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Re: Pali Word by Word 2003/09 [003]

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  • Ong Yong Peng <ypong001@yahoo.com>
    Dear Nina and friends, thanks a lot. (3) DN31 Sigalovada Sutta para.245 [PTS3.181] Imassa cattaaro kammakilesaa pahiinaa hontii ti Thanks for the explanation
    Message 1 of 251 , Mar 4, 2003
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      Dear Nina and friends,

      thanks a lot.

      (3) DN31 Sigalovada Sutta para.245 [PTS3.181]
      Imassa cattaaro kammakilesaa pahiinaa hontii"ti

      Thanks for the explanation on pahiinaa.

      Thanks also for pointing out the mistake on imassa. Can I say it is
      genitive - "his"? On the other hand, it may be dative - "for him".
      What do you think?

      For "kammakilesaa", I am not sure if it is a dvanda compound. I
      refer to Practical Grammar of the Pali Language by Charles
      Duroiselle. According to the book ยง542-543, if "kammakilesaa" is a
      dvanda compound, it would mean "kammaa ca kilesaa" - actions and
      defilements.

      However, if it is kilesa, defilement, that motivates kamma, conduct.
      Then "action due to defilement" or "action of defilement" is a
      reasonable translation. Two other possible renderings I can think of
      are: "unwholesome action", a common term that may refer to something
      else in Pali; "act of defilement", if kamma can also refers to "act".

      Under the entry "kamma" in PED (pg139), its explanation for kamma-
      kilesaa is "depravity of action, bad works". To me, "bad works" does
      not really reflect the original Buddhist idea, and "depravity of
      action" seems to refer to a condition of 'action' rather
      than 'action' alone. What do you think?

      For (5) Dhammapada 63
      baalo ca pa.n.ditamaanii sa ve "baalo"ti vuccati
      Would this be better? - And a fool, [who is] proud of his
      cleverness, he is called "fool" indeed.

      metta,
      Yong Peng

      --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote:
      > kammakilesa - kamma (action, deed) + kilesa (lust, impurity):
      action of defilement, vice;
      Nina: kammakilesaa seems to me a pure dvanda compound, let's ask
      Derek. We accumulate kamma and kilesa, I cannot see a genetive
      relation, although I see in the PTS tr. : four vices of conduct.
      Or: four vices in conduct. In short: they are distinct. Asava,
      intoxicant, is a group of defilements we accumulate. Kilesa that is
      accumulated in the past conditions similar kilesa today and also it
      can motivate akusala kamma today. Kamma, usually action, is
      accumulated and conditions vipaaka, another type of condition.
      Kilesa is often translated as defilement, but it can also be tr. as
      vice. Here it could be: kilesa, defilement, that motivates kamma,
      conduct.

      In the next para in the verse, four motives for bad conduct are
      named and they seem to be included in lobha (partiality), dosa (hate
      or fear) and dullness (moha).

      I checked the Co I have in Pali : <kamma-kileso ti kamma~nca ta.m
      kilesa-sampayuttattaa kileso caati kamma-kileso. Sakileso yeva hi
      ana.m hanati, nikkileso na hanati. Tasmaa paa.naatipaato kamma-
      kileso ti vutto.

      Thus, kamma is accompanied (sampayutta) by kilesa, one would not
      kill without there being kilesa. That is why it is said kamma-
      kileso. I had to look this up, because to me it was strange: kamma-
      kileso.

      Now we have: imassa: of him ? Is genitive or dative.
      > pahiina - eradicated, eliminated, destroyed (pajahati p.p.);
      > ???I am not sure why the word is "pahiinaa" instead of "pahiina".
      Is it due to sandhi?
      N: The first part of the dvanda is stem, the second one has the
      declination, and pahiinaa follows the second one. Belongs to kilesaa.

      > (5) Dhammapada 63
      > baalo ca pa.n.ditamaanii sa ve "baalo"ti vuccati
      > fool / and / proud of his cleverness / he / indeed / fool / is
      called
      > And a fool, [who is] proud of his cleverness, he is indeed called
      a fool.
      >
      > pa.n.dita - (adj.) wise, clever, intelligent;
      > maanin - (adj.) proud (of);
      > pa.n.ditamaanin - (adj.) proud of one's own cleverness;
      > ti - in this case, the word is an emphatic part [PED iti].
      N: ve: indeed, truly. I had to look that up.
      the ti: no, I think he is called: "fool":, thus, even one word can
      be like a quote, or the contents of what we say. Thus, it is the
      same as a whole sentence that is a quote, or what someone thinks or
      says, followed by ti.
    • Ong Yong Peng
      Dear Nina and friends, thanks for that, Nina. metta, Yong Peng ... again. ... N: 28: Now what think you Pukusa, which is the more difficult thing to do or to
      Message 251 of 251 , Mar 31, 2004
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        Dear Nina and friends,

        thanks for that, Nina.

        metta,
        Yong Peng

        --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote:
        > would you tell us roughly what the comparison is about? Thanks
        again.
        > what in comparison, lord, can these five hundred carts do... etc.
        > Wheel 67-69: What, O lord, are five hundred carts- nay six, seven...
        > etc...compared with this?
        N:
        28: Now what think you Pukusa, which is the more difficult thing to
        do or to meet with - that a man, being conscious and awake, should
        neither see , nor hear the sound of five hundred cars passing by...or
        that a man, being conscious and awake, should neither see, nor hear
        the sound thereof when the falling rain goes on beating splashing,
        and the lightnings are flashing forth, and the thunderbolts are
        crashing?

        We read, <Then, Pukkusa, the thought occurred to that man:- "How
        wonderful a thing it is, and marvellous, that those who have gone
        forth out of the world should pass their time in a state of mind so
        calm!-...">

        Thus, it is more difficult not to hear the sound of rain and thunder,
        but this occurs when a high degree of calm is reached.
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