Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.
 

4 jhanas - vitakka & vicara

Expand Messages
  • John Kelly
    Dear Rene, ... JK: The pali that you have translated as deliberation and reasoned reflection is vitakka and vicara . Sometimes these are also translated
    Message 1 of 21 , Apr 3, 2003
      Dear Rene,

      You wrote:
      >A schema of the jhanas would be as follows (my
      >rendering):
      >(1) a state born of detachment,
      >accompanied by deliberation + reasoned reflection,
      >delight + contentment.
      >(2) (suppression of deliberation + reasoned
      >reflection)
      >continuing delight + contentment
      >His mind becomes concentrated.
      > ...

      JK:
      The pali that you have translated as "deliberation"
      and "reasoned reflection" is "vitakka" and "vicara".
      Sometimes these are also translated as "applied and
      sustained thought". My understanding of these terms,
      at least in connection with the jhanas is "applied and
      sustained attention", that is, on the meditation
      object that one uses as the pathway to access
      concentration leading to jhana. In a highly
      concentrated state, there doesn't seem to be a place
      for deliberation and reasoned reflection.

      Any other thoughts on this?

      Metta,
      John


      __________________________________________________
      Do you Yahoo!?
      Yahoo! Tax Center - File online, calculators, forms, and more
      http://tax.yahoo.com
    • Derek Cameron
      Hi, John, ... Interesting ... we were just discussing the jhanas on another list I belong to. ... My theory about this is that we are looking at two words
      Message 2 of 21 , Apr 3, 2003
        Hi, John,

        > The pali that you have translated as "deliberation"
        > and "reasoned reflection" is "vitakka" and "vicara".
        > Sometimes these are also translated as "applied and
        > sustained thought". My understanding of these terms,
        > at least in connection with the jhanas is "applied and
        > sustained attention", that is, on the meditation
        > object that one uses as the pathway to access
        > concentration leading to jhana.

        Interesting ... we were just discussing the jhanas on another list I
        belong to.

        > In a highly
        > concentrated state, there doesn't seem to be a place
        > for deliberation and reasoned reflection.

        > Any other thoughts on this?

        My theory about this is that we are looking at two words whose
        meanings changed over time.

        According to the PED, they both originally meant kinds of
        thinking ... hence the translations as "deliberation" and "reasoned
        reflection."

        But in the Buddhist texts they have the specific technical meanings
        of "applying the mind to an object," and then "the mental activity
        that takes place around that object."

        So, translating them as "deliberation and reasoned reflection" in a
        Buddhist context is to confuse an earlier, general meaning with a
        later, technical meaning -- hence the puzzling results.

        PED online link:

        http://dsal.uchicago.edu/dictionaries/pali/index.html

        Derek.
      • Lars Siebold
        ... Can you tell me more about how you get to that conclusion? Lars
        Message 3 of 21 , Apr 3, 2003
          Derek Cameron wrote:
          > But in the Buddhist texts they have the specific technical meanings
          > of "applying the mind to an object," and then "the mental activity
          > that takes place around that object."

          Can you tell me more about how you get to that conclusion?

          Lars
        • Derek Cameron
          Hi, Lars, See the PED article on vitakka. Derek.
          Message 4 of 21 , Apr 3, 2003
            Hi, Lars,

            See the PED article on vitakka.

            Derek.
          • Lars Siebold
            Hi Derek, ... O.K. But isn t it still just different kinds of thought? Compare the definition of vaci-sankhara as vitakka and vicara: After having vitakka d
            Message 5 of 21 , Apr 3, 2003
              Hi Derek,

              > See the PED article on vitakka.

              O.K. But isn't it still just different kinds of thought?
              Compare the definition of vaci-sankhara as vitakka and vicara: After having
              vitakka'd and vicara'd one breaks out into speach, thus they are called the
              vaci-sankhara.
              Certainly it would be quite a subtle kind of thought in the jhana. (see also
              http://www.buddhadust.org/dhammatalk/give_ear/rethinking_vitakka.htm)

              Greetings
              Lars
            • Lars Siebold
              See also http://www.buddhadust.org/dhammatalk/dhamma_talk/pajapatis_problem.htm It s not really about our problem here, but the beginning is also about vitakka
              Message 6 of 21 , Apr 3, 2003
                See also
                http://www.buddhadust.org/dhammatalk/dhamma_talk/pajapatis_problem.htm
                It's not really about our problem here, but the beginning is also about
                vitakka and vicara. Anyway it makes an interresting read, also in
                combination with
                http://www.buddhadust.org/dhammatalk/sitting_practice/koan_n_samma_ditthi.ht
                m

                Lars
              • Derek Cameron
                Hi, Lars, For me, Ajahn Brahmavamso puts it well: QUOTE However, it should be known and recognised that thinking, as you normally perceive it, is not present
                Message 7 of 21 , Apr 3, 2003
                  Hi, Lars,

                  For me, Ajahn Brahmavamso puts it well:

                  QUOTE

                  However, it should be known and recognised that thinking, as you
                  normally perceive it, is not present in these jhanas at all.

                  That which we call thought has completely subsided.

                  What these two terms refer to is a last vestige of the movement of
                  the mind which, if it was continued, would give rise to thinking.

                  ENDQUOTE

                  That's from his talk titled "Travelogue to the four jhanas" at
                  http://www.saigon.com/~anson/ebud/ebmed042.htm

                  Derek.
                • ������� ���������� ��������� (Dimitry A.
                  Dear John, JK In a highly JK concentrated state, there doesn t seem to be a place JK for deliberation and reasoned reflection. I would translate vitakka
                  Message 8 of 21 , Apr 3, 2003
                    Dear John,

                    JK> In a highly
                    JK> concentrated state, there doesn't seem to be a place
                    JK> for deliberation and reasoned reflection.

                    I would translate "vitakka" and "vicara" as "reasoning" and "study".
                    Vitakka shifts to the object with the help of the logical analysis of
                    the designations, and vicara investigates the object on the basis of
                    its concept. There's surely a place for those processes in the first
                    jhana.

                    The rendering 'applied and sustained thought' shows the consequential
                    roles that vitakka and vicara play, yet it removes the exact meanings
                    of these processes.

                    Metta,
                    Dimitry
                  • Lars Siebold
                    ... Hi Derek, That s about what I had in mind when I said subtle kind of thought . I have in no way anything to say about vitakka and vicara in the jhana (not
                    Message 9 of 21 , Apr 4, 2003
                      Derek Cameron wrote:
                      > For me, Ajahn Brahmavamso puts it well:

                      Hi Derek,

                      That's about what I had in mind when I said "subtle kind of thought". I have
                      in no way anything to say about vitakka and vicara in the jhana (not yet
                      :-)). What I wanted to point out was, that also in Buddhist use it certainly
                      has the meaning of "thought". Your post sounded like you said it wouldn't
                      have that meaning in the Buddhas teaching at all. I hope I didn't
                      missunderstand you there.

                      Lars
                    • nina van gorkom
                      Hi Derek and all, op 03-04-2003 21:38 schreef Derek Cameron op derekacameron@yahoo.com:about vitakka and vicaara. N:You may find it helpful to read the
                      Message 10 of 21 , Apr 5, 2003
                        Hi Derek and all,

                        op 03-04-2003 21:38 schreef Derek Cameron op derekacameron@...:about
                        vitakka and vicaara.

                        N:You may find it helpful to read the Visuddhimagga, Ch III and IV. It makes
                        very good reading anyway.This part is on Rob K's web:
                        http://www.abhidhamma.org/

                        It is described that vitakka is still needed in the first jhana, it is
                        accompanying the jhanacitta and it hits or strikes the meditation subject
                        again and again. Vicara causes the citta to be occupied with the medtation
                        subject. These two factors are among the jhanafactors which have to be
                        cultivated and they perform their functions also in access concentration and
                        in attainment concentration, when jhanacitta arises. Now here we should not
                        think of <thinking> as we use the word in conventional language. When the
                        yogaavacaara develops the meditation subject, for example a kasina, he has
                        to look at it first, and then he acquirs a mental image. When calm is
                        developed and he attains jhana he experiences the meditation subject with
                        absorption. He does not think of the kasina, but the cetasikas vitakka and
                        vicara that accompany the jhanacitta are performing their functions. In the
                        second jhana (of the fourfold system) these factors are no longer needed in
                        order to experience the meditation subject. There is a greater calm so that
                        vitakka and vicara are abandoned. Also in samatha (not only in vipassana)
                        great pa~n~naa is needed so that the different jhanafactors can be
                        discerned. This is most difficult, because vitakka and vicara are very
                        close.
                        But, by the way, Derek, you know, I am missing your suttas. But I
                        understand it if it is difficult to find time.
                        Nina.
                      • Derek Cameron
                        Hi, Nina, ... That s an excellent way of putting it. ... Yes, it s fun doing a whole sutta provided it s of a reasonable length. Since I can t get to the
                        Message 11 of 21 , Apr 5, 2003
                          Hi, Nina,

                          > Now here we should not
                          > think of <thinking> as we use the word in conventional language.

                          That's an excellent way of putting it.

                          > But, by the way, Derek, you know, I am missing your suttas. But I
                          > understand it if it is difficult to find time.

                          Yes, it's fun doing a whole sutta provided it's of a reasonable
                          length. Since I can't get to the internet as much as I used to, would
                          you or anyone else like to start one?

                          Derek.
                        • nina van gorkom
                          Dear Derek and Yong Peng, ... N: But I am not a webgoer either, and my Email crashes when people send me attachments, except Jim s texts. I am now thinking of
                          Message 12 of 21 , Apr 6, 2003
                            Dear Derek and Yong Peng,
                            op 05-04-2003 20:27 schreef Derek Cameron op derekacameron@...:
                            >
                            > Yes, it's fun doing a whole sutta provided it's of a reasonable
                            > length. Since I can't get to the internet as much as I used to, would
                            > you or anyone else like to start one?
                            N: But I am not a webgoer either, and my Email crashes when people send me
                            attachments, except Jim's texts. I am now thinking of something else. I
                            finished part of commentary to Mahaaraahulovaadasutta, but this is further
                            on in the Sutta than the part of the sutta we had before, on the element of
                            heat (fire). I like to coordinate with Yong Peng and decided to wait with my
                            translation.
                            I have the Pali sutta text on line (Jim gave it to me) and would like to ask
                            Yong Peng whether I can bring it here, I mean, part by part. Perhaps first
                            up to the element of air, later the element of space?
                            I know that Yong Peng is so busy now, and can we perhaps help? I realize
                            though that the three linear method also takes extra time. I wonder whether
                            you could help here, bit by bit?
                            Tomorrow I go away for three days, but I am interested to know what we can
                            do after I come back.
                            Nina.
                          • Ong Yong Peng
                            Dear Nina, Derek and friends, Yes, I would be very glad if more people join in the translation of Maharahulovada Sutta. I m sure all members will benefit from
                            Message 13 of 21 , Apr 6, 2003
                              Dear Nina, Derek and friends,

                              Yes, I would be very glad if more people join in the translation of
                              Maharahulovada Sutta. I'm sure all members will benefit from such a
                              participation. I welcome those interested to reply to this mail. If
                              we can gather just four or five persons, we can rotate among
                              ourselves to post the translation of one paragraph each week (just
                              one paragraph per person per month). If we have more participants,
                              then a lighter load each will get.

                              Nina, actually, I wanted to ask if you could do a translation (not
                              necessary word by word) of the commentary so that I can put on
                              Tipitaka.net. I'm glad to learn that you are already doing that. Yes,
                              I look forward to you putting up the work here. Please do as you see
                              fit.

                              Do have a pleasant and safe trip, Nina.

                              metta,
                              Yong Peng

                              --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote:
                              I am now thinking of something else. I finished part of commentary to
                              Mahaaraahulovaadasutta, but this is further on in the Sutta than the
                              part of the sutta we had before, on the element of heat (fire). I
                              like to coordinate with Yong Peng and decided to wait with my
                              translation.

                              I have the Pali sutta text on line (Jim gave it to me) and would like
                              to ask Yong Peng whether I can bring it here, I mean, part by part.
                              Perhaps first up to the element of air, later the element of space? I
                              know that Yong Peng is so busy now, and can we perhaps help? I
                              realize though that the three linear method also takes extra time. I
                              wonder whether you could help here, bit by bit?

                              Tomorrow I go away for three days, but I am interested to know what
                              we can do after I come back.
                            • nina van gorkom
                              Dear Yong Peng and friends, let us do it. Wo is doing what? Trilinear is important, we have many silent participants who like to start reading suttas. The PTS
                              Message 14 of 21 , Apr 10, 2003
                                Dear Yong Peng and friends,
                                let us do it. Wo is doing what?
                                Trilinear is important, we have many silent participants who like to start
                                reading suttas. The PTS translation and Wheel 101, Elephant's Footprint can
                                help us.
                                I am also thinking of the Pali week by week, but here helping you Yong Peng,
                                may still give you extra work, having to react, etc. And there is the word
                                of the week. But as to translation of these sentences, we ourselves could do
                                more.
                                Nina

                                This is the last translation on the Water Element:
                                "And what, Rahula, is the water element? The water element may be
                                internal or external. And what, Rahula, is the internal water
                                element? That, internally, and individually, is liquid, liquefied,
                                and clung to, namely: bile, phlegm, pus, blood, sweat, fat, tears,
                                tallow, saliva, snot, synovia, urine, or whatever else internally,
                                and individually, is liquid, liquefied, and clung to. This, Rahula,
                                is called the internal water element. But that very internal water
                                element and that external water element are simply water element.
                                Thus "this is not mine, this I am not, this is not myself" is to be
                                seen with right wisdom just as it is. Having seen this with right
                                wisdom just as it is, the mind is detached from and becomes
                                dispassionate towards the water element.

                                117. ``katamaa ca, raahula, vaayodhaatu?
                                /what\ |and| | element of wind|
                                And what, Rahula, is the wind element?

                                vaayodhaatu siyaa ajjhattikaa, siyaa baahiraa.
                                /internal\ /external\
                                The wind element may be internal or external.

                                katamaa ca, raahula, ajjhattikaa vaayodhaatu?
                                And what, Rahula, is the internal wind element?

                                ya.m ajjhatta.m paccatta.m vaayo vaayogata.m upaadinna.m,
                                /what\| internal||individual| |wind| |windy| |clung to|
                                That, internally, and individually, is wind, windy, and clung to.

                                (Who is next? I like to be corrected. Note: wind or motion, it has the
                                characteristic of motion or pressure.)

                                seyyathida.m -- uddha"ngamaa vaataa,
                                adhogamaa vaataa, kucchisayaa vaataa, ko.t.thaasayaa {ko.t.thasayaa } vaataa
                                , a"ngama"ngaanusaarino vaataa, assaaso passaaso, iti ya.m vaa
                                pana~n~nampi ki~nci ajjhatta.m paccatta.m vaayo vaayogata.m upaadinna.m --
                                aya.m vuccati, raahula, ajjhattikaa vaayodhaatu. yaa ceva kho pana
                                ajjhattikaa
                                vaayodhaatu yaa ca baahiraa vaayodhaatu vaayodhaaturevesaa. ta.m `neta.m
                                mama,
                                nesohamasmi , na meso attaa'ti -- evameta.m yathaabhuuta.m sammappa~n~naaya
                                da.t.thabba.m. evameta.m yathaabhuuta.m sammappa~n~naaya disvaa
                                vaayodhaatuyaa
                                nibbindati, vaayodhaatuyaa citta.m viraajeti.

                                op 06-04-2003 12:23 schreef Ong Yong Peng op ypong001@...:

                                > Yes, I would be very glad if more people join in the translation of
                                > Maharahulovada Sutta. I'm sure all members will benefit from such a
                                > participation. I welcome those interested to reply to this mail. If
                                > we can gather just four or five persons, we can rotate among
                                > ourselves to post the translation of one paragraph each week (just
                                > one paragraph per person per month). If we have more participants,
                                > then a lighter load each will get.
                                >
                              • nina van gorkom
                                Dear Yong Peng, ... N: Please, use anything you like for the net. I cannot upload myself, but did you keep the parts in an archive?If not, I kept them in my
                                Message 15 of 21 , Apr 10, 2003
                                  Dear Yong Peng,
                                  op 06-04-2003 12:23 schreef Ong Yong Peng op ypong001@...:

                                  > Nina, actually, I wanted to ask if you could do a translation (not
                                  > necessary word by word) of the commentary so that I can put on
                                  > Tipitaka.net. I'm glad to learn that you are already doing that. Yes,
                                  > I look forward to you putting up the work here. Please do as you see
                                  > fit.
                                  N: Please, use anything you like for the net. I cannot upload myself, but
                                  did you keep the parts in an archive?If not, I kept them in my doc. I can
                                  send html attachments to others, so long as I do not receive them (Email
                                  crash).
                                  History: I started to translate parts from the Thai Co, then, I received the
                                  Pali hard copy, and I still translated parts, added with summaries. Then Jim
                                  gave me the text on line and I wanted to translate every line. I did not
                                  know before I would become so involved with the text.
                                  Now my question: If you like all line by line I can go back and do it after
                                  I have gone to the end first. I would rather coordinate now with the sutta.
                                  But I like to conform to your ideas about it.
                                  Nina.
                                • Ong Yong Peng
                                  Dear Nina and friends, thanks a lot, Nina, you are the only person replying to this mail. But nevertheless, thanks very much too for everyone on the list for
                                  Message 16 of 21 , Apr 11, 2003
                                    Dear Nina and friends,

                                    thanks a lot, Nina, you are the only person replying to this mail.
                                    But nevertheless, thanks very much too for everyone on the list for
                                    the lively discussion of other topics.

                                    Nina, I would love to hear your idea of Pali week by week. However, I
                                    can't commit too much, not until I graduate from my undergraduate
                                    study in November.

                                    I am currently working on some enhancements to the site, as well as
                                    planning to put back a forum. Although Dimitry has suggested to join
                                    an existing forum, but I think in the long run, the site will need
                                    its own forum. I have removed the last Yabb forum due to web space
                                    constraints, now I am contemplating on something other than Yabb.

                                    As for sutta translation, I really appreciate your kind contribution.
                                    May I suggest that we each do just one paragraph per month. In that
                                    case, it will be something like one paragraph every two weeks,
                                    allowing for discussion in between, as well as some time for me to
                                    compile and put them online. What do you think?

                                    metta,
                                    Yong Peng

                                    --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote:
                                    Trilinear is important, we have many silent participants who like to
                                    start reading suttas. The PTS translation and Wheel 101, Elephant's
                                    Footprint can help us.

                                    I am also thinking of the Pali week by week, but here helping you
                                    Yong Peng, may still give you extra work, having to react, etc. And
                                    there is the word of the week. But as to translation of these
                                    sentences, we ourselves could do more.

                                    Nina
                                    >
                                    > This is the last translation on the Water Element:
                                    > "And what, Rahula, is the water element? The water element may be
                                    > internal or external. And what, Rahula, is the internal water
                                    > element? That, internally, and individually, is liquid, liquefied,
                                    > and clung to, namely: bile, phlegm, pus, blood, sweat, fat, tears,
                                    > tallow, saliva, snot, synovia, urine, or whatever else internally,
                                    > and individually, is liquid, liquefied, and clung to. This, Rahula,
                                    > is called the internal water element. But that very internal water
                                    > element and that external water element are simply water element.
                                    > Thus "this is not mine, this I am not, this is not myself" is to be
                                    > seen with right wisdom just as it is. Having seen this with right
                                    > wisdom just as it is, the mind is detached from and becomes
                                    > dispassionate towards the water element.
                                    >
                                    > 117. ``katamaa ca, raahula, vaayodhaatu?
                                    > /what\ |and| | element of wind|
                                    > And what, Rahula, is the wind element?
                                    >
                                    > vaayodhaatu siyaa ajjhattikaa, siyaa baahiraa.
                                    > /internal\ /external\
                                    > The wind element may be internal or external.
                                    >
                                    > katamaa ca, raahula, ajjhattikaa vaayodhaatu?
                                    > And what, Rahula, is the internal wind element?
                                    >
                                    > ya.m ajjhatta.m paccatta.m vaayo vaayogata.m upaadinna.m,
                                    > /what\| internal||individual| |wind| |windy| |clung to|
                                    > That, internally, and individually, is wind, windy, and clung to.
                                    >
                                    > (Who is next? I like to be corrected. Note: wind or motion, it has
                                    the
                                    > characteristic of motion or pressure.)
                                    >
                                    > seyyathida.m -- uddha"ngamaa vaataa,
                                    > adhogamaa vaataa, kucchisayaa vaataa, ko.t.thaasayaa
                                    {ko.t.thasayaa } vaataa
                                    > , a"ngama"ngaanusaarino vaataa, assaaso passaaso, iti ya.m vaa
                                    > pana~n~nampi ki~nci ajjhatta.m paccatta.m vaayo vaayogata.m
                                    upaadinna.m --
                                    > aya.m vuccati, raahula, ajjhattikaa vaayodhaatu. yaa ceva kho pana
                                    > ajjhattikaa
                                    > vaayodhaatu yaa ca baahiraa vaayodhaatu vaayodhaaturevesaa. ta.m
                                    `neta.m
                                    > mama,
                                    > nesohamasmi , na meso attaa'ti -- evameta.m yathaabhuuta.m
                                    sammappa~n~naaya
                                    > da.t.thabba.m. evameta.m yathaabhuuta.m sammappa~n~naaya disvaa
                                    > vaayodhaatuyaa
                                    > nibbindati, vaayodhaatuyaa citta.m viraajeti.
                                  • nina van gorkom
                                    Dear Yong Peng, op 11-04-2003 13:12 schreef Ong Yong Peng op ypong001@yahoo.com ... N: I understand the study is heavy for you. One sentence is also fine, I am
                                    Message 17 of 21 , Apr 13, 2003
                                      Dear Yong Peng,
                                      op 11-04-2003 13:12 schreef Ong Yong Peng op ypong001@...
                                      >
                                      > Nina, I would love to hear your idea of Pali week by week. However, I
                                      > can't commit too much, not until I graduate from my undergraduate
                                      > study in November.
                                      N: I understand the study is heavy for you. One sentence is also fine, I am
                                      happy with anything. Will it help you if you just prepare, but leave more
                                      work to us translating? I have the books for reference, no problem. I want
                                      my daily Pali tr. anyway, so I do not mind what it is.
                                      As to sutta: I like everybody just to see it as pleasure, not as duty. It is
                                      difficult to organize rotating on a list. Say, if I jump to it, someone else
                                      may jump at it at the same time. I enjoy teamwork more, but if this is
                                      difficult to organize I can do more if you like. Maybe some more later next
                                      week, I have some family duties first.
                                      Y: I am currently working on some enhancements to the site, as well as
                                      > planning to put back a forum. Although Dimitry has suggested to join
                                      > an existing forum, but I think in the long run, the site will need
                                      > its own forum.
                                      N: This will be very hard work and it means more mails. We are already so
                                      busy here, I feel, with the texts. I do not know what to say about it.
                                      Y: As for sutta translation, I really appreciate your kind contribution.
                                      > May I suggest that we each do just one paragraph per month. In that
                                      > case, it will be something like one paragraph every two weeks,
                                      > allowing for discussion in between, as well as some time for me to
                                      > compile and put them online. What do you think?
                                      N: is a para a sentence, or three lines? Anything you suggest. No problem.
                                      Nina.
                                    • Ong Yong Peng
                                      Dear Nina and friends, thanks for your understanding and your generous offer to help on Pali Word by Word. However, I think it is not quite fair if I were to
                                      Message 18 of 21 , Apr 14, 2003
                                        Dear Nina and friends,

                                        thanks for your understanding and your generous offer to help on Pali
                                        Word by Word. However, I think it is not quite fair if I were to just
                                        put the sentence and leave it for others to work out the translation.
                                        I would like to make the first attempt, and then invite everyone to
                                        look through and help up on the difficult parts.

                                        For sutta translation, yes, please put up more as your time permit.
                                        And, yes, sutta translation is a voluntary work (of high regard), but
                                        certainly family and individual matters do take precedence. It is
                                        actually fine whether it is one paragraph or one sentence. Although
                                        one paragraph is appropriate for most of the time, sometimes a
                                        difficult sentence is enough to start a good discussion.

                                        For the forum, it will function separately from this mailing list. A
                                        survey of current online Buddhist activites shows that there are a
                                        good number of active forums and mailing lists. So, having another
                                        one might seems sort of redundant, and therefore a waste of resource
                                        to build and maintain. Therefore, my plan for rebuilding the forum
                                        will be a slow process. Though separate, it will have to integrate
                                        into what Tipitaka.net is having currently. An active forum, as I
                                        perceive, is necessary to make Tipitaka.net an online community,
                                        though that is yet to be proven. :-)

                                        metta,
                                        Yong Peng

                                        --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote:
                                        > N: I understand the study is heavy for you. One sentence is also
                                        fine, I am happy with anything. Will it help you if you just prepare,
                                        but leave more work to us translating? I have the books for
                                        reference, no problem. I want my daily Pali tr. anyway, so I do not
                                        mind what it is.
                                        > As to sutta: I like everybody just to see it as pleasure, not as
                                        duty. It is difficult to organize rotating on a list. Say, if I jump
                                        to it, someone else may jump at it at the same time. I enjoy teamwork
                                        more, but if this is difficult to organize I can do more if you like.
                                        Maybe some more later next week, I have some family duties first.
                                        > Y: I am currently working on some enhancements to the site, as
                                        well as planning to put back a forum. Although Dimitry has suggested
                                        to join an existing forum, but I think in the long run, the site will
                                        need its own forum.
                                        > N: This will be very hard work and it means more mails. We are
                                        already so busy here, I feel, with the texts. I do not know what to
                                        say about it.
                                        > Y: As for sutta translation, I really appreciate your kind
                                        contribution. May I suggest that we each do just one paragraph per
                                        month. In that case, it will be something like one paragraph every
                                        two weeks, allowing for discussion in between, as well as some time
                                        for me to compile and put them online. What do you think?
                                        > N: is a para a sentence, or three lines? Anything you suggest. No
                                        problem.
                                      • Ong Yong Peng
                                        Dear Nina and friends, thanks. It will be great if you can provide a line by line English translation of MN62 comm. although the simplified summary form that
                                        Message 19 of 21 , Apr 18, 2003
                                          Dear Nina and friends,

                                          thanks. It will be great if you can provide a line by line English
                                          translation of MN62 comm. although the simplified summary form that
                                          you are currently doing is just as great. I am sure there are many
                                          people, including myself, who would like to see such a line by line
                                          comm.. I appreciate your generous participation and assistance, and I
                                          shall respect your decision on how to go about doing it.

                                          metta,
                                          Yong Peng

                                          --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote:
                                          Please, use anything you like for the net. I cannot upload myself,
                                          but did you keep the parts in an archive? If not, I kept them in my
                                          doc. I can send html attachments to others, so long as I do not
                                          receive them (Email crash).
                                          > History: I started to translate parts from the Thai Co, then, I
                                          received the Pali hard copy, and I still translated parts, added with
                                          summaries. Then Jim gave me the text on line and I wanted to
                                          translate every line. I did not know before I would become so
                                          involved with the text.
                                          > Now my question: If you like all line by line I can go back and do
                                          it after I have gone to the end first. I would rather coordinate now
                                          with the sutta. But I like to conform to your ideas about it.
                                        • nina van gorkom
                                          Dear Yong Peng, I am glad you put the sutta tr. together, I felt somewhat clumsy with the trilineair. As to comm. I have done in the last sets, no 6-8, a
                                          Message 20 of 21 , Apr 18, 2003
                                            Dear Yong Peng,
                                            I am glad you put the sutta tr. together, I felt somewhat clumsy with the
                                            trilineair.
                                            As to comm. I have done in the last sets, no 6-8, a litteral tr, but I have
                                            done it in groups of two or more sentences. Now I shall change to one
                                            sentence, or, do you prefer one line? A problem: how to break apart a whole
                                            sentence? One sentence may be three lines.
                                            I would rather not do a trilineair, because I have noticed with the sutta
                                            that this takes a lot of time.
                                            As I said, afterwards I can go back to the beginning and do line by line, do
                                            also those parts I had not translated, only summarized.
                                            Nina
                                            op 18-04-2003 18:05 schreef Ong Yong Peng op ypong001@...
                                            > thanks. It will be great if you can provide a line by line English
                                            > translation of MN62 comm. although the simplified summary form that
                                            > you are currently doing is just as great. I am sure there are many
                                            > people, including myself, who would like to see such a line by line
                                            > comm.. I appreciate your generous participation and assistance, and I
                                            > shall respect your decision on how to go about doing it.
                                            >
                                          • Ong Yong Peng
                                            Dear Nina and friends, thanks. It may be possible to break a sentence if there is a logical pause, usually indicated by a comma. I can t say to have a
                                            Message 21 of 21 , Apr 19, 2003
                                              Dear Nina and friends,

                                              thanks. It may be possible to break a sentence if there is a logical
                                              pause, usually indicated by a comma. I can't say to have a preference
                                              in that aspect, but for trilinear, I prefer to keep sentences apart
                                              from each other. Long sentences can be broken into several parts.

                                              metta,
                                              Yong Peng

                                              --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote:
                                              As to comm. I have done in the last sets, no 6-8, a litteral tr, but
                                              I have done it in groups of two or more sentences. Now I shall change
                                              to one sentence, or, do you prefer one line? A problem: how to break
                                              apart a whole sentence? One sentence may be three lines.
                                            Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.