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Re: Ud I.4 7th, 8th and 9th sentences

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  • Derek Cameron <derekacameron@yahoo.com>
    To make it clearer I ll re-post how the translation reads so far. All are invited to make suggestions for improvement: 7th sentence ============ Kittaavataa
    Message 1 of 11 , Mar 2, 2003
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      To make it clearer I'll re-post how the translation reads so far.

      All are invited to make suggestions for improvement:


      7th sentence
      ============

      "Kittaavataa nu kho, bho gotama, braahma.no hoti,
      katame ca pana braahma.na-kara.naa dhammaati?

      "To what extent indeed, revered Gotama, is one a brahman,
      and moreover, which are the things (dhammas) that make one a brahman?

      or

      and moreover, in what way are a brahmin's actions virtuous?


      8th sentence
      ============

      Atha kho bhagavaa, etam attha.m viditvaa,
      taaya.m velaaya.m ima.m udaana.m udaanesi:

      Then the Blessed One who had penetrated the meaning,
      uttered at that time this exclamation of joy:

      or

      uttered at that time this joyous exclamation:


      9th sentence
      ============

      "Yo braahma.no baahita-paapa-dhammo nihu.mhu"nko
      nikkasaavo yatatto
      vedantaguu vuusita-brahma-cariyo
      dhammena so brahmavaada.m vadeyya
      yassussadaa natthi kuhiñci loketi.

      A brahman who has abandoned defilements, who is not a grumbler,
      free from impurity, self-restrained,
      who excels in the vedas and lives the brahman life,
      (or: of highest knowledge, perfected in the holy life)
      He in truth could say that he is a brahman,
      a person who has no excesses anywhere in the world.

      Derek
    • nina van gorkom
      Hi, Derek, op 03-03-2003 00:23 schreef Derek Cameron op ... N: Things is not so good, better: factors. which are the factors..
      Message 2 of 11 , Mar 3, 2003
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        Hi, Derek,
        op 03-03-2003 00:23 schreef Derek Cameron <derekacameron@...> op
        derekacameron@...:
        >
        >>> katame ca pana braahma.na-kara.naa dhammaati?
        >
        >> and moreover, which are the things (dhammas) that make one a
        >> brahman?
        >
        > That's an interesting reading of it -- dhammaa as "things."
        N: Things is not so good, better: factors. which are the factors..
        Woodward: what are the things...
        D: I had read it as "in what way" (katame) are "a brahmin's actions"
        > (braahma.na-kara.naa) "morally good" (dhammaa). So, dhamma in the
        > sense of "in accordance with the good," "morally good," "virtuous."
        dhamma: can be very wide. I did not think of kusala here.
        katama is which.
        >> udaana: exclamation of knowledge and joy (Masefield: euphoria)
        >
        > I hadn't picked up on the idea that "udaana" had a sense of joy about
        > it. Maybe "joyous exclamation"
        N: to me it has something abundant , abundant with enthusiasm.
        >>> "Yo braahma.no baahita-paapa-dhammo nihu.mhu"nko
        >>> nikkasaavo yatatto vedantaguu vuusita-brahma-cariyo
        >
        >> A brahman who has abandoned defilements,
        >
        > "abandoned defilements" for the more literal "rejected sinful things"?
        N: papa: evil, yes, what you say is O.K.
        >> who is not a grumbler,
        >> free from impurity, self-restrained,
        >> who excels in the vedas
        >
        > I had vedantaguu as something liked "of highest wisdom."
        N: This must be the meaning. Speaking to a brahman the vedas are meaningful,
        but now: veda in a higher sense, like Tivedha. The Buddha gave a higher
        sense to certain notions people had, so that they would grasp the deeper
        meaning.
        >> and lives the brahman life,
        >
        > For vuusita-brahma-cariyo I thought maybe "perfected in the holy
        > life" or "perfected in celibacy"
        N: brahmacariya: in a narrower sense: celibacy of recluses, in a wider
        sense: all who develop the eightfold Path. It is often tr. as divine life,
        godly life, holy life. Vuusita: lived.
        As always, there are many points, even in a few lines. Interesting to go
        into it.
        Just now I looked up the Co, tr by Masefield, and again it helps us:
        <brama.nakara.naa: they are making one a brahmin... meaning producing the
        state of a brahmin.>
        ...It is said that he did not teach that brahmin Dhamma because he was
        unreceptive to Dhamma teaching.
        <Whoever be a brahmin (yo braahma.no):whoever, on account of that state in
        which evil has been ousted, be a brahmin...> <being no "Hum hum" type >
        <"Veda- end- gone" on account of the fact of his being gone, by means of the
        Vedas reckoned as the knowledges associated with the four paths, to the end,
        to the culmination, of the formations, to nibbaana, or alternatively to the
        end of the (three) Vedas, being one who has lived the Brahmacariya ...>
        Now, yassussadaa natthi kuhiñci loketi. The last sentence: ussadaa, meaning
        excessive: Co has: preponderance:< he for whom there are no preponderances,
        viz. the preponderance of lust, the preponderance of hatred, ... of
        delusion,... of conceit, and the preponderance or (wrong) view, with
        repespect to anything, even with respect to a single object, amids the
        entire cohabitants of this world, even, meaning (he for whom these
        preponderances) are abandoned without remainder.>
        Nina
      • Derek Cameron <derekacameron@yahoo.com>
        Hi, Nina, ... Yes! I started looking at the commentary as you suggested for a word I was interested in (eka-palla nkena) but that in turn raised more
        Message 3 of 11 , Mar 3, 2003
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          Hi, Nina,

          > As always, there are many points, even in a few lines. Interesting
          > to go into it.

          Yes! I started looking at the commentary as you suggested for a word
          I was interested in (eka-palla"nkena) but that in turn raised more
          questions!

          I've put the translation up as it currently stands in the files
          section at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Pali/files/ud1-04.htm

          In the meantime I'd like to take another look at the final sentence,
          especially the word yassussadaa, as it troubles me a bit.

          > Now, yassussadaa natthi kuhiñci loketi. The last sentence: ussadaa,
          meaning
          > excessive: Co has: preponderance:< he for whom there are no
          preponderances,
          > viz. the preponderance of lust, the preponderance of hatred, ... of
          > delusion,... of conceit, and the preponderance or (wrong) view, with
          > repespect to anything, even with respect to a single object, amids
          the
          > entire cohabitants of this world, even, meaning (he for whom these
          > preponderances) are abandoned without remainder.


          Derek.
        • nina van gorkom
          Dear Derek, op 03-03-2003 22:51 schreef Derek Cameron op ... N: I looked in the Co (Masefield): in a single crosslegged position.
          Message 4 of 11 , Mar 4, 2003
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            Dear Derek,

            op 03-03-2003 22:51 schreef Derek Cameron <derekacameron@...> op
            derekacameron@...:

            > Yes! I started looking at the commentary as you suggested for a word
            > I was interested in (eka-palla"nkena) but that in turn raised more
            > questions!
            N: I looked in the Co (Masefield): in a single crosslegged position.

            > In the meantime I'd like to take another look at the final sentence,
            > especially the word yassussadaa, as it troubles me a bit.
            N: yassa ussadaa: of whom or for whom... ussadaa: as in Co.
          • Derek Cameron <derekacameron@yahoo.com>
            Hi, Nina, ... Thanks for looking that up. I was going to ask you what Peter Masefield had for it, but I didn t want to impose on you! The PED gives palla nka
            Message 5 of 11 , Mar 4, 2003
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              Hi, Nina,

              > N: I looked in the Co (Masefield): in a single crosslegged
              > position.

              Thanks for looking that up. I was going to ask you what Peter
              Masefield had for it, but I didn't want to impose on you!

              The PED gives palla"nka (without the eka- prefix) as cross-legged, so
              eka-palla"nka would seem to mean something different from just
              palla"nka on its own.

              The derivation the PED gives is from pari + a"nka. a"nka means a hook
              or bend. The PED says that the Magadhi form is paliyan"nka (although
              I don't know how they would know the Magadhi form, as opposed to the
              Pali form -- would the word be on the Asokan inscriptions?).

              Anyway eka-palla"nka would be literally something like "one-around-
              hooked" or "one-around-bent."

              To me that suggests a "half-lotus" as opposed to a full-lotus
              position. Perhaps something similar to the way Buddha statues are
              depicted nowadays.

              > N: yassa ussadaa: of whom or for whom... ussadaa: as in Co.

              The PED notes that ussada is a troublesome word. The meanings it
              gives have a sense of "out-sticking" or "out-pouring." So perhaps:

              yassussadaa natthi kuhiñci loketi

              "for whom" (yassa) "there are not" (natthi) "inclinations"
              (ussadaa) "for anything" (kuhiñci) "in the world" (loke).

              Derek.
            • nina van gorkom
              Hi Derek, op 04-03-2003 20:16 schreef Derek Cameron op ... N: You never impose when it concerns texts of the teachings, questions,
              Message 6 of 11 , Mar 6, 2003
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                Hi Derek,
                op 04-03-2003 20:16 schreef Derek Cameron <derekacameron@...> op
                derekacameron@...:

                > Thanks for looking that up. I was going to ask you what Peter
                > Masefield had for it, but I didn't want to impose on you!
                N: You never impose when it concerns texts of the teachings, questions,
                looking things up, I profit from this.
                D: The PED gives palla"nka (without the eka- prefix) as cross-legged, so
                > eka-palla"nka would seem to mean something different from just
                > palla"nka on its own.
                >
                > The derivation the PED gives is from pari + a"nka. a"nka means a hook
                > or bend. The PED says that the Magadhi form is paliyan"nka (although
                > I don't know how they would know the Magadhi form, as opposed to the
                > Pali form -- would the word be on the Asokan inscriptions?).
                > Anyway eka-palla"nka would be literally something like "one-around-
                > hooked" or "one-around-bent."
                N: Interesting this deviation. Now with eka: As I see it, this refers to
                one sitting at a stretch for a long time, namely, after the Buddha's
                enlightenment he was contemplating, sitting in one position.
                This is very interesting, see Vinaya (IV Mahaavagga, tr by Horner. In some
                annotations, it is vol I), she says she followed the Udaana tr. :
                <At one time ... Then the Lord sat cross-legged in one (posture) for seven
                days at the foot of the Tree of Awakening experiencing the bliss of freedom
                (vimuttisukha).>
                Note to one posture: eka-palla"nkena.
                >
                >D: The PED notes that ussada is a troublesome word. The meanings it
                > gives have a sense of "out-sticking" or "out-pouring." So perhaps:
                >
                > yassussadaa natthi kuhiñci loketi
                >
                > "for whom" (yassa) "there are not" (natthi) "inclinations"
                > (ussadaa) "for anything" (kuhiñci) "in the world" (loke).
                N: The Co indicates that these ussadas are all the defilements.
                "preponderants" or excesses. It names the lobha, dosa, di.t.thi, maana, etc.
                kuhi.m is where, not: for anything.
                Nina.
              • Derek Cameron
                Hi, Nina, ... Thank you! I also like to really go into things, when time allows. ... Oh, so that s it. I hadn t thought of that angle at all. Eka- palla nkena
                Message 7 of 11 , Mar 6, 2003
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                  Hi, Nina,

                  > > Thanks for looking that up. I was going to ask you what Peter
                  > > Masefield had for it, but I didn't want to impose on you!

                  > N: You never impose when it concerns texts of the teachings,
                  > questions, looking things up, I profit from this.

                  Thank you! I also like to really go into things, when time allows.

                  > > Anyway eka-palla"nka would be literally something like
                  > > "one-around-hooked" or "one-around-bent."

                  > N: Interesting this deviation. Now with eka: As I see it, this
                  > refers to one sitting at a stretch for a long time, namely, after
                  > the Buddha's enlightenment he was contemplating, sitting in one
                  > position.

                  Oh, so that's it. I hadn't thought of that angle at all. Eka-
                  palla"nkena as sort of "one-sitting," i.e., one session.

                  > N: The Co indicates that these ussadas are all the defilements.
                  > "preponderants" or excesses. It names the lobha, dosa, di.t.thi,
                  > maana, etc.

                  I see what you mean ... something that sticks out, something that is
                  excessive, something done to excess, a preponderant characteristic of
                  the individual ... I can't find a way in English of conveying exactly
                  that all in one word though.

                  Derek.
                • Lars
                  ... things ? ... About papa as evil see the the very interesting article by L.S. Cousins: http://jbe.gold.ac.uk/3/cousins1.html (The part about papa and
                  Message 8 of 11 , Mar 8, 2003
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                    --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom <nilo@e...> wrote:
                    > >
                    > >> A brahman who has abandoned defilements,
                    > >
                    > > "abandoned defilements" for the more literal "rejected sinful
                    things"?
                    > N: papa: evil, yes, what you say is O.K.

                    About papa as "evil" see the the very interesting article by L.S.
                    Cousins: http://jbe.gold.ac.uk/3/cousins1.html (The part about papa
                    and pu~n~na is a bit further down)

                    Greetings
                    Lars
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