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Re: 4 jhanas - vitakka & vicara

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  • Derek Cameron
    Hi, Lars, See the PED article on vitakka. Derek.
    Message 1 of 21 , Apr 3, 2003
      Hi, Lars,

      See the PED article on vitakka.

      Derek.
    • Lars Siebold
      Hi Derek, ... O.K. But isn t it still just different kinds of thought? Compare the definition of vaci-sankhara as vitakka and vicara: After having vitakka d
      Message 2 of 21 , Apr 3, 2003
        Hi Derek,

        > See the PED article on vitakka.

        O.K. But isn't it still just different kinds of thought?
        Compare the definition of vaci-sankhara as vitakka and vicara: After having
        vitakka'd and vicara'd one breaks out into speach, thus they are called the
        vaci-sankhara.
        Certainly it would be quite a subtle kind of thought in the jhana. (see also
        http://www.buddhadust.org/dhammatalk/give_ear/rethinking_vitakka.htm)

        Greetings
        Lars
      • Lars Siebold
        See also http://www.buddhadust.org/dhammatalk/dhamma_talk/pajapatis_problem.htm It s not really about our problem here, but the beginning is also about vitakka
        Message 3 of 21 , Apr 3, 2003
          See also
          http://www.buddhadust.org/dhammatalk/dhamma_talk/pajapatis_problem.htm
          It's not really about our problem here, but the beginning is also about
          vitakka and vicara. Anyway it makes an interresting read, also in
          combination with
          http://www.buddhadust.org/dhammatalk/sitting_practice/koan_n_samma_ditthi.ht
          m

          Lars
        • Derek Cameron
          Hi, Lars, For me, Ajahn Brahmavamso puts it well: QUOTE However, it should be known and recognised that thinking, as you normally perceive it, is not present
          Message 4 of 21 , Apr 3, 2003
            Hi, Lars,

            For me, Ajahn Brahmavamso puts it well:

            QUOTE

            However, it should be known and recognised that thinking, as you
            normally perceive it, is not present in these jhanas at all.

            That which we call thought has completely subsided.

            What these two terms refer to is a last vestige of the movement of
            the mind which, if it was continued, would give rise to thinking.

            ENDQUOTE

            That's from his talk titled "Travelogue to the four jhanas" at
            http://www.saigon.com/~anson/ebud/ebmed042.htm

            Derek.
          • ������� ���������� ��������� (Dimitry A.
            Dear John, JK In a highly JK concentrated state, there doesn t seem to be a place JK for deliberation and reasoned reflection. I would translate vitakka
            Message 5 of 21 , Apr 3, 2003
              Dear John,

              JK> In a highly
              JK> concentrated state, there doesn't seem to be a place
              JK> for deliberation and reasoned reflection.

              I would translate "vitakka" and "vicara" as "reasoning" and "study".
              Vitakka shifts to the object with the help of the logical analysis of
              the designations, and vicara investigates the object on the basis of
              its concept. There's surely a place for those processes in the first
              jhana.

              The rendering 'applied and sustained thought' shows the consequential
              roles that vitakka and vicara play, yet it removes the exact meanings
              of these processes.

              Metta,
              Dimitry
            • Lars Siebold
              ... Hi Derek, That s about what I had in mind when I said subtle kind of thought . I have in no way anything to say about vitakka and vicara in the jhana (not
              Message 6 of 21 , Apr 4, 2003
                Derek Cameron wrote:
                > For me, Ajahn Brahmavamso puts it well:

                Hi Derek,

                That's about what I had in mind when I said "subtle kind of thought". I have
                in no way anything to say about vitakka and vicara in the jhana (not yet
                :-)). What I wanted to point out was, that also in Buddhist use it certainly
                has the meaning of "thought". Your post sounded like you said it wouldn't
                have that meaning in the Buddhas teaching at all. I hope I didn't
                missunderstand you there.

                Lars
              • nina van gorkom
                Hi Derek and all, op 03-04-2003 21:38 schreef Derek Cameron op derekacameron@yahoo.com:about vitakka and vicaara. N:You may find it helpful to read the
                Message 7 of 21 , Apr 5, 2003
                  Hi Derek and all,

                  op 03-04-2003 21:38 schreef Derek Cameron op derekacameron@...:about
                  vitakka and vicaara.

                  N:You may find it helpful to read the Visuddhimagga, Ch III and IV. It makes
                  very good reading anyway.This part is on Rob K's web:
                  http://www.abhidhamma.org/

                  It is described that vitakka is still needed in the first jhana, it is
                  accompanying the jhanacitta and it hits or strikes the meditation subject
                  again and again. Vicara causes the citta to be occupied with the medtation
                  subject. These two factors are among the jhanafactors which have to be
                  cultivated and they perform their functions also in access concentration and
                  in attainment concentration, when jhanacitta arises. Now here we should not
                  think of <thinking> as we use the word in conventional language. When the
                  yogaavacaara develops the meditation subject, for example a kasina, he has
                  to look at it first, and then he acquirs a mental image. When calm is
                  developed and he attains jhana he experiences the meditation subject with
                  absorption. He does not think of the kasina, but the cetasikas vitakka and
                  vicara that accompany the jhanacitta are performing their functions. In the
                  second jhana (of the fourfold system) these factors are no longer needed in
                  order to experience the meditation subject. There is a greater calm so that
                  vitakka and vicara are abandoned. Also in samatha (not only in vipassana)
                  great pa~n~naa is needed so that the different jhanafactors can be
                  discerned. This is most difficult, because vitakka and vicara are very
                  close.
                  But, by the way, Derek, you know, I am missing your suttas. But I
                  understand it if it is difficult to find time.
                  Nina.
                • Derek Cameron
                  Hi, Nina, ... That s an excellent way of putting it. ... Yes, it s fun doing a whole sutta provided it s of a reasonable length. Since I can t get to the
                  Message 8 of 21 , Apr 5, 2003
                    Hi, Nina,

                    > Now here we should not
                    > think of <thinking> as we use the word in conventional language.

                    That's an excellent way of putting it.

                    > But, by the way, Derek, you know, I am missing your suttas. But I
                    > understand it if it is difficult to find time.

                    Yes, it's fun doing a whole sutta provided it's of a reasonable
                    length. Since I can't get to the internet as much as I used to, would
                    you or anyone else like to start one?

                    Derek.
                  • nina van gorkom
                    Dear Derek and Yong Peng, ... N: But I am not a webgoer either, and my Email crashes when people send me attachments, except Jim s texts. I am now thinking of
                    Message 9 of 21 , Apr 6, 2003
                      Dear Derek and Yong Peng,
                      op 05-04-2003 20:27 schreef Derek Cameron op derekacameron@...:
                      >
                      > Yes, it's fun doing a whole sutta provided it's of a reasonable
                      > length. Since I can't get to the internet as much as I used to, would
                      > you or anyone else like to start one?
                      N: But I am not a webgoer either, and my Email crashes when people send me
                      attachments, except Jim's texts. I am now thinking of something else. I
                      finished part of commentary to Mahaaraahulovaadasutta, but this is further
                      on in the Sutta than the part of the sutta we had before, on the element of
                      heat (fire). I like to coordinate with Yong Peng and decided to wait with my
                      translation.
                      I have the Pali sutta text on line (Jim gave it to me) and would like to ask
                      Yong Peng whether I can bring it here, I mean, part by part. Perhaps first
                      up to the element of air, later the element of space?
                      I know that Yong Peng is so busy now, and can we perhaps help? I realize
                      though that the three linear method also takes extra time. I wonder whether
                      you could help here, bit by bit?
                      Tomorrow I go away for three days, but I am interested to know what we can
                      do after I come back.
                      Nina.
                    • Ong Yong Peng
                      Dear Nina, Derek and friends, Yes, I would be very glad if more people join in the translation of Maharahulovada Sutta. I m sure all members will benefit from
                      Message 10 of 21 , Apr 6, 2003
                        Dear Nina, Derek and friends,

                        Yes, I would be very glad if more people join in the translation of
                        Maharahulovada Sutta. I'm sure all members will benefit from such a
                        participation. I welcome those interested to reply to this mail. If
                        we can gather just four or five persons, we can rotate among
                        ourselves to post the translation of one paragraph each week (just
                        one paragraph per person per month). If we have more participants,
                        then a lighter load each will get.

                        Nina, actually, I wanted to ask if you could do a translation (not
                        necessary word by word) of the commentary so that I can put on
                        Tipitaka.net. I'm glad to learn that you are already doing that. Yes,
                        I look forward to you putting up the work here. Please do as you see
                        fit.

                        Do have a pleasant and safe trip, Nina.

                        metta,
                        Yong Peng

                        --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote:
                        I am now thinking of something else. I finished part of commentary to
                        Mahaaraahulovaadasutta, but this is further on in the Sutta than the
                        part of the sutta we had before, on the element of heat (fire). I
                        like to coordinate with Yong Peng and decided to wait with my
                        translation.

                        I have the Pali sutta text on line (Jim gave it to me) and would like
                        to ask Yong Peng whether I can bring it here, I mean, part by part.
                        Perhaps first up to the element of air, later the element of space? I
                        know that Yong Peng is so busy now, and can we perhaps help? I
                        realize though that the three linear method also takes extra time. I
                        wonder whether you could help here, bit by bit?

                        Tomorrow I go away for three days, but I am interested to know what
                        we can do after I come back.
                      • nina van gorkom
                        Dear Yong Peng and friends, let us do it. Wo is doing what? Trilinear is important, we have many silent participants who like to start reading suttas. The PTS
                        Message 11 of 21 , Apr 10, 2003
                          Dear Yong Peng and friends,
                          let us do it. Wo is doing what?
                          Trilinear is important, we have many silent participants who like to start
                          reading suttas. The PTS translation and Wheel 101, Elephant's Footprint can
                          help us.
                          I am also thinking of the Pali week by week, but here helping you Yong Peng,
                          may still give you extra work, having to react, etc. And there is the word
                          of the week. But as to translation of these sentences, we ourselves could do
                          more.
                          Nina

                          This is the last translation on the Water Element:
                          "And what, Rahula, is the water element? The water element may be
                          internal or external. And what, Rahula, is the internal water
                          element? That, internally, and individually, is liquid, liquefied,
                          and clung to, namely: bile, phlegm, pus, blood, sweat, fat, tears,
                          tallow, saliva, snot, synovia, urine, or whatever else internally,
                          and individually, is liquid, liquefied, and clung to. This, Rahula,
                          is called the internal water element. But that very internal water
                          element and that external water element are simply water element.
                          Thus "this is not mine, this I am not, this is not myself" is to be
                          seen with right wisdom just as it is. Having seen this with right
                          wisdom just as it is, the mind is detached from and becomes
                          dispassionate towards the water element.

                          117. ``katamaa ca, raahula, vaayodhaatu?
                          /what\ |and| | element of wind|
                          And what, Rahula, is the wind element?

                          vaayodhaatu siyaa ajjhattikaa, siyaa baahiraa.
                          /internal\ /external\
                          The wind element may be internal or external.

                          katamaa ca, raahula, ajjhattikaa vaayodhaatu?
                          And what, Rahula, is the internal wind element?

                          ya.m ajjhatta.m paccatta.m vaayo vaayogata.m upaadinna.m,
                          /what\| internal||individual| |wind| |windy| |clung to|
                          That, internally, and individually, is wind, windy, and clung to.

                          (Who is next? I like to be corrected. Note: wind or motion, it has the
                          characteristic of motion or pressure.)

                          seyyathida.m -- uddha"ngamaa vaataa,
                          adhogamaa vaataa, kucchisayaa vaataa, ko.t.thaasayaa {ko.t.thasayaa } vaataa
                          , a"ngama"ngaanusaarino vaataa, assaaso passaaso, iti ya.m vaa
                          pana~n~nampi ki~nci ajjhatta.m paccatta.m vaayo vaayogata.m upaadinna.m --
                          aya.m vuccati, raahula, ajjhattikaa vaayodhaatu. yaa ceva kho pana
                          ajjhattikaa
                          vaayodhaatu yaa ca baahiraa vaayodhaatu vaayodhaaturevesaa. ta.m `neta.m
                          mama,
                          nesohamasmi , na meso attaa'ti -- evameta.m yathaabhuuta.m sammappa~n~naaya
                          da.t.thabba.m. evameta.m yathaabhuuta.m sammappa~n~naaya disvaa
                          vaayodhaatuyaa
                          nibbindati, vaayodhaatuyaa citta.m viraajeti.

                          op 06-04-2003 12:23 schreef Ong Yong Peng op ypong001@...:

                          > Yes, I would be very glad if more people join in the translation of
                          > Maharahulovada Sutta. I'm sure all members will benefit from such a
                          > participation. I welcome those interested to reply to this mail. If
                          > we can gather just four or five persons, we can rotate among
                          > ourselves to post the translation of one paragraph each week (just
                          > one paragraph per person per month). If we have more participants,
                          > then a lighter load each will get.
                          >
                        • nina van gorkom
                          Dear Yong Peng, ... N: Please, use anything you like for the net. I cannot upload myself, but did you keep the parts in an archive?If not, I kept them in my
                          Message 12 of 21 , Apr 10, 2003
                            Dear Yong Peng,
                            op 06-04-2003 12:23 schreef Ong Yong Peng op ypong001@...:

                            > Nina, actually, I wanted to ask if you could do a translation (not
                            > necessary word by word) of the commentary so that I can put on
                            > Tipitaka.net. I'm glad to learn that you are already doing that. Yes,
                            > I look forward to you putting up the work here. Please do as you see
                            > fit.
                            N: Please, use anything you like for the net. I cannot upload myself, but
                            did you keep the parts in an archive?If not, I kept them in my doc. I can
                            send html attachments to others, so long as I do not receive them (Email
                            crash).
                            History: I started to translate parts from the Thai Co, then, I received the
                            Pali hard copy, and I still translated parts, added with summaries. Then Jim
                            gave me the text on line and I wanted to translate every line. I did not
                            know before I would become so involved with the text.
                            Now my question: If you like all line by line I can go back and do it after
                            I have gone to the end first. I would rather coordinate now with the sutta.
                            But I like to conform to your ideas about it.
                            Nina.
                          • Ong Yong Peng
                            Dear Nina and friends, thanks a lot, Nina, you are the only person replying to this mail. But nevertheless, thanks very much too for everyone on the list for
                            Message 13 of 21 , Apr 11, 2003
                              Dear Nina and friends,

                              thanks a lot, Nina, you are the only person replying to this mail.
                              But nevertheless, thanks very much too for everyone on the list for
                              the lively discussion of other topics.

                              Nina, I would love to hear your idea of Pali week by week. However, I
                              can't commit too much, not until I graduate from my undergraduate
                              study in November.

                              I am currently working on some enhancements to the site, as well as
                              planning to put back a forum. Although Dimitry has suggested to join
                              an existing forum, but I think in the long run, the site will need
                              its own forum. I have removed the last Yabb forum due to web space
                              constraints, now I am contemplating on something other than Yabb.

                              As for sutta translation, I really appreciate your kind contribution.
                              May I suggest that we each do just one paragraph per month. In that
                              case, it will be something like one paragraph every two weeks,
                              allowing for discussion in between, as well as some time for me to
                              compile and put them online. What do you think?

                              metta,
                              Yong Peng

                              --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote:
                              Trilinear is important, we have many silent participants who like to
                              start reading suttas. The PTS translation and Wheel 101, Elephant's
                              Footprint can help us.

                              I am also thinking of the Pali week by week, but here helping you
                              Yong Peng, may still give you extra work, having to react, etc. And
                              there is the word of the week. But as to translation of these
                              sentences, we ourselves could do more.

                              Nina
                              >
                              > This is the last translation on the Water Element:
                              > "And what, Rahula, is the water element? The water element may be
                              > internal or external. And what, Rahula, is the internal water
                              > element? That, internally, and individually, is liquid, liquefied,
                              > and clung to, namely: bile, phlegm, pus, blood, sweat, fat, tears,
                              > tallow, saliva, snot, synovia, urine, or whatever else internally,
                              > and individually, is liquid, liquefied, and clung to. This, Rahula,
                              > is called the internal water element. But that very internal water
                              > element and that external water element are simply water element.
                              > Thus "this is not mine, this I am not, this is not myself" is to be
                              > seen with right wisdom just as it is. Having seen this with right
                              > wisdom just as it is, the mind is detached from and becomes
                              > dispassionate towards the water element.
                              >
                              > 117. ``katamaa ca, raahula, vaayodhaatu?
                              > /what\ |and| | element of wind|
                              > And what, Rahula, is the wind element?
                              >
                              > vaayodhaatu siyaa ajjhattikaa, siyaa baahiraa.
                              > /internal\ /external\
                              > The wind element may be internal or external.
                              >
                              > katamaa ca, raahula, ajjhattikaa vaayodhaatu?
                              > And what, Rahula, is the internal wind element?
                              >
                              > ya.m ajjhatta.m paccatta.m vaayo vaayogata.m upaadinna.m,
                              > /what\| internal||individual| |wind| |windy| |clung to|
                              > That, internally, and individually, is wind, windy, and clung to.
                              >
                              > (Who is next? I like to be corrected. Note: wind or motion, it has
                              the
                              > characteristic of motion or pressure.)
                              >
                              > seyyathida.m -- uddha"ngamaa vaataa,
                              > adhogamaa vaataa, kucchisayaa vaataa, ko.t.thaasayaa
                              {ko.t.thasayaa } vaataa
                              > , a"ngama"ngaanusaarino vaataa, assaaso passaaso, iti ya.m vaa
                              > pana~n~nampi ki~nci ajjhatta.m paccatta.m vaayo vaayogata.m
                              upaadinna.m --
                              > aya.m vuccati, raahula, ajjhattikaa vaayodhaatu. yaa ceva kho pana
                              > ajjhattikaa
                              > vaayodhaatu yaa ca baahiraa vaayodhaatu vaayodhaaturevesaa. ta.m
                              `neta.m
                              > mama,
                              > nesohamasmi , na meso attaa'ti -- evameta.m yathaabhuuta.m
                              sammappa~n~naaya
                              > da.t.thabba.m. evameta.m yathaabhuuta.m sammappa~n~naaya disvaa
                              > vaayodhaatuyaa
                              > nibbindati, vaayodhaatuyaa citta.m viraajeti.
                            • nina van gorkom
                              Dear Yong Peng, op 11-04-2003 13:12 schreef Ong Yong Peng op ypong001@yahoo.com ... N: I understand the study is heavy for you. One sentence is also fine, I am
                              Message 14 of 21 , Apr 13, 2003
                                Dear Yong Peng,
                                op 11-04-2003 13:12 schreef Ong Yong Peng op ypong001@...
                                >
                                > Nina, I would love to hear your idea of Pali week by week. However, I
                                > can't commit too much, not until I graduate from my undergraduate
                                > study in November.
                                N: I understand the study is heavy for you. One sentence is also fine, I am
                                happy with anything. Will it help you if you just prepare, but leave more
                                work to us translating? I have the books for reference, no problem. I want
                                my daily Pali tr. anyway, so I do not mind what it is.
                                As to sutta: I like everybody just to see it as pleasure, not as duty. It is
                                difficult to organize rotating on a list. Say, if I jump to it, someone else
                                may jump at it at the same time. I enjoy teamwork more, but if this is
                                difficult to organize I can do more if you like. Maybe some more later next
                                week, I have some family duties first.
                                Y: I am currently working on some enhancements to the site, as well as
                                > planning to put back a forum. Although Dimitry has suggested to join
                                > an existing forum, but I think in the long run, the site will need
                                > its own forum.
                                N: This will be very hard work and it means more mails. We are already so
                                busy here, I feel, with the texts. I do not know what to say about it.
                                Y: As for sutta translation, I really appreciate your kind contribution.
                                > May I suggest that we each do just one paragraph per month. In that
                                > case, it will be something like one paragraph every two weeks,
                                > allowing for discussion in between, as well as some time for me to
                                > compile and put them online. What do you think?
                                N: is a para a sentence, or three lines? Anything you suggest. No problem.
                                Nina.
                              • Ong Yong Peng
                                Dear Nina and friends, thanks for your understanding and your generous offer to help on Pali Word by Word. However, I think it is not quite fair if I were to
                                Message 15 of 21 , Apr 14, 2003
                                  Dear Nina and friends,

                                  thanks for your understanding and your generous offer to help on Pali
                                  Word by Word. However, I think it is not quite fair if I were to just
                                  put the sentence and leave it for others to work out the translation.
                                  I would like to make the first attempt, and then invite everyone to
                                  look through and help up on the difficult parts.

                                  For sutta translation, yes, please put up more as your time permit.
                                  And, yes, sutta translation is a voluntary work (of high regard), but
                                  certainly family and individual matters do take precedence. It is
                                  actually fine whether it is one paragraph or one sentence. Although
                                  one paragraph is appropriate for most of the time, sometimes a
                                  difficult sentence is enough to start a good discussion.

                                  For the forum, it will function separately from this mailing list. A
                                  survey of current online Buddhist activites shows that there are a
                                  good number of active forums and mailing lists. So, having another
                                  one might seems sort of redundant, and therefore a waste of resource
                                  to build and maintain. Therefore, my plan for rebuilding the forum
                                  will be a slow process. Though separate, it will have to integrate
                                  into what Tipitaka.net is having currently. An active forum, as I
                                  perceive, is necessary to make Tipitaka.net an online community,
                                  though that is yet to be proven. :-)

                                  metta,
                                  Yong Peng

                                  --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote:
                                  > N: I understand the study is heavy for you. One sentence is also
                                  fine, I am happy with anything. Will it help you if you just prepare,
                                  but leave more work to us translating? I have the books for
                                  reference, no problem. I want my daily Pali tr. anyway, so I do not
                                  mind what it is.
                                  > As to sutta: I like everybody just to see it as pleasure, not as
                                  duty. It is difficult to organize rotating on a list. Say, if I jump
                                  to it, someone else may jump at it at the same time. I enjoy teamwork
                                  more, but if this is difficult to organize I can do more if you like.
                                  Maybe some more later next week, I have some family duties first.
                                  > Y: I am currently working on some enhancements to the site, as
                                  well as planning to put back a forum. Although Dimitry has suggested
                                  to join an existing forum, but I think in the long run, the site will
                                  need its own forum.
                                  > N: This will be very hard work and it means more mails. We are
                                  already so busy here, I feel, with the texts. I do not know what to
                                  say about it.
                                  > Y: As for sutta translation, I really appreciate your kind
                                  contribution. May I suggest that we each do just one paragraph per
                                  month. In that case, it will be something like one paragraph every
                                  two weeks, allowing for discussion in between, as well as some time
                                  for me to compile and put them online. What do you think?
                                  > N: is a para a sentence, or three lines? Anything you suggest. No
                                  problem.
                                • Ong Yong Peng
                                  Dear Nina and friends, thanks. It will be great if you can provide a line by line English translation of MN62 comm. although the simplified summary form that
                                  Message 16 of 21 , Apr 18, 2003
                                    Dear Nina and friends,

                                    thanks. It will be great if you can provide a line by line English
                                    translation of MN62 comm. although the simplified summary form that
                                    you are currently doing is just as great. I am sure there are many
                                    people, including myself, who would like to see such a line by line
                                    comm.. I appreciate your generous participation and assistance, and I
                                    shall respect your decision on how to go about doing it.

                                    metta,
                                    Yong Peng

                                    --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote:
                                    Please, use anything you like for the net. I cannot upload myself,
                                    but did you keep the parts in an archive? If not, I kept them in my
                                    doc. I can send html attachments to others, so long as I do not
                                    receive them (Email crash).
                                    > History: I started to translate parts from the Thai Co, then, I
                                    received the Pali hard copy, and I still translated parts, added with
                                    summaries. Then Jim gave me the text on line and I wanted to
                                    translate every line. I did not know before I would become so
                                    involved with the text.
                                    > Now my question: If you like all line by line I can go back and do
                                    it after I have gone to the end first. I would rather coordinate now
                                    with the sutta. But I like to conform to your ideas about it.
                                  • nina van gorkom
                                    Dear Yong Peng, I am glad you put the sutta tr. together, I felt somewhat clumsy with the trilineair. As to comm. I have done in the last sets, no 6-8, a
                                    Message 17 of 21 , Apr 18, 2003
                                      Dear Yong Peng,
                                      I am glad you put the sutta tr. together, I felt somewhat clumsy with the
                                      trilineair.
                                      As to comm. I have done in the last sets, no 6-8, a litteral tr, but I have
                                      done it in groups of two or more sentences. Now I shall change to one
                                      sentence, or, do you prefer one line? A problem: how to break apart a whole
                                      sentence? One sentence may be three lines.
                                      I would rather not do a trilineair, because I have noticed with the sutta
                                      that this takes a lot of time.
                                      As I said, afterwards I can go back to the beginning and do line by line, do
                                      also those parts I had not translated, only summarized.
                                      Nina
                                      op 18-04-2003 18:05 schreef Ong Yong Peng op ypong001@...
                                      > thanks. It will be great if you can provide a line by line English
                                      > translation of MN62 comm. although the simplified summary form that
                                      > you are currently doing is just as great. I am sure there are many
                                      > people, including myself, who would like to see such a line by line
                                      > comm.. I appreciate your generous participation and assistance, and I
                                      > shall respect your decision on how to go about doing it.
                                      >
                                    • Ong Yong Peng
                                      Dear Nina and friends, thanks. It may be possible to break a sentence if there is a logical pause, usually indicated by a comma. I can t say to have a
                                      Message 18 of 21 , Apr 19, 2003
                                        Dear Nina and friends,

                                        thanks. It may be possible to break a sentence if there is a logical
                                        pause, usually indicated by a comma. I can't say to have a preference
                                        in that aspect, but for trilinear, I prefer to keep sentences apart
                                        from each other. Long sentences can be broken into several parts.

                                        metta,
                                        Yong Peng

                                        --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote:
                                        As to comm. I have done in the last sets, no 6-8, a litteral tr, but
                                        I have done it in groups of two or more sentences. Now I shall change
                                        to one sentence, or, do you prefer one line? A problem: how to break
                                        apart a whole sentence? One sentence may be three lines.
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