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Re: [Pali] Re: Ud I.4 7th, 8th and 9th and Commentary

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  • nina van gorkom
    Hi, Derek, op 03-03-2003 00:23 schreef Derek Cameron op ... N: Things is not so good, better: factors. which are the factors..
    Message 1 of 11 , Mar 3, 2003
      Hi, Derek,
      op 03-03-2003 00:23 schreef Derek Cameron <derekacameron@...> op
      derekacameron@...:
      >
      >>> katame ca pana braahma.na-kara.naa dhammaati?
      >
      >> and moreover, which are the things (dhammas) that make one a
      >> brahman?
      >
      > That's an interesting reading of it -- dhammaa as "things."
      N: Things is not so good, better: factors. which are the factors..
      Woodward: what are the things...
      D: I had read it as "in what way" (katame) are "a brahmin's actions"
      > (braahma.na-kara.naa) "morally good" (dhammaa). So, dhamma in the
      > sense of "in accordance with the good," "morally good," "virtuous."
      dhamma: can be very wide. I did not think of kusala here.
      katama is which.
      >> udaana: exclamation of knowledge and joy (Masefield: euphoria)
      >
      > I hadn't picked up on the idea that "udaana" had a sense of joy about
      > it. Maybe "joyous exclamation"
      N: to me it has something abundant , abundant with enthusiasm.
      >>> "Yo braahma.no baahita-paapa-dhammo nihu.mhu"nko
      >>> nikkasaavo yatatto vedantaguu vuusita-brahma-cariyo
      >
      >> A brahman who has abandoned defilements,
      >
      > "abandoned defilements" for the more literal "rejected sinful things"?
      N: papa: evil, yes, what you say is O.K.
      >> who is not a grumbler,
      >> free from impurity, self-restrained,
      >> who excels in the vedas
      >
      > I had vedantaguu as something liked "of highest wisdom."
      N: This must be the meaning. Speaking to a brahman the vedas are meaningful,
      but now: veda in a higher sense, like Tivedha. The Buddha gave a higher
      sense to certain notions people had, so that they would grasp the deeper
      meaning.
      >> and lives the brahman life,
      >
      > For vuusita-brahma-cariyo I thought maybe "perfected in the holy
      > life" or "perfected in celibacy"
      N: brahmacariya: in a narrower sense: celibacy of recluses, in a wider
      sense: all who develop the eightfold Path. It is often tr. as divine life,
      godly life, holy life. Vuusita: lived.
      As always, there are many points, even in a few lines. Interesting to go
      into it.
      Just now I looked up the Co, tr by Masefield, and again it helps us:
      <brama.nakara.naa: they are making one a brahmin... meaning producing the
      state of a brahmin.>
      ...It is said that he did not teach that brahmin Dhamma because he was
      unreceptive to Dhamma teaching.
      <Whoever be a brahmin (yo braahma.no):whoever, on account of that state in
      which evil has been ousted, be a brahmin...> <being no "Hum hum" type >
      <"Veda- end- gone" on account of the fact of his being gone, by means of the
      Vedas reckoned as the knowledges associated with the four paths, to the end,
      to the culmination, of the formations, to nibbaana, or alternatively to the
      end of the (three) Vedas, being one who has lived the Brahmacariya ...>
      Now, yassussadaa natthi kuhiñci loketi. The last sentence: ussadaa, meaning
      excessive: Co has: preponderance:< he for whom there are no preponderances,
      viz. the preponderance of lust, the preponderance of hatred, ... of
      delusion,... of conceit, and the preponderance or (wrong) view, with
      repespect to anything, even with respect to a single object, amids the
      entire cohabitants of this world, even, meaning (he for whom these
      preponderances) are abandoned without remainder.>
      Nina
    • Derek Cameron <derekacameron@yahoo.com>
      Hi, Nina, ... Yes! I started looking at the commentary as you suggested for a word I was interested in (eka-palla nkena) but that in turn raised more
      Message 2 of 11 , Mar 3, 2003
        Hi, Nina,

        > As always, there are many points, even in a few lines. Interesting
        > to go into it.

        Yes! I started looking at the commentary as you suggested for a word
        I was interested in (eka-palla"nkena) but that in turn raised more
        questions!

        I've put the translation up as it currently stands in the files
        section at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Pali/files/ud1-04.htm

        In the meantime I'd like to take another look at the final sentence,
        especially the word yassussadaa, as it troubles me a bit.

        > Now, yassussadaa natthi kuhiñci loketi. The last sentence: ussadaa,
        meaning
        > excessive: Co has: preponderance:< he for whom there are no
        preponderances,
        > viz. the preponderance of lust, the preponderance of hatred, ... of
        > delusion,... of conceit, and the preponderance or (wrong) view, with
        > repespect to anything, even with respect to a single object, amids
        the
        > entire cohabitants of this world, even, meaning (he for whom these
        > preponderances) are abandoned without remainder.


        Derek.
      • nina van gorkom
        Dear Derek, op 03-03-2003 22:51 schreef Derek Cameron op ... N: I looked in the Co (Masefield): in a single crosslegged position.
        Message 3 of 11 , Mar 4, 2003
          Dear Derek,

          op 03-03-2003 22:51 schreef Derek Cameron <derekacameron@...> op
          derekacameron@...:

          > Yes! I started looking at the commentary as you suggested for a word
          > I was interested in (eka-palla"nkena) but that in turn raised more
          > questions!
          N: I looked in the Co (Masefield): in a single crosslegged position.

          > In the meantime I'd like to take another look at the final sentence,
          > especially the word yassussadaa, as it troubles me a bit.
          N: yassa ussadaa: of whom or for whom... ussadaa: as in Co.
        • Derek Cameron <derekacameron@yahoo.com>
          Hi, Nina, ... Thanks for looking that up. I was going to ask you what Peter Masefield had for it, but I didn t want to impose on you! The PED gives palla nka
          Message 4 of 11 , Mar 4, 2003
            Hi, Nina,

            > N: I looked in the Co (Masefield): in a single crosslegged
            > position.

            Thanks for looking that up. I was going to ask you what Peter
            Masefield had for it, but I didn't want to impose on you!

            The PED gives palla"nka (without the eka- prefix) as cross-legged, so
            eka-palla"nka would seem to mean something different from just
            palla"nka on its own.

            The derivation the PED gives is from pari + a"nka. a"nka means a hook
            or bend. The PED says that the Magadhi form is paliyan"nka (although
            I don't know how they would know the Magadhi form, as opposed to the
            Pali form -- would the word be on the Asokan inscriptions?).

            Anyway eka-palla"nka would be literally something like "one-around-
            hooked" or "one-around-bent."

            To me that suggests a "half-lotus" as opposed to a full-lotus
            position. Perhaps something similar to the way Buddha statues are
            depicted nowadays.

            > N: yassa ussadaa: of whom or for whom... ussadaa: as in Co.

            The PED notes that ussada is a troublesome word. The meanings it
            gives have a sense of "out-sticking" or "out-pouring." So perhaps:

            yassussadaa natthi kuhiñci loketi

            "for whom" (yassa) "there are not" (natthi) "inclinations"
            (ussadaa) "for anything" (kuhiñci) "in the world" (loke).

            Derek.
          • nina van gorkom
            Hi Derek, op 04-03-2003 20:16 schreef Derek Cameron op ... N: You never impose when it concerns texts of the teachings, questions,
            Message 5 of 11 , Mar 6, 2003
              Hi Derek,
              op 04-03-2003 20:16 schreef Derek Cameron <derekacameron@...> op
              derekacameron@...:

              > Thanks for looking that up. I was going to ask you what Peter
              > Masefield had for it, but I didn't want to impose on you!
              N: You never impose when it concerns texts of the teachings, questions,
              looking things up, I profit from this.
              D: The PED gives palla"nka (without the eka- prefix) as cross-legged, so
              > eka-palla"nka would seem to mean something different from just
              > palla"nka on its own.
              >
              > The derivation the PED gives is from pari + a"nka. a"nka means a hook
              > or bend. The PED says that the Magadhi form is paliyan"nka (although
              > I don't know how they would know the Magadhi form, as opposed to the
              > Pali form -- would the word be on the Asokan inscriptions?).
              > Anyway eka-palla"nka would be literally something like "one-around-
              > hooked" or "one-around-bent."
              N: Interesting this deviation. Now with eka: As I see it, this refers to
              one sitting at a stretch for a long time, namely, after the Buddha's
              enlightenment he was contemplating, sitting in one position.
              This is very interesting, see Vinaya (IV Mahaavagga, tr by Horner. In some
              annotations, it is vol I), she says she followed the Udaana tr. :
              <At one time ... Then the Lord sat cross-legged in one (posture) for seven
              days at the foot of the Tree of Awakening experiencing the bliss of freedom
              (vimuttisukha).>
              Note to one posture: eka-palla"nkena.
              >
              >D: The PED notes that ussada is a troublesome word. The meanings it
              > gives have a sense of "out-sticking" or "out-pouring." So perhaps:
              >
              > yassussadaa natthi kuhiñci loketi
              >
              > "for whom" (yassa) "there are not" (natthi) "inclinations"
              > (ussadaa) "for anything" (kuhiñci) "in the world" (loke).
              N: The Co indicates that these ussadas are all the defilements.
              "preponderants" or excesses. It names the lobha, dosa, di.t.thi, maana, etc.
              kuhi.m is where, not: for anything.
              Nina.
            • Derek Cameron
              Hi, Nina, ... Thank you! I also like to really go into things, when time allows. ... Oh, so that s it. I hadn t thought of that angle at all. Eka- palla nkena
              Message 6 of 11 , Mar 6, 2003
                Hi, Nina,

                > > Thanks for looking that up. I was going to ask you what Peter
                > > Masefield had for it, but I didn't want to impose on you!

                > N: You never impose when it concerns texts of the teachings,
                > questions, looking things up, I profit from this.

                Thank you! I also like to really go into things, when time allows.

                > > Anyway eka-palla"nka would be literally something like
                > > "one-around-hooked" or "one-around-bent."

                > N: Interesting this deviation. Now with eka: As I see it, this
                > refers to one sitting at a stretch for a long time, namely, after
                > the Buddha's enlightenment he was contemplating, sitting in one
                > position.

                Oh, so that's it. I hadn't thought of that angle at all. Eka-
                palla"nkena as sort of "one-sitting," i.e., one session.

                > N: The Co indicates that these ussadas are all the defilements.
                > "preponderants" or excesses. It names the lobha, dosa, di.t.thi,
                > maana, etc.

                I see what you mean ... something that sticks out, something that is
                excessive, something done to excess, a preponderant characteristic of
                the individual ... I can't find a way in English of conveying exactly
                that all in one word though.

                Derek.
              • Lars
                ... things ? ... About papa as evil see the the very interesting article by L.S. Cousins: http://jbe.gold.ac.uk/3/cousins1.html (The part about papa and
                Message 7 of 11 , Mar 8, 2003
                  --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom <nilo@e...> wrote:
                  > >
                  > >> A brahman who has abandoned defilements,
                  > >
                  > > "abandoned defilements" for the more literal "rejected sinful
                  things"?
                  > N: papa: evil, yes, what you say is O.K.

                  About papa as "evil" see the the very interesting article by L.S.
                  Cousins: http://jbe.gold.ac.uk/3/cousins1.html (The part about papa
                  and pu~n~na is a bit further down)

                  Greetings
                  Lars
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