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Re: [Pali] Re: vitakka-sa.nkhaara-santhaana

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  • Piya Tan
    Hi Derek, Here I think santhaana is usually translated as calming or settling , however I m trying to get a clearer sense of its means in terms of the
    Message 1 of 7 , Mar 1, 2003
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      Hi Derek,

      Here I think "santhaana" is usually translated as "calming" or "settling",
      however I'm trying to get a clearer sense of its means in terms of the
      previous methods of overcoming distracting thoughts.

      Thanks for your suggestion.

      Sukhi.

      P.
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: <derekacameron@...>
      To: <Pali@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Sunday, 02 March, 2003 2:32 AM
      Subject: [Pali] Re: vitakka-sa.nkhaara-santhaana


      > Hi, Piya,
      >
      > > 'sa.nkhaara' is 'a process of construing', and vitakka itself is
      > > 'vacii-sa.khaara' (a process of construing speech).
      >
      > > > (vitakka,sa.nkhaara,santhaana)
      >
      > How about "thought-construct composition" or "thought-construct
      > formation"?
      >
      > Derek.
      >
      >
      >
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    • ������� ���������� ��������� (Dimitry A.
      Hi Derek, ... DCdyc How about thought-construct composition or thought-construct DCdyc formation ? In the process translation I intend to reflect the
      Message 2 of 7 , Mar 1, 2003
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        Hi Derek,

        >> 'sa.nkhaara' is 'a process of construing', and vitakka itself is
        >> 'vacii-sa.khaara' (a process of construing speech).

        >> > (vitakka,sa.nkhaara,santhaana)

        DCdyc> How about "thought-construct composition" or "thought-construct
        DCdyc> formation"?

        In the 'process' translation I intend to reflect the dynamic language
        of Buddhism, which treats the constituents of mind as ongoing
        processes instead of static objects.

        Vitakka doesn't happen all the time, it arises and ceases in the
        dependent co-arising.

        Such interpretation has deep parallels in modern systemic thinking
        (see, for example, books by Fritjof Kapra).

        Dimitry
      • nina van gorkom
        Dear Piya, ... Nina: santhaana, also spelled sa.n.thaana: P.E.D.p. 671, this sutta is mentioned: configuration, position, composition, nature, shape, form. Now
        Message 3 of 7 , Mar 2, 2003
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          Dear Piya,

          op 01-03-2003 03:25 schreef Piya Tan op libris@...:
          >
          > Has anyone any insight or thought on the best translation of
          > vitakka,sa.nkhaara,sa.n.thaana in the Vitakka,san.t.haana Sutta here?
          >
          > [My provisional translation:]
          > If, monks, while a monk is not minding and is disregarding those thoughts,
          > there still arises in him evil unskillful thoughts connected with desire,
          > hate and delusion arise in him, then should turn his mind to the stilling
          > of the thought-formation (vitakka,sa.nkhaara,santhaana) [by examining the
          > causal sequence] of those evil unskillful thoughts. (M 1:120,18-19)

          Nina: santhaana, also spelled sa.n.thaana: P.E.D.p. 671, this sutta is
          mentioned:
          configuration, position, composition, nature, shape, form.
          Now to the Co (in Thai):
          <As to the analysis of sa.nkhaara: he should consider his "sa.n.thaana
          sa"nkhaara", that is, whatever reality (sabhaava, nature) conditions
          (prungteng: prepare, condition or accumulate) that cause (hetu), that
          reality is sa"nkhaara.
          It is explained that this is the condition (paccaya), cause of action,
          kaarana, root (muula).
          As to the analysis of sa.n.thaana: where it is well established (thi tang ju
          di), where it is located. The sa.n.thaana of vitakka sa"nkhaara is called
          "vitakka sa.nkhaara sa.n.thaana". The bhikkhu should consider that vitakka
          sa.nkhaara. The Buddha explained that the bhikkhu should consider what is
          the cause and what is not the cause of his thoughts: what is the cause, the
          condition of this thought, for which reason does it arise.>
          Sa.nkhaara has different meanings in different contexts, and here we have to
          think of sa.nkhaarakkhandha, the cetasikas (mental factors) which are
          called formations, activities etc. They form up conditions, they are
          accumulated and accumulate. Vitakka is one of them.
          The translation: P.T.S. has: the monk should attend to the thought function
          and form of those thoughts.
          The Co explains further on the attitude of the wise (pa.n.dito) as to
          walking quickly, slowly, etc: when a thought arises, it is compared to
          walking quickly, when the bhikkhu attends to the "traveling" (thiaw paj) of
          that thought it is like walking slowly. When he has attended to the
          traveling of that thought he fixes his thought on the meditation subject.
          When he has developed vipassana and he attains arahatship, this is compared
          to the sitting down of a person. The fruition attainment of the bhikkhu,
          with nibbana as object during a whole day is compared to the person who lies
          down.
          Citta, with vitakka, travels all the time, it frequents different objects
          through the six doorways.
          The Commentary begins with adhicitta, explaining this word mentioned in the
          sutta: the citta of the eight attainments (of jhaana), that has as
          foundation vipassana. Vipassana is implied all along, as in all suttas. The
          monk does not have to reason about it that his traveling thoughts have
          conditions, he can just realize them there and then as vitakka sa'nkhaara,
          realities conditioned by former accumulations, non-self. As I see it, even
          when, as we read further on, he suppresses them with teeth clenched, he can
          realize that this is also conditioned, such are his accumulations,
          sa.nkhaara.(This is my opinion)
          The Commentary is long but very impressive, many similes. What is also
          stressed, the monk should be with his teacher, study the Dhamma, ask
          questions, listen to Dhamma on due occasions, and analyse which dhamma is
          .thaana (the right cause) and which dhamma is a.thaana. In this way moha can
          be abandoned, the Commentary states. As I see it, these are the right
          conditions for vipassana.
          I cannot advise on the best translations, but I hope the Commentary has
          helped you somewhat to clarify the meaning of terms,
          Nina.
        • Piya Tan
          Dear Nina, Thanks for you carefully researched response which I will study carefully. Kobkhun khrab & Sukhi. P. ... From: nina van gorkom
          Message 4 of 7 , Mar 2, 2003
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            Dear Nina,

            Thanks for you carefully researched response which I will study carefully.

            Kobkhun khrab & Sukhi.

            P.
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "nina van gorkom" <nilo@...>
            To: <Pali@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Sunday, 02 March, 2003 11:29 PM
            Subject: Re: [Pali] Vitakka Santhana Sutta


            > Dear Piya,
            >
            > op 01-03-2003 03:25 schreef Piya Tan op libris@...:
            > >
            > > Has anyone any insight or thought on the best translation of
            > > vitakka,sa.nkhaara,sa.n.thaana in the Vitakka,san.t.haana Sutta here?
            > >
            > > [My provisional translation:]
            > > If, monks, while a monk is not minding and is disregarding those
            thoughts,
            > > there still arises in him evil unskillful thoughts connected with
            desire,
            > > hate and delusion arise in him, then should turn his mind to the
            stilling
            > > of the thought-formation (vitakka,sa.nkhaara,santhaana) [by examining
            the
            > > causal sequence] of those evil unskillful thoughts. (M 1:120,18-19)
            >
            > Nina: santhaana, also spelled sa.n.thaana: P.E.D.p. 671, this sutta is
            > mentioned:
            > configuration, position, composition, nature, shape, form.
            > Now to the Co (in Thai):
            > <As to the analysis of sa.nkhaara: he should consider his "sa.n.thaana
            > sa"nkhaara", that is, whatever reality (sabhaava, nature) conditions
            > (prungteng: prepare, condition or accumulate) that cause (hetu), that
            > reality is sa"nkhaara.
            > It is explained that this is the condition (paccaya), cause of action,
            > kaarana, root (muula).
            > As to the analysis of sa.n.thaana: where it is well established (thi tang
            ju
            > di), where it is located. The sa.n.thaana of vitakka sa"nkhaara is called
            > "vitakka sa.nkhaara sa.n.thaana". The bhikkhu should consider that vitakka
            > sa.nkhaara. The Buddha explained that the bhikkhu should consider what is
            > the cause and what is not the cause of his thoughts: what is the cause,
            the
            > condition of this thought, for which reason does it arise.>
            > Sa.nkhaara has different meanings in different contexts, and here we have
            to
            > think of sa.nkhaarakkhandha, the cetasikas (mental factors) which are
            > called formations, activities etc. They form up conditions, they are
            > accumulated and accumulate. Vitakka is one of them.
            > The translation: P.T.S. has: the monk should attend to the thought
            function
            > and form of those thoughts.
            > The Co explains further on the attitude of the wise (pa.n.dito) as to
            > walking quickly, slowly, etc: when a thought arises, it is compared to
            > walking quickly, when the bhikkhu attends to the "traveling" (thiaw paj)
            of
            > that thought it is like walking slowly. When he has attended to the
            > traveling of that thought he fixes his thought on the meditation subject.
            > When he has developed vipassana and he attains arahatship, this is
            compared
            > to the sitting down of a person. The fruition attainment of the bhikkhu,
            > with nibbana as object during a whole day is compared to the person who
            lies
            > down.
            > Citta, with vitakka, travels all the time, it frequents different objects
            > through the six doorways.
            > The Commentary begins with adhicitta, explaining this word mentioned in
            the
            > sutta: the citta of the eight attainments (of jhaana), that has as
            > foundation vipassana. Vipassana is implied all along, as in all suttas.
            The
            > monk does not have to reason about it that his traveling thoughts have
            > conditions, he can just realize them there and then as vitakka sa'nkhaara,
            > realities conditioned by former accumulations, non-self. As I see it, even
            > when, as we read further on, he suppresses them with teeth clenched, he
            can
            > realize that this is also conditioned, such are his accumulations,
            > sa.nkhaara.(This is my opinion)
            > The Commentary is long but very impressive, many similes. What is also
            > stressed, the monk should be with his teacher, study the Dhamma, ask
            > questions, listen to Dhamma on due occasions, and analyse which dhamma is
            > .thaana (the right cause) and which dhamma is a.thaana. In this way moha
            can
            > be abandoned, the Commentary states. As I see it, these are the right
            > conditions for vipassana.
            > I cannot advise on the best translations, but I hope the Commentary has
            > helped you somewhat to clarify the meaning of terms,
            > Nina.
            >
            >
            > Paaliga.na - a community for Pali students
            > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
            > Yahoo! Groups members can set their delivery options to daily digest or
            web only.
            > [Homepage] http://www.tipitaka.net
            > [Send Message] pali@yahoogroups.com
            > [Mailing List] http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pali
            > [Discussion] http://tipitaka.suddenlaunch.com
            >
            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
            >
            >
            >
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