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Re[2]: [Pali] Divine revelation in Pali Buddhism

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  • Äìèòðèé Èâàõíåíêî (Dimit
    Peter Masefield wrote: PM In the third chapter of my book, I give textual references for five distinct ways in which PM this seems to have taken place:
    Message 1 of 18 , Aug 2, 2001
      Peter Masefield wrote:
      PM> In the third chapter of my book, I give textual references for five distinct ways in which
      PM> this seems to have taken place:

      Currently your valuable book is unavailable for me, however I may
      consider buying it in the future.

      PM> (5) by reviewing Dhamma heard (e.g. M I 501).

      The excerpt from this Magandiya sutta is available at
      http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn75.html

      PM> In addition, I append tables citing occassions upon which various individuals (a) received
      PM> the Dhammacakkhu via an anupubbikathaa; and (b) attained arahantship through a further
      PM> oral tecahing.

      So far I have found ten instances of (b) with oral teaching included
      in the sutta:

      Mahaapu.n.nama MN 3.1.9 (109) III.15 (available at metta.lk)
      Chachakka MN 3.5.6 (148) III.280 (available on the net)
      Ti.msamatta SN 2.4.3 II.187
      Anatta-lakkhana SN 22.59 III.66 (available)
      Khemaka SN 3.1.7 III.126
      Aaditta SN 35.28 IV.19 (available)
      Aggikkhandhopama AN 7.7.8 IV.128
      Dvayatanupassana Snp III.12 139 (available)
      Pañcavaggiyakathaa Vin 1.6 I.7
      Uruvelapaa.tihaariyakathaa Vin 1.12 I.24


      Dimitry Ivakhnenko
    • OlBeggaO@pacbell.net
      I say it ain t right There are two problems connected with translating sammaa as right : The first is that here in the West this word has been taken from its
      Message 2 of 18 , Aug 6, 2001
        I say it ain't right

        There are two problems connected with translating sammaa as "right":

        The first is that here in the West this word has been taken from its
        origins as a carpenters term for an upright or perpendicular angle, a
        right angle, or Upright, and made into a term standing for power and
        authority: "righteous" (or, as "correct" it means "the only correct"
        or as "propper" it means the rest is impropper) and "with the right
        to". The use as Upright is not heard at all, and that would be the
        meaning that was needed, at least for the elements of the Magga,
        although it would be awkward elsewhere. But that is not how, even, I
        see the elements of the Magga, that is to say as being the upright
        ways of things; I see them rather as the ways that work in a system
        designed to accomplish something. This will become apparent if you
        examine the structure of the individual elements. They are not stated
        in terms of static states, they are stated in terms that will be
        interpreted differently by different individuals at different stages
        of progress. So what is needed is not a term that describes an
        absolute.

        So the second is that this is a term that must be used as to describe
        a conditional state of things, not an absolutely correct
        position. "Right" allows only for any other alternative to
        be "wrong", and that is not what is being said in most cases where
        samma is being used, it is simply saying that this is the best for
        those going This Way, second best is not necessarily wrong, and
        certainly not wrong for those who are going that way. Samma ditthi is
        the point of view you adopt in order to overcome views of self and
        existence, once those have been overcome, samma ditthi too must be
        abandoned as just one of the limitless ways of seeing things. (All
        views are to be let go.) Remember the simile of the raft.If right
        were right and wrong were wrong, then right view would be right for
        the Arahant as well as for the student, and that is not the case. It
        needs to be a word that stands for "best under these conditions".

        I think that reliance on the fact that Pali is the root (or close to
        it) of all IndoEuropean languages, as has been said, is a good
        justification for seeking in the etymology of the word for the best
        translation. From summa then, we have (at least) two alternatives:
        the terms "high" (I suppose we could say "top") and "consummate"
        depending on how closely you want to stick to the sound of the root.

        Both these terms allow for understanding the thing it is conditioning
        to be conditionally the best, and yet allow for that which is second
        best to not necessarily be wrong, just not the highest, or the best
        in this case.

        My preference is for High, because that word fits all round, as
        in. . . ahum. . . sammasamadhi = high getting high, or
        sammasambuddhassa=the high #1 wide awakened one.

        As for miccha, it breaks down (me>wee) into "small-stuff"; so you
        could say "low", which is my preference. PED has, as well
        as "wrong", "contrary".

        By the way, a Google search reveals 500 plus references to Buddhology
        and several universities and other institutions that offer degrees in
        the science (many of them in Asia) (I have no idea what it is all
        about). That fellow was a tad on the blunt side, for sure, and did
        not consider his audience, but I believe a close look will reveal
        that it was he that was being attacked and that there was a bit of
        the pack mentality going on here. Not exactly something to be proud
        of.

        obo

        Please understand, I must be off, it is not right that I should
        linger where I have taken a stand against the owner of the list! I do
        it wishing only that you not neglect to wish well even to your
        enemies. This not being you, yourself, who then may they be but
        suchas suchas you?

        best to you all!

        obo
        My next actions will be to resign from the list.
        Bye bye, adios or better yet Ni banna!
      • ypong001@yahoo.com
        Generally, I believe that the word sammaa can be appropriately translated into several English terms. To me, however, it is more important to understand the
        Message 3 of 18 , Aug 7, 2001
          Generally, I believe that the word sammaa can be appropriately
          translated into several English terms. To me, however, it is more
          important to understand the meaning of "right" view than to enter a
          hot debate as to whether "right" is right.

          I have also pointed out in an earlier mail that the context in which
          doctrine fit in is comparatively more important. I did mention that
          "right" does not mean that only what the Buddha taught are "holy" and
          good while the rest are evil and wrong. That's certainly not the
          buddhist approach. The word "right" has to be understood in the
          context of the Middle Path, in its effect of the eradication of
          dukkha.

          At times, the selection of words for English translation can be
          disputable. This list is certainly open for members to post their
          opinions for discussion and consideration, but the tone used has to
          be friendly and non-agressive.

          metta,
          Yong Peng.
          moderator
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