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Re: [Pali] Looking for the source

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  • Piya Tan
    Dimitry, The account of the inception of the Bhikkhu.nii Order is given is the Vinaya at Cullavagga X. The exact reference is V 2:255: Since, Aananda, women
    Message 1 of 12 , Aug 3, 2001
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      Dimitry,

      The account of the inception of the Bhikkhu.nii Order is given is the Vinaya at
      Cullavagga X. The exact reference is V 2:255:

      "Since, Aananda, women have gone forth...the Holy Life will not last long, the True
      Dharma will endure for only 500 years."

      It is no fault of the women. When oil is near fire, the fire will burn on, even burn
      bigger. Then again, some fire will burn without oil, consuming other kinds of fuel.

      The Buddha conceded to Aananda's argument that women, too, can realize Sainthood, and
      as such are just as eligible as men to join the Order. This is the first and only
      case where a religious founder admits "defeat" to a follower's argument in deciding a
      major modification in his movement. It clearly shows the Buddha's human and
      compassionate side.

      P.

      Dimitry Ivakhnenko wrote:

      > Hi Pali friends,
      >
      > I have read somewhere that after first nins have been ordained and
      > bhikkhuni (nuns) sangha has been established, Buddha told that his
      > teaching would now be preserved not for 1000, but for 500 years.
      >
      > Can anyone please tell where this sutta can be found?
      >
      > Metta,
      > Dimitry
      >
      >
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    • Piya Tan
      Yes Bruce, the period of the Dharma-ending age gets longer in later texts. The study of eschatalogy is a fascinating subject with various responses and results
      Message 2 of 12 , Aug 3, 2001
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        Yes Bruce, the period of the Dharma-ending age gets longer in later texts. The study
        of eschatalogy is a fascinating subject with various responses and results in
        Bdudhist history, such as the rise of millennial cults.

        P.

        Bruce Burrill wrote:

        > Vin. Cv Kh. 10; AN VII 51. And in the commentaries to these texts, it
        > states that the Dhamma will last five
        > thousand years rather than five hundred. Sp 1291. Mp IV 136f.
        >
        > At 05:28 PM 8/3/01 +0300, you wrote:
        > >Hi Pali friends,
        > >
        > >I have read somewhere that after first nins have been ordained and
        > >bhikkhuni (nuns) sangha has been established, Buddha told that his
        > >teaching would now be preserved not for 1000, but for 500 years.
        > >
        > >Can anyone please tell where this sutta can be found?
        > >
        > >Metta,
        > >Dimitry
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
        > >Yahoo! Groups members can set their delivery options to daily digest or
        > >web only.
        > >[Homepage] http://www.tipitaka.net
        > >[Discussion] http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Pali
        > >[Send Message] Pali@yahoogroups.com
        > >[Moderator] Pali-owner@yahoogroups.com
        > >
        > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
        >
        >
        > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
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        > [Homepage] http://www.tipitaka.net
        > [Discussion] http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Pali
        > [Send Message] Pali@yahoogroups.com
        > [Moderator] Pali-owner@yahoogroups.com
        >
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      • Derek Cameron
        Hi, Dimitry, According to Bhikkhu Bodhi s report on the commentary, Channa s agitation and annihilationist views were due to his not having done the
        Message 3 of 12 , Aug 6, 2001
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          Hi, Dimitry,

          According to Bhikkhu Bodhi's report on the commentary, Channa's agitation
          and annihilationist views were due to his not having done the preliminary
          steps in the right order.

          MN 107 seems to give precise instructions -- no?

          For those who don't have easy access to the texts, I'll give a summary of
          the sequential method the Buddha teaches in MN 107.

          The brahmin after whom MN 107 is named, Ga.naka Moggallaana, requests the
          Buddha's instruction on the gradual, step-by-step method of training.

          Firstly, says the Buddha, the brahmin is to practice virtuous conduct.

          Then he is to keep his sense-doors guarded -- i.e., he must not grasp at his
          sense perceptions.

          After this, he is to practice eating in moderation. Then he is to practice
          sleeping in moderation.

          Then he is to practice mindfulness while walking, eating, etc. -- in other
          words, everyday practice, and NOT sit-down mindfulness practice of the
          Satipa.t.thaana Sutta.

          Once mindfulness is established, he sits down for formal samaadhi
          meditation.

          He begins by working on abandoning the five hindrances.

          And only then does he enter the jhaana-s -- in order, of course.

          In MN 61 the Buddha, talking to Raahula, gives more detailed instructions on
          how to work on practicing virtuous conduct.

          Is that what you want to do -- take MN 107 as a skeleton, and then flesh out
          the details from other sutta-s?

          Derek.
        • ������� ��������� (Dimitry Ivakhnenko)
          Hi, Derek, DC According to Bhikkhu Bodhi s report on the commentary, Channa s agitation DC and annihilationist views were due to his not having done the
          Message 4 of 12 , Aug 6, 2001
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            Hi, Derek,

            DC> According to Bhikkhu Bodhi's report on the commentary, Channa's agitation
            DC> and annihilationist views were due to his not having done the preliminary
            DC> steps in the right order.

            Thank you once again for the details. Does Bhikkhu Bodhi suggest the
            right order?

            DC> MN 107 seems to give precise instructions -- no?

            Not too detailed.

            DC> For those who don't have easy access to the texts, I'll give a summary of
            DC> the sequential method the Buddha teaches in MN 107.

            By the way, it is available at
            http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn107.html
            Similar sequence is described at DN 1-13
            http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/digha/dn2.html
            http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/digha/dn11.html
            http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/digha/dn12.html

            DC> Then he is to practice mindfulness while walking, eating, etc. -- in other
            DC> words, everyday practice, and NOT sit-down mindfulness practice of the
            DC> Satipa.t.thaana Sutta.

            There is much to be discussed about the differences and similarities
            between popular modern approaches and approaches described in the Tipitaka.

            DC> Is that what you want to do -- take MN 107 as a skeleton, and then flesh out
            DC> the details from other sutta-s?

            I have done something like this on 'Dhamma Wheel' Russian-language
            Theravada site http://users.iptelecom.net.ua/~koleso/dharma/ .
            However such approach is a bit artificial and involves the whole
            Tipitaka.

            The live thread of gradual Rahula's training has a natural integrity,
            and Buddha's advices to his son are amazingly clear and deep. Thus the
            whole Rahula's path is very inspirational and inviting to walk it out.

            Other descriptions of the path can serve to determine the original
            sequence of Buddha's advices to Rahula, and arrange them in the proper
            order. Though commentaries also have much to say about the age of
            Rahula when he was given particular advice. For example, I have read
            that MN 61 Ambalatthikarahulovada Sutta
            http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn61.html
            was given to Rahula when he was seven years old.

            'Oral revelation' is also included in this sequence at MN 147
            Cuularaahulovaada sutta.m with a translation at
            http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/2Majjhima-Nikaya/Majjhima3/147-cularahulovada-e.htm

            Such a picture of a trodden path would require a moderate amount of
            work to compose it and would serve as an inspiring real-life example.

            Dimitry
          • Derek Cameron
            Dimitry, Interesting project ... From Father to Son: The Buddha s Training of Raahula. If you can get together a minimum of 5,000 words, the Buddhist
            Message 5 of 12 , Aug 6, 2001
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              Dimitry,

              Interesting project ... "From Father to Son: The Buddha's Training of
              Raahula." If you can get together a minimum of 5,000 words, the Buddhist
              Publication Society might consider publishing it (if it hasn't already been
              done). Query Bhikkhu Bodhi, Editor, Buddhist Publication Society, 54
              Sangharaja Mawatha, P.O. Box 61, Kady, SRI LANKA.

              As for Channa ... Bhikkhu Bodhi writes in his note 181 on Channa, AN 22.90:

              QUOTE

              Atha ko carahi me attaa ["but then who is my Self?" the question that
              occurred to Channa]

              Spk [Saaratthappakaasinii, Sa.myutta Nikaaya-a.t.thakathaa]: It is said that
              this elder had started to practice insight meditation without having done
              discernment of conditions. His weak insight could not eliminate the grip of
              self (attagaaha), and thus when formations appeared to him as empty,
              agitation arose in him along with the annihilationist view, "I will be
              annihilated, I will be destroyed." He saw himself falling into an abyss.

              ...

              Discernment of conditions (paccaya-pariggaha) is a stage in the development
              of insight in which the meditator explores the conditions of the five
              aggregates (see Vism., chap. 19). In the proper sequence of development this
              stage should precede investigation of the aggregates as impermanent,
              suffering, and nonself.

              END QUOTE

              You can probably find the relevant passage from the commentary -- in Pali,
              of course! -- if you visit http://www.tipitaka.org


              Derek.
            • ������� ��������� (Dimitry Ivakhnenko)
              Derek and all friends, DC Interesting project ... From Father to Son: The Buddha s Training of DC Raahula. If you can get together a minimum of 5,000
              Message 6 of 12 , Aug 6, 2001
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                Derek and all friends,

                DC> Interesting project ... "From Father to Son: The Buddha's Training of
                DC> Raahula." If you can get together a minimum of 5,000 words, the Buddhist
                DC> Publication Society might consider publishing it (if it hasn't already been
                DC> done). Query Bhikkhu Bodhi, Editor, Buddhist Publication Society, 54
                DC> Sangharaja Mawatha, P.O. Box 61, Kady, SRI LANKA.

                Hey, the goal here is not to get together some amount of words or to
                publish something on paper under some name or another.
                Every moment of translation is a moment of living contact with those who
                wrote the texts, a moment of learning.
                Every moment of translation is a moment of living contact with those
                who read the texts, a moment of conveying knowledge.

                This project is as much open as it can be, with no limits or set
                rules, a living exploration of Buddha's teaching, so everyone is
                invited to make a contribution, and the result will be exactly as good
                as wisdom, patience and lovingkindness invested in it.

                I really enjoy the work we do here at this group, and the natural
                expression of it is sharing goals, so that we will be able to
                cooperate.

                DC> Discernment of conditions (paccaya-pariggaha) is a stage in the development
                DC> of insight in which the meditator explores the conditions of the five
                DC> aggregates (see Vism., chap. 19). In the proper sequence of development this
                DC> stage should precede investigation of the aggregates as impermanent,
                DC> suffering, and nonself.

                You know, the prerequisites described by Buddha in Meghiya sutta
                http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/udana/ud4-1.html
                are much more comrehensible and practical.

                DC> You can probably find the relevant passage from the commentary -- in Pali,
                DC> of course! -- if you visit http://www.tipitaka.org

                Well, thanks to Vipassana Research Institute they are included on
                Chattha Sangayana CD that they have sent me. So there is no problem,
                just learning this language called Pali ... :)

                Dimitry
              • Derek Cameron
                Hi, Dimitry, ... Yes, I enjoy the translation too, and the learning in group, but I also like to share my enjoyment with others. For example, maybe John
                Message 7 of 12 , Aug 6, 2001
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                  Hi, Dimitry,

                  > I really enjoy the work we do here at this group, and the natural
                  > expression of it is sharing goals, so that we will be able to
                  > cooperate.

                  Yes, I enjoy the translation too, and the learning in group, but I also like
                  to share my enjoyment with others. For example, maybe John Bullitt would
                  like our AN 7.7.8 translation for his Access to Insight site?

                  > You know, the prerequisites described by Buddha in Meghiya sutta
                  > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/udana/ud4-1.html
                  > are much more comrehensible and practical.

                  Well ... that's the difference between Buddhaghosa and the Sutta-s!

                  > thanks to Vipassana Research Institute they are included on
                  > Chattha Sangayana CD that they have sent me.

                  Oh, you got the CD-ROM? I was wondering how to order it, so for now I just
                  use their website.


                  Derek.
                • ������� ��������� (Dimitry Ivakhnenko)
                  Hi, Derek, DC Yes, I enjoy the translation too, and the learning in group, but I also like DC to share my enjoyment with others. For example, maybe John
                  Message 8 of 12 , Aug 6, 2001
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                    Hi, Derek,

                    DC> Yes, I enjoy the translation too, and the learning in group, but I also like
                    DC> to share my enjoyment with others. For example, maybe John Bullitt would
                    DC> like our AN 7.7.8 translation for his Access to Insight site?

                    It would be an honor. Can someone knowledgeable check the translation
                    before release? Or is there some translation to be compared with?

                    I have been told that there is an unorthodox translation available at
                    http://www.buddhadust.org/dcforum/DCForumID5/8.html

                    and that 'torture being spoken of in the bit about the rope, is one where
                    a rope is looped around the limb, a stick is inserted in the loop and
                    twisted...not that the rope is used as a saw.'

                    On the same site there is an interesting page
                    http://www.buddhadust.org/dcforum/DCForumID1/13.html#1
                    including some alternative versions of Buddhist terms.

                    For example, 'aggikhandha' can indeed be translated as 'pile of fire'.

                    Dimitry
                  • Dimitry A. Ivakhnenko (������� ���������
                    Dear Pali friends, Does anybody know where to find a sutta in which venerable Ananda talks with Buddha about the powers of Tathagata, and Buddha reveals that
                    Message 9 of 12 , Sep 14, 2003
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                      Dear Pali friends,

                      Does anybody know where to find a sutta in which venerable Ananda talks with Buddha
                      about the powers of Tathagata, and Buddha reveals that Tathagata even
                      thinks consciously?

                      Thank you in advance,

                      Dimitry
                    • Frank Kuan
                      ... This is probably not the one you re referring to, but perhaps it s grouped in the same section as this: [S LI.22] Ananda: Venerable sir, does the Blessed
                      Message 10 of 12 , Sep 14, 2003
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                        --- "Dimitry A. Ivakhnenko (������� ����������
                        ���������)" <koleso@...> wrote:
                        > Dear Pali friends,
                        >
                        > Does anybody know where to find a sutta in which
                        > venerable Ananda talks with Buddha
                        > about the powers of Tathagata, and Buddha reveals
                        > that Tathagata even
                        > thinks consciously?
                        >
                        > Thank you in advance,
                        >
                        > Dimitry
                        >

                        This is probably not the one you're referring to, but
                        perhaps it's grouped in the same section as this:
                        [S LI.22] Ananda: Venerable sir, does the Blessed One
                        have direct experience of going to the Brahma world by
                        means of supranormal power with a mind-made body? The
                        Buddha: Yes, Ananda...
                        Ananda: But does the Blessed One also have direct
                        experience of going to the Brahma world by means of
                        supranormal power with this very physical body,
                        composed of the four great elements?
                        The Buddha: Yes...

                        >
                        >


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