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Re: [Pali] Re: vitakka-sa.nkhaara-santhaana

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  • ������� ���������� ��������� (Dimitry A.
    Hi Derek, ... DCdyc How about thought-construct composition or thought-construct DCdyc formation ? In the process translation I intend to reflect the
    Message 1 of 7 , Mar 1, 2003
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      Hi Derek,

      >> 'sa.nkhaara' is 'a process of construing', and vitakka itself is
      >> 'vacii-sa.khaara' (a process of construing speech).

      >> > (vitakka,sa.nkhaara,santhaana)

      DCdyc> How about "thought-construct composition" or "thought-construct
      DCdyc> formation"?

      In the 'process' translation I intend to reflect the dynamic language
      of Buddhism, which treats the constituents of mind as ongoing
      processes instead of static objects.

      Vitakka doesn't happen all the time, it arises and ceases in the
      dependent co-arising.

      Such interpretation has deep parallels in modern systemic thinking
      (see, for example, books by Fritjof Kapra).

      Dimitry
    • nina van gorkom
      Dear Piya, ... Nina: santhaana, also spelled sa.n.thaana: P.E.D.p. 671, this sutta is mentioned: configuration, position, composition, nature, shape, form. Now
      Message 2 of 7 , Mar 2, 2003
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        Dear Piya,

        op 01-03-2003 03:25 schreef Piya Tan op libris@...:
        >
        > Has anyone any insight or thought on the best translation of
        > vitakka,sa.nkhaara,sa.n.thaana in the Vitakka,san.t.haana Sutta here?
        >
        > [My provisional translation:]
        > If, monks, while a monk is not minding and is disregarding those thoughts,
        > there still arises in him evil unskillful thoughts connected with desire,
        > hate and delusion arise in him, then should turn his mind to the stilling
        > of the thought-formation (vitakka,sa.nkhaara,santhaana) [by examining the
        > causal sequence] of those evil unskillful thoughts. (M 1:120,18-19)

        Nina: santhaana, also spelled sa.n.thaana: P.E.D.p. 671, this sutta is
        mentioned:
        configuration, position, composition, nature, shape, form.
        Now to the Co (in Thai):
        <As to the analysis of sa.nkhaara: he should consider his "sa.n.thaana
        sa"nkhaara", that is, whatever reality (sabhaava, nature) conditions
        (prungteng: prepare, condition or accumulate) that cause (hetu), that
        reality is sa"nkhaara.
        It is explained that this is the condition (paccaya), cause of action,
        kaarana, root (muula).
        As to the analysis of sa.n.thaana: where it is well established (thi tang ju
        di), where it is located. The sa.n.thaana of vitakka sa"nkhaara is called
        "vitakka sa.nkhaara sa.n.thaana". The bhikkhu should consider that vitakka
        sa.nkhaara. The Buddha explained that the bhikkhu should consider what is
        the cause and what is not the cause of his thoughts: what is the cause, the
        condition of this thought, for which reason does it arise.>
        Sa.nkhaara has different meanings in different contexts, and here we have to
        think of sa.nkhaarakkhandha, the cetasikas (mental factors) which are
        called formations, activities etc. They form up conditions, they are
        accumulated and accumulate. Vitakka is one of them.
        The translation: P.T.S. has: the monk should attend to the thought function
        and form of those thoughts.
        The Co explains further on the attitude of the wise (pa.n.dito) as to
        walking quickly, slowly, etc: when a thought arises, it is compared to
        walking quickly, when the bhikkhu attends to the "traveling" (thiaw paj) of
        that thought it is like walking slowly. When he has attended to the
        traveling of that thought he fixes his thought on the meditation subject.
        When he has developed vipassana and he attains arahatship, this is compared
        to the sitting down of a person. The fruition attainment of the bhikkhu,
        with nibbana as object during a whole day is compared to the person who lies
        down.
        Citta, with vitakka, travels all the time, it frequents different objects
        through the six doorways.
        The Commentary begins with adhicitta, explaining this word mentioned in the
        sutta: the citta of the eight attainments (of jhaana), that has as
        foundation vipassana. Vipassana is implied all along, as in all suttas. The
        monk does not have to reason about it that his traveling thoughts have
        conditions, he can just realize them there and then as vitakka sa'nkhaara,
        realities conditioned by former accumulations, non-self. As I see it, even
        when, as we read further on, he suppresses them with teeth clenched, he can
        realize that this is also conditioned, such are his accumulations,
        sa.nkhaara.(This is my opinion)
        The Commentary is long but very impressive, many similes. What is also
        stressed, the monk should be with his teacher, study the Dhamma, ask
        questions, listen to Dhamma on due occasions, and analyse which dhamma is
        .thaana (the right cause) and which dhamma is a.thaana. In this way moha can
        be abandoned, the Commentary states. As I see it, these are the right
        conditions for vipassana.
        I cannot advise on the best translations, but I hope the Commentary has
        helped you somewhat to clarify the meaning of terms,
        Nina.
      • Piya Tan
        Dear Nina, Thanks for you carefully researched response which I will study carefully. Kobkhun khrab & Sukhi. P. ... From: nina van gorkom
        Message 3 of 7 , Mar 2, 2003
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          Dear Nina,

          Thanks for you carefully researched response which I will study carefully.

          Kobkhun khrab & Sukhi.

          P.
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "nina van gorkom" <nilo@...>
          To: <Pali@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Sunday, 02 March, 2003 11:29 PM
          Subject: Re: [Pali] Vitakka Santhana Sutta


          > Dear Piya,
          >
          > op 01-03-2003 03:25 schreef Piya Tan op libris@...:
          > >
          > > Has anyone any insight or thought on the best translation of
          > > vitakka,sa.nkhaara,sa.n.thaana in the Vitakka,san.t.haana Sutta here?
          > >
          > > [My provisional translation:]
          > > If, monks, while a monk is not minding and is disregarding those
          thoughts,
          > > there still arises in him evil unskillful thoughts connected with
          desire,
          > > hate and delusion arise in him, then should turn his mind to the
          stilling
          > > of the thought-formation (vitakka,sa.nkhaara,santhaana) [by examining
          the
          > > causal sequence] of those evil unskillful thoughts. (M 1:120,18-19)
          >
          > Nina: santhaana, also spelled sa.n.thaana: P.E.D.p. 671, this sutta is
          > mentioned:
          > configuration, position, composition, nature, shape, form.
          > Now to the Co (in Thai):
          > <As to the analysis of sa.nkhaara: he should consider his "sa.n.thaana
          > sa"nkhaara", that is, whatever reality (sabhaava, nature) conditions
          > (prungteng: prepare, condition or accumulate) that cause (hetu), that
          > reality is sa"nkhaara.
          > It is explained that this is the condition (paccaya), cause of action,
          > kaarana, root (muula).
          > As to the analysis of sa.n.thaana: where it is well established (thi tang
          ju
          > di), where it is located. The sa.n.thaana of vitakka sa"nkhaara is called
          > "vitakka sa.nkhaara sa.n.thaana". The bhikkhu should consider that vitakka
          > sa.nkhaara. The Buddha explained that the bhikkhu should consider what is
          > the cause and what is not the cause of his thoughts: what is the cause,
          the
          > condition of this thought, for which reason does it arise.>
          > Sa.nkhaara has different meanings in different contexts, and here we have
          to
          > think of sa.nkhaarakkhandha, the cetasikas (mental factors) which are
          > called formations, activities etc. They form up conditions, they are
          > accumulated and accumulate. Vitakka is one of them.
          > The translation: P.T.S. has: the monk should attend to the thought
          function
          > and form of those thoughts.
          > The Co explains further on the attitude of the wise (pa.n.dito) as to
          > walking quickly, slowly, etc: when a thought arises, it is compared to
          > walking quickly, when the bhikkhu attends to the "traveling" (thiaw paj)
          of
          > that thought it is like walking slowly. When he has attended to the
          > traveling of that thought he fixes his thought on the meditation subject.
          > When he has developed vipassana and he attains arahatship, this is
          compared
          > to the sitting down of a person. The fruition attainment of the bhikkhu,
          > with nibbana as object during a whole day is compared to the person who
          lies
          > down.
          > Citta, with vitakka, travels all the time, it frequents different objects
          > through the six doorways.
          > The Commentary begins with adhicitta, explaining this word mentioned in
          the
          > sutta: the citta of the eight attainments (of jhaana), that has as
          > foundation vipassana. Vipassana is implied all along, as in all suttas.
          The
          > monk does not have to reason about it that his traveling thoughts have
          > conditions, he can just realize them there and then as vitakka sa'nkhaara,
          > realities conditioned by former accumulations, non-self. As I see it, even
          > when, as we read further on, he suppresses them with teeth clenched, he
          can
          > realize that this is also conditioned, such are his accumulations,
          > sa.nkhaara.(This is my opinion)
          > The Commentary is long but very impressive, many similes. What is also
          > stressed, the monk should be with his teacher, study the Dhamma, ask
          > questions, listen to Dhamma on due occasions, and analyse which dhamma is
          > .thaana (the right cause) and which dhamma is a.thaana. In this way moha
          can
          > be abandoned, the Commentary states. As I see it, these are the right
          > conditions for vipassana.
          > I cannot advise on the best translations, but I hope the Commentary has
          > helped you somewhat to clarify the meaning of terms,
          > Nina.
          >
          >
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