the commentary so that I can put on
                Tipitaka.net. I'm glad to learn that you are already doing that. Yes,
                I look forward to you putting up the work here. Please do as you see
                fit.

                Do have a pleasant and safe trip, Nina.

                metta,
                Yong Peng

                --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote:
                I am now thinking of something else. I finished part of commentary to
                Mahaaraahulovaadasutta, but this is further on in the Sutta than the
                part of the sutta we had before, on the element of heat (fire). I
                like to coordinate with Yong Peng and decided to wait with my
                translation.

                I have the Pali sutta text on line (Jim gave it to me) and would like
                to ask Yong Peng whether I can bring it here, I mean, part by part.
                Perhaps first up to the element of air, later the element of space? I
                know that Yong Peng is so busy now, and can we perhaps help? I
                realize though that the three linear method also takes extra time. I
                wonder whether you could help here, bit by bit?

                Tomorrow I go away for three days, but I am interested to know what
                we can do after I come back.
              • nina van gorkom
                Dear Yong Peng and friends, let us do it. Wo is doing what? Trilinear is important, we have many silent participants who like to start reading suttas. The PTS
                Message 7 of 21 , Apr 10, 2003
                  Dear Yong Peng and friends,
                  let us do it. Wo is doing what?
                  Trilinear is important, we have many silent participants who like to start
                  reading suttas. The PTS translation and Wheel 101, Elephant's Footprint can
                  help us.
                  I am also thinking of the Pali week by week, but here helping you Yong Peng,
                  may still give you extra work, having to react, etc. And there is the word
                  of the week. But as to translation of these sentences, we ourselves could do
                  more.
                  Nina

                  This is the last translation on the Water Element:
                  "And what, Rahula, is the water element? The water element may be
                  internal or external. And what, Rahula, is the internal water
                  element? That, internally, and individually, is liquid, liquefied,
                  and clung to, namely: bile, phlegm, pus, blood, sweat, fat, tears,
                  tallow, saliva, snot, synovia, urine, or whatever else internally,
                  and individually, is liquid, liquefied, and clung to. This, Rahula,
                  is called the internal water element. But that very internal water
                  element and that external water element are simply water element.
                  Thus "this is not mine, this I am not, this is not myself" is to be
                  seen with right wisdom just as it is. Having seen this with right
                  wisdom just as it is, the mind is detached from and becomes
                  dispassionate towards the water element.

                  117. ``katamaa ca, raahula, vaayodhaatu?
                  /what\ |and| | element of wind|
                  And what, Rahula, is the wind element?

                  vaayodhaatu siyaa ajjhattikaa, siyaa baahiraa.
                  /internal\ /external\
                  The wind element may be internal or external.

                  katamaa ca, raahula, ajjhattikaa vaayodhaatu?
                  And what, Rahula, is the internal wind element?

                  ya.m ajjhatta.m paccatta.m vaayo vaayogata.m upaadinna.m,
                  /what\| internal||individual| |wind| |windy| |clung to|
                  That, internally, and individually, is wind, windy, and clung to.

                  (Who is next? I like to be corrected. Note: wind or motion, it has the
                  characteristic of motion or pressure.)

                  seyyathida.m -- uddha"ngamaa vaataa,
                  adhogamaa vaataa, kucchisayaa vaataa, ko.t.thaasayaa {ko.t.thasayaa } vaataa
                  , a"ngama"ngaanusaarino vaataa, assaaso passaaso, iti ya.m vaa
                  pana~n~nampi ki~nci ajjhatta.m paccatta.m vaayo vaayogata.m upaadinna.m --
                  aya.m vuccati, raahula, ajjhattikaa vaayodhaatu. yaa ceva kho pana
                  ajjhattikaa
                  vaayodhaatu yaa ca baahiraa vaayodhaatu vaayodhaaturevesaa. ta.m `neta.m
                  mama,
                  nesohamasmi , na meso attaa'ti -- evameta.m yathaabhuuta.m sammappa~n~naaya
                  da.t.thabba.m. evameta.m yathaabhuuta.m sammappa~n~naaya disvaa
                  vaayodhaatuyaa
                  nibbindati, vaayodhaatuyaa citta.m viraajeti.

                  op 06-04-2003 12:23 schreef Ong Yong Peng op ypong001@...:

                  > Yes, I would be very glad if more people join in the translation of
                  > Maharahulovada Sutta. I'm sure all members will benefit from such a
                  > participation. I welcome those interested to reply to this mail. If
                  > we can gather just four or five persons, we can rotate among
                  > ourselves to post the translation of one paragraph each week (just
                  > one paragraph per person per month). If we have more participants,
                  > then a lighter load each will get.
                  >
                • nina van gorkom
                  Dear Yong Peng, ... N: Please, use anything you like for the net. I cannot upload myself, but did you keep the parts in an archive?If not, I kept them in my
                  Message 8 of 21 , Apr 10, 2003
                    Dear Yong Peng,
                    op 06-04-2003 12:23 schreef Ong Yong Peng op ypong001@...:

                    > Nina, actually, I wanted to ask if you could do a translation (not
                    > necessary word by word) of the commentary so that I can put on
                    > Tipitaka.net. I'm glad to learn that you are already doing that. Yes,
                    > I look forward to you putting up the work here. Please do as you see
                    > fit.
                    N: Please, use anything you like for the net. I cannot upload myself, but
                    did you keep the parts in an archive?If not, I kept them in my doc. I can
                    send html attachments to others, so long as I do not receive them (Email
                    crash).
                    History: I started to translate parts from the Thai Co, then, I received the
                    Pali hard copy, and I still translated parts, added with summaries. Then Jim
                    gave me the text on line and I wanted to translate every line. I did not
                    know before I would become so involved with the text.
                    Now my question: If you like all line by line I can go back and do it after
                    I have gone to the end first. I would rather coordinate now with the sutta.
                    But I like to conform to your ideas about it.
                    Nina.
                  • Ong Yong Peng
                    Dear Nina and friends, thanks a lot, Nina, you are the only person replying to this mail. But nevertheless, thanks very much too for everyone on the list for
                    Message 9 of 21 , Apr 11, 2003
                      Dear Nina and friends,

                      thanks a lot, Nina, you are the only person replying to this mail.
                      But nevertheless, thanks very much too for everyone on the list for
                      the lively discussion of other topics.

                      Nina, I would love to hear your idea of Pali week by week. However, I
                      can't commit too much, not until I graduate from my undergraduate
                      study in November.

                      I am currently working on some enhancements to the site, as well as
                      planning to put back a forum. Although Dimitry has suggested to join
                      an existing forum, but I think in the long run, the site will need
                      its own forum. I have removed the last Yabb forum due to web space
                      constraints, now I am contemplating on something other than Yabb.

                      As for sutta translation, I really appreciate your kind contribution.
                      May I suggest that we each do just one paragraph per month. In that
                      case, it will be something like one paragraph every two weeks,
                      allowing for discussion in between, as well as some time for me to
                      compile and put them online. What do you think?

                      metta,
                      Yong Peng

                      --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote:
                      Trilinear is important, we have many silent participants who like to
                      start reading suttas. The PTS translation and Wheel 101, Elephant's
                      Footprint can help us.

                      I am also thinking of the Pali week by week, but here helping you
                      Yong Peng, may still give you extra work, having to react, etc. And
                      there is the word of the week. But as to translation of these
                      sentences, we ourselves could do more.

                      Nina
                      >
                      > This is the last translation on the Water Element:
                      > "And what, Rahula, is the water element? The water element may be
                      > internal or external. And what, Rahula, is the internal water
                      > element? That, internally, and individually, is liquid, liquefied,
                      > and clung to, namely: bile, phlegm, pus, blood, sweat, fat, tears,
                      > tallow, saliva, snot, synovia, urine, or whatever else internally,
                      > and individually, is liquid, liquefied, and clung to. This, Rahula,
                      > is called the internal water element. But that very internal water
                      > element and that external water element are simply water element.
                      > Thus "this is not mine, this I am not, this is not myself" is to be
                      > seen with right wisdom just as it is. Having seen this with right
                      > wisdom just as it is, the mind is detached from and becomes
                      > dispassionate towards the water element.
                      >
                      > 117. ``katamaa ca, raahula, vaayodhaatu?
                      > /what\ |and| | element of wind|
                      > And what, Rahula, is the wind element?
                      >
                      > vaayodhaatu siyaa ajjhattikaa, siyaa baahiraa.
                      > /internal\ /external\
                      > The wind element may be internal or external.
                      >
                      > katamaa ca, raahula, ajjhattikaa vaayodhaatu?
                      > And what, Rahula, is the internal wind element?
                      >
                      > ya.m ajjhatta.m paccatta.m vaayo vaayogata.m upaadinna.m,
                      > /what\| internal||individual| |wind| |windy| |clung to|
                      > That, internally, and individually, is wind, windy, and clung to.
                      >
                      > (Who is next? I like to be corrected. Note: wind or motion, it has
                      the
                      > characteristic of motion or pressure.)
                      >
                      > seyyathida.m -- uddha"ngamaa vaataa,
                      > adhogamaa vaataa, kucchisayaa vaataa, ko.t.thaasayaa
                      {ko.t.thasayaa } vaataa
                      > , a"ngama"ngaanusaarino vaataa, assaaso passaaso, iti ya.m vaa
                      > pana~n~nampi ki~nci ajjhatta.m paccatta.m vaayo vaayogata.m
                      upaadinna.m --
                      > aya.m vuccati, raahula, ajjhattikaa vaayodhaatu. yaa ceva kho pana
                      > ajjhattikaa
                      > vaayodhaatu yaa ca baahiraa vaayodhaatu vaayodhaaturevesaa. ta.m
                      `neta.m
                      > mama,
                      > nesohamasmi , na meso attaa'ti -- evameta.m yathaabhuuta.m
                      sammappa~n~naaya
                      > da.t.thabba.m. evameta.m yathaabhuuta.m sammappa~n~naaya disvaa
                      > vaayodhaatuyaa
                      > nibbindati, vaayodhaatuyaa citta.m viraajeti.
                    • nina van gorkom
                      Dear Yong Peng, op 11-04-2003 13:12 schreef Ong Yong Peng op ypong001@yahoo.com ... N: I understand the study is heavy for you. One sentence is also fine, I am
                      Message 10 of 21 , Apr 13, 2003
                        Dear Yong Peng,
                        op 11-04-2003 13:12 schreef Ong Yong Peng op ypong001@...
                        >
                        > Nina, I would love to hear your idea of Pali week by week. However, I
                        > can't commit too much, not until I graduate from my undergraduate
                        > study in November.
                        N: I understand the study is heavy for you. One sentence is also fine, I am
                        happy with anything. Will it help you if you just prepare, but leave more
                        work to us translating? I have the books for reference, no problem. I want
                        my daily Pali tr. anyway, so I do not mind what it is.
                        As to sutta: I like everybody just to see it as pleasure, not as duty. It is
                        difficult to organize rotating on a list. Say, if I jump to it, someone else
                        may jump at it at the same time. I enjoy teamwork more, but if this is
                        difficult to organize I can do more if you like. Maybe some more later next
                        week, I have some family duties first.
                        Y: I am currently working on some enhancements to the site, as well as
                        > planning to put back a forum. Although Dimitry has suggested to join
                        > an existing forum, but I think in the long run, the site will need
                        > its own forum.
                        N: This will be very hard work and it means more mails. We are already so
                        busy here, I feel, with the texts. I do not know what to say about it.
                        Y: As for sutta translation, I really appreciate your kind contribution.
                        > May I suggest that we each do just one paragraph per month. In that
                        > case, it will be something like one paragraph every two weeks,
                        > allowing for discussion in between, as well as some time for me to
                        > compile and put them online. What do you think?
                        N: is a para a sentence, or three lines? Anything you suggest. No problem.
                        Nina.
                      • Ong Yong Peng
                        Dear Nina and friends, thanks for your understanding and your generous offer to help on Pali Word by Word. However, I think it is not quite fair if I were to
                        Message 11 of 21 , Apr 14, 2003
                          Dear Nina and friends,

                          thanks for your understanding and your generous offer to help on Pali
                          Word by Word. However, I think it is not quite fair if I were to just
                          put the sentence and leave it for others to work out the translation.
                          I would like to make the first attempt, and then invite everyone to
                          look through and help up on the difficult parts.

                          For sutta translation, yes, please put up more as your time permit.
                          And, yes, sutta translation is a voluntary work (of high regard), but
                          certainly family and individual matters do take precedence. It is
                          actually fine whether it is one paragraph or one sentence. Although
                          one paragraph is appropriate for most of the time, sometimes a
                          difficult sentence is enough to start a good discussion.

                          For the forum, it will function separately from this mailing list. A
                          survey of current online Buddhist activites shows that there are a
                          good number of active forums and mailing lists. So, having another
                          one might seems sort of redundant, and therefore a waste of resource
                          to build and maintain. Therefore, my plan for rebuilding the forum
                          will be a slow process. Though separate, it will have to integrate
                          into what Tipitaka.net is having currently. An active forum, as I
                          perceive, is necessary to make Tipitaka.net an online community,
                          though that is yet to be proven. :-)

                          metta,
                          Yong Peng

                          --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote:
                          > N: I understand the study is heavy for you. One sentence is also
                          fine, I am happy with anything. Will it help you if you just prepare,
                          but leave more work to us translating? I have the books for
                          reference, no problem. I want my daily Pali tr. anyway, so I do not
                          mind what it is.
                          > As to sutta: I like everybody just to see it as pleasure, not as
                          duty. It is difficult to organize rotating on a list. Say, if I jump
                          to it, someone else may jump at it at the same time. I enjoy teamwork
                          more, but if this is difficult to organize I can do more if you like.
                          Maybe some more later next week, I have some family duties first.
                          > Y: I am currently working on some enhancements to the site, as
                          well as planning to put back a forum. Although Dimitry has suggested
                          to join an existing forum, but I think in the long run, the site will
                          need its own forum.
                          > N: This will be very hard work and it means more mails. We are
                          already so busy here, I feel, with the texts. I do not know what to
                          say about it.
                          > Y: As for sutta translation, I really appreciate your kind
                          contribution. May I suggest that we each do just one paragraph per
                          month. In that case, it will be something like one paragraph every
                          two weeks, allowing for discussion in between, as well as some time
                          for me to compile and put them online. What do you think?
                          > N: is a para a sentence, or three lines? Anything you suggest. No
                          problem.
                        • Ong Yong Peng
                          Dear Nina and friends, thanks. It will be great if you can provide a line by line English translation of MN62 comm. although the simplified summary form that
                          Message 12 of 21 , Apr 18, 2003
                            Dear Nina and friends,

                            thanks. It will be great if you can provide a line by line English
                            translation of MN62 comm. although the simplified summary form that
                            you are currently doing is just as great. I am sure there are many
                            people, including myself, who would like to see such a line by line
                            comm.. I appreciate your generous participation and assistance, and I
                            shall respect your decision on how to go about doing it.

                            metta,
                            Yong Peng

                            --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote:
                            Please, use anything you like for the net. I cannot upload myself,
                            but did you keep the parts in an archive? If not, I kept them in my
                            doc. I can send html attachments to others, so long as I do not
                            receive them (Email crash).
                            > History: I started to translate parts from the Thai Co, then, I
                            received the Pali hard copy, and I still translated parts, added with
                            summaries. Then Jim gave me the text on line and I wanted to
                            translate every line. I did not know before I would become so
                            involved with the text.
                            > Now my question: If you like all line by line I can go back and do
                            it after I have gone to the end first. I would rather coordinate now
                            with the sutta. But I like to conform to your ideas about it.
                          • nina van gorkom
                            Dear Yong Peng, I am glad you put the sutta tr. together, I felt somewhat clumsy with the trilineair. As to comm. I have done in the last sets, no 6-8, a
                            Message 13 of 21 , Apr 18, 2003
                              Dear Yong Peng,
                              I am glad you put the sutta tr. together, I felt somewhat clumsy with the
                              trilineair.
                              As to comm. I have done in the last sets, no 6-8, a litteral tr, but I have
                              done it in groups of two or more sentences. Now I shall change to one
                              sentence, or, do you prefer one line? A problem: how to break apart a whole
                              sentence? One sentence may be three lines.
                              I would rather not do a trilineair, because I have noticed with the sutta
                              that this takes a lot of time.
                              As I said, afterwards I can go back to the beginning and do line by line, do
                              also those parts I had not translated, only summarized.
                              Nina
                              op 18-04-2003 18:05 schreef Ong Yong Peng op ypong001@...
                              > thanks. It will be great if you can provide a line by line English
                              > translation of MN62 comm. although the simplified summary form that
                              > you are currently doing is just as great. I am sure there are many
                              > people, including myself, who would like to see such a line by line
                              > comm.. I appreciate your generous participation and assistance, and I
                              > shall respect your decision on how to go about doing it.
                              >
                            • Ong Yong Peng
                              Dear Nina and friends, thanks. It may be possible to break a sentence if there is a logical pause, usually indicated by a comma. I can t say to have a
                              Message 14 of 21 , Apr 19, 2003
                                Dear Nina and friends,

                                thanks. It may be possible to break a sentence if there is a logical
                                pause, usually indicated by a comma. I can't say to have a preference
                                in that aspect, but for trilinear, I prefer to keep sentences apart
                                from each other. Long sentences can be broken into several parts.

                                metta,
                                Yong Peng

                                --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote:
                                As to comm. I have done in the last sets, no 6-8, a litteral tr, but
                                I have done it in groups of two or more sentences. Now I shall change
                                to one sentence, or, do you prefer one line? A problem: how to break
                                apart a whole sentence? One sentence may be three lines.
                              Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.