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Re: Ud I.4 7th, 8th and 9th and Commentary

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  • Derek Cameron <derekacameron@yahoo.com>
    Hi, Nina, ... Yes! I started looking at the commentary as you suggested for a word I was interested in (eka-palla nkena) but that in turn raised more
    Message 1 of 11 , Mar 3, 2003
      Hi, Nina,

      > As always, there are many points, even in a few lines. Interesting
      > to go into it.

      Yes! I started looking at the commentary as you suggested for a word
      I was interested in (eka-palla"nkena) but that in turn raised more
      questions!

      I've put the translation up as it currently stands in the files
      section at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Pali/files/ud1-04.htm

      In the meantime I'd like to take another look at the final sentence,
      especially the word yassussadaa, as it troubles me a bit.

      > Now, yassussadaa natthi kuhiñci loketi. The last sentence: ussadaa,
      meaning
      > excessive: Co has: preponderance:< he for whom there are no
      preponderances,
      > viz. the preponderance of lust, the preponderance of hatred, ... of
      > delusion,... of conceit, and the preponderance or (wrong) view, with
      > repespect to anything, even with respect to a single object, amids
      the
      > entire cohabitants of this world, even, meaning (he for whom these
      > preponderances) are abandoned without remainder.


      Derek.
    • nina van gorkom
      Dear Derek, op 03-03-2003 22:51 schreef Derek Cameron op ... N: I looked in the Co (Masefield): in a single crosslegged position.
      Message 2 of 11 , Mar 4, 2003
        Dear Derek,

        op 03-03-2003 22:51 schreef Derek Cameron <derekacameron@...> op
        derekacameron@...:

        > Yes! I started looking at the commentary as you suggested for a word
        > I was interested in (eka-palla"nkena) but that in turn raised more
        > questions!
        N: I looked in the Co (Masefield): in a single crosslegged position.

        > In the meantime I'd like to take another look at the final sentence,
        > especially the word yassussadaa, as it troubles me a bit.
        N: yassa ussadaa: of whom or for whom... ussadaa: as in Co.
      • Derek Cameron <derekacameron@yahoo.com>
        Hi, Nina, ... Thanks for looking that up. I was going to ask you what Peter Masefield had for it, but I didn t want to impose on you! The PED gives palla nka
        Message 3 of 11 , Mar 4, 2003
          Hi, Nina,

          > N: I looked in the Co (Masefield): in a single crosslegged
          > position.

          Thanks for looking that up. I was going to ask you what Peter
          Masefield had for it, but I didn't want to impose on you!

          The PED gives palla"nka (without the eka- prefix) as cross-legged, so
          eka-palla"nka would seem to mean something different from just
          palla"nka on its own.

          The derivation the PED gives is from pari + a"nka. a"nka means a hook
          or bend. The PED says that the Magadhi form is paliyan"nka (although
          I don't know how they would know the Magadhi form, as opposed to the
          Pali form -- would the word be on the Asokan inscriptions?).

          Anyway eka-palla"nka would be literally something like "one-around-
          hooked" or "one-around-bent."

          To me that suggests a "half-lotus" as opposed to a full-lotus
          position. Perhaps something similar to the way Buddha statues are
          depicted nowadays.

          > N: yassa ussadaa: of whom or for whom... ussadaa: as in Co.

          The PED notes that ussada is a troublesome word. The meanings it
          gives have a sense of "out-sticking" or "out-pouring." So perhaps:

          yassussadaa natthi kuhiñci loketi

          "for whom" (yassa) "there are not" (natthi) "inclinations"
          (ussadaa) "for anything" (kuhiñci) "in the world" (loke).

          Derek.
        • nina van gorkom
          Hi Derek, op 04-03-2003 20:16 schreef Derek Cameron op ... N: You never impose when it concerns texts of the teachings, questions,
          Message 4 of 11 , Mar 6, 2003
            Hi Derek,
            op 04-03-2003 20:16 schreef Derek Cameron <derekacameron@...> op
            derekacameron@...:

            > Thanks for looking that up. I was going to ask you what Peter
            > Masefield had for it, but I didn't want to impose on you!
            N: You never impose when it concerns texts of the teachings, questions,
            looking things up, I profit from this.
            D: The PED gives palla"nka (without the eka- prefix) as cross-legged, so
            > eka-palla"nka would seem to mean something different from just
            > palla"nka on its own.
            >
            > The derivation the PED gives is from pari + a"nka. a"nka means a hook
            > or bend. The PED says that the Magadhi form is paliyan"nka (although
            > I don't know how they would know the Magadhi form, as opposed to the
            > Pali form -- would the word be on the Asokan inscriptions?).
            > Anyway eka-palla"nka would be literally something like "one-around-
            > hooked" or "one-around-bent."
            N: Interesting this deviation. Now with eka: As I see it, this refers to
            one sitting at a stretch for a long time, namely, after the Buddha's
            enlightenment he was contemplating, sitting in one position.
            This is very interesting, see Vinaya (IV Mahaavagga, tr by Horner. In some
            annotations, it is vol I), she says she followed the Udaana tr. :
            <At one time ... Then the Lord sat cross-legged in one (posture) for seven
            days at the foot of the Tree of Awakening experiencing the bliss of freedom
            (vimuttisukha).>
            Note to one posture: eka-palla"nkena.
            >
            >D: The PED notes that ussada is a troublesome word. The meanings it
            > gives have a sense of "out-sticking" or "out-pouring." So perhaps:
            >
            > yassussadaa natthi kuhiñci loketi
            >
            > "for whom" (yassa) "there are not" (natthi) "inclinations"
            > (ussadaa) "for anything" (kuhiñci) "in the world" (loke).
            N: The Co indicates that these ussadas are all the defilements.
            "preponderants" or excesses. It names the lobha, dosa, di.t.thi, maana, etc.
            kuhi.m is where, not: for anything.
            Nina.
          • Derek Cameron
            Hi, Nina, ... Thank you! I also like to really go into things, when time allows. ... Oh, so that s it. I hadn t thought of that angle at all. Eka- palla nkena
            Message 5 of 11 , Mar 6, 2003
              Hi, Nina,

              > > Thanks for looking that up. I was going to ask you what Peter
              > > Masefield had for it, but I didn't want to impose on you!

              > N: You never impose when it concerns texts of the teachings,
              > questions, looking things up, I profit from this.

              Thank you! I also like to really go into things, when time allows.

              > > Anyway eka-palla"nka would be literally something like
              > > "one-around-hooked" or "one-around-bent."

              > N: Interesting this deviation. Now with eka: As I see it, this
              > refers to one sitting at a stretch for a long time, namely, after
              > the Buddha's enlightenment he was contemplating, sitting in one
              > position.

              Oh, so that's it. I hadn't thought of that angle at all. Eka-
              palla"nkena as sort of "one-sitting," i.e., one session.

              > N: The Co indicates that these ussadas are all the defilements.
              > "preponderants" or excesses. It names the lobha, dosa, di.t.thi,
              > maana, etc.

              I see what you mean ... something that sticks out, something that is
              excessive, something done to excess, a preponderant characteristic of
              the individual ... I can't find a way in English of conveying exactly
              that all in one word though.

              Derek.
            • Lars
              ... things ? ... About papa as evil see the the very interesting article by L.S. Cousins: http://jbe.gold.ac.uk/3/cousins1.html (The part about papa and
              Message 6 of 11 , Mar 8, 2003
                --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom <nilo@e...> wrote:
                > >
                > >> A brahman who has abandoned defilements,
                > >
                > > "abandoned defilements" for the more literal "rejected sinful
                things"?
                > N: papa: evil, yes, what you say is O.K.

                About papa as "evil" see the the very interesting article by L.S.
                Cousins: http://jbe.gold.ac.uk/3/cousins1.html (The part about papa
                and pu~n~na is a bit further down)

                Greetings
                Lars
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