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Re: [Pali] Vitakka Santhana Sutta

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  • Piya Tan
    Dear Nina, Thanks for you carefully researched response which I will study carefully. Kobkhun khrab & Sukhi. P. ... From: nina van gorkom
    Message 1 of 7 , Mar 2, 2003
      Dear Nina,

      Thanks for you carefully researched response which I will study carefully.

      Kobkhun khrab & Sukhi.

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "nina van gorkom" <nilo@...>
      To: <Pali@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Sunday, 02 March, 2003 11:29 PM
      Subject: Re: [Pali] Vitakka Santhana Sutta

      > Dear Piya,
      > op 01-03-2003 03:25 schreef Piya Tan op libris@...:
      > >
      > > Has anyone any insight or thought on the best translation of
      > > vitakka,sa.nkhaara,sa.n.thaana in the Vitakka,san.t.haana Sutta here?
      > >
      > > [My provisional translation:]
      > > If, monks, while a monk is not minding and is disregarding those
      > > there still arises in him evil unskillful thoughts connected with
      > > hate and delusion arise in him, then should turn his mind to the
      > > of the thought-formation (vitakka,sa.nkhaara,santhaana) [by examining
      > > causal sequence] of those evil unskillful thoughts. (M 1:120,18-19)
      > Nina: santhaana, also spelled sa.n.thaana: P.E.D.p. 671, this sutta is
      > mentioned:
      > configuration, position, composition, nature, shape, form.
      > Now to the Co (in Thai):
      > <As to the analysis of sa.nkhaara: he should consider his "sa.n.thaana
      > sa"nkhaara", that is, whatever reality (sabhaava, nature) conditions
      > (prungteng: prepare, condition or accumulate) that cause (hetu), that
      > reality is sa"nkhaara.
      > It is explained that this is the condition (paccaya), cause of action,
      > kaarana, root (muula).
      > As to the analysis of sa.n.thaana: where it is well established (thi tang
      > di), where it is located. The sa.n.thaana of vitakka sa"nkhaara is called
      > "vitakka sa.nkhaara sa.n.thaana". The bhikkhu should consider that vitakka
      > sa.nkhaara. The Buddha explained that the bhikkhu should consider what is
      > the cause and what is not the cause of his thoughts: what is the cause,
      > condition of this thought, for which reason does it arise.>
      > Sa.nkhaara has different meanings in different contexts, and here we have
      > think of sa.nkhaarakkhandha, the cetasikas (mental factors) which are
      > called formations, activities etc. They form up conditions, they are
      > accumulated and accumulate. Vitakka is one of them.
      > The translation: P.T.S. has: the monk should attend to the thought
      > and form of those thoughts.
      > The Co explains further on the attitude of the wise (pa.n.dito) as to
      > walking quickly, slowly, etc: when a thought arises, it is compared to
      > walking quickly, when the bhikkhu attends to the "traveling" (thiaw paj)
      > that thought it is like walking slowly. When he has attended to the
      > traveling of that thought he fixes his thought on the meditation subject.
      > When he has developed vipassana and he attains arahatship, this is
      > to the sitting down of a person. The fruition attainment of the bhikkhu,
      > with nibbana as object during a whole day is compared to the person who
      > down.
      > Citta, with vitakka, travels all the time, it frequents different objects
      > through the six doorways.
      > The Commentary begins with adhicitta, explaining this word mentioned in
      > sutta: the citta of the eight attainments (of jhaana), that has as
      > foundation vipassana. Vipassana is implied all along, as in all suttas.
      > monk does not have to reason about it that his traveling thoughts have
      > conditions, he can just realize them there and then as vitakka sa'nkhaara,
      > realities conditioned by former accumulations, non-self. As I see it, even
      > when, as we read further on, he suppresses them with teeth clenched, he
      > realize that this is also conditioned, such are his accumulations,
      > sa.nkhaara.(This is my opinion)
      > The Commentary is long but very impressive, many similes. What is also
      > stressed, the monk should be with his teacher, study the Dhamma, ask
      > questions, listen to Dhamma on due occasions, and analyse which dhamma is
      > .thaana (the right cause) and which dhamma is a.thaana. In this way moha
      > be abandoned, the Commentary states. As I see it, these are the right
      > conditions for vipassana.
      > I cannot advise on the best translations, but I hope the Commentary has
      > helped you somewhat to clarify the meaning of terms,
      > Nina.
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