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Re: [Pali] Vitakka Santhana Sutta

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  • ������� ���������� ��������� (Dimitry A.
    Dear Piya, PT Has anyone any insight or thought on the best translation of PT vitakka,sa.nkhaara,sa.n.thaana in the Vitakka,san.t.haana Sutta here? I would
    Message 1 of 7 , Mar 1, 2003
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      Dear Piya,

      PT> Has anyone any insight or thought on the best translation of
      PT> vitakka,sa.nkhaara,sa.n.thaana in the Vitakka,san.t.haana Sutta here?

      I would interpret it here as 'santhaana' - 'appeasing'.
      'sa.nkhaara' is 'a process of construing', and vitakka itself is
      'vacii-sa.khaara' (a process of construing speech).

      Hence 'vitakka-sa.nkhaara' is 'a process of construing thinking'.

      The whole compound is then "appeasing of
      thought-construing process".

      PT> [My provisional translation:]
      PT> If, monks, while a monk is not minding and is disregarding those thoughts,
      PT> there still arises in him evil unskillful thoughts connected with desire,
      PT> hate and delusion arise in him, then should turn his mind to the stilling
      PT> of the thought-formation (vitakka,sa.nkhaara,santhaana) [by examining the
      PT> causal sequence] of those evil unskillful thoughts. (M 1:120,18-19)

      Causal sequence is examined earlier, in 'drawbacks'.

      Metta, Dimitry
    • Derek Cameron <derekacameron@yahoo.com>
      Hi, Piya, ... How about thought-construct composition or thought-construct formation ? Derek.
      Message 2 of 7 , Mar 1, 2003
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        Hi, Piya,

        > 'sa.nkhaara' is 'a process of construing', and vitakka itself is
        > 'vacii-sa.khaara' (a process of construing speech).

        > > (vitakka,sa.nkhaara,santhaana)

        How about "thought-construct composition" or "thought-construct
        formation"?

        Derek.
      • Piya Tan
        Hi Derek, Here I think santhaana is usually translated as calming or settling , however I m trying to get a clearer sense of its means in terms of the
        Message 3 of 7 , Mar 1, 2003
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          Hi Derek,

          Here I think "santhaana" is usually translated as "calming" or "settling",
          however I'm trying to get a clearer sense of its means in terms of the
          previous methods of overcoming distracting thoughts.

          Thanks for your suggestion.

          Sukhi.

          P.
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: <derekacameron@...>
          To: <Pali@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Sunday, 02 March, 2003 2:32 AM
          Subject: [Pali] Re: vitakka-sa.nkhaara-santhaana


          > Hi, Piya,
          >
          > > 'sa.nkhaara' is 'a process of construing', and vitakka itself is
          > > 'vacii-sa.khaara' (a process of construing speech).
          >
          > > > (vitakka,sa.nkhaara,santhaana)
          >
          > How about "thought-construct composition" or "thought-construct
          > formation"?
          >
          > Derek.
          >
          >
          >
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        • ������� ���������� ��������� (Dimitry A.
          Hi Derek, ... DCdyc How about thought-construct composition or thought-construct DCdyc formation ? In the process translation I intend to reflect the
          Message 4 of 7 , Mar 1, 2003
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            Hi Derek,

            >> 'sa.nkhaara' is 'a process of construing', and vitakka itself is
            >> 'vacii-sa.khaara' (a process of construing speech).

            >> > (vitakka,sa.nkhaara,santhaana)

            DCdyc> How about "thought-construct composition" or "thought-construct
            DCdyc> formation"?

            In the 'process' translation I intend to reflect the dynamic language
            of Buddhism, which treats the constituents of mind as ongoing
            processes instead of static objects.

            Vitakka doesn't happen all the time, it arises and ceases in the
            dependent co-arising.

            Such interpretation has deep parallels in modern systemic thinking
            (see, for example, books by Fritjof Kapra).

            Dimitry
          • nina van gorkom
            Dear Piya, ... Nina: santhaana, also spelled sa.n.thaana: P.E.D.p. 671, this sutta is mentioned: configuration, position, composition, nature, shape, form. Now
            Message 5 of 7 , Mar 2, 2003
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              Dear Piya,

              op 01-03-2003 03:25 schreef Piya Tan op libris@...:
              >
              > Has anyone any insight or thought on the best translation of
              > vitakka,sa.nkhaara,sa.n.thaana in the Vitakka,san.t.haana Sutta here?
              >
              > [My provisional translation:]
              > If, monks, while a monk is not minding and is disregarding those thoughts,
              > there still arises in him evil unskillful thoughts connected with desire,
              > hate and delusion arise in him, then should turn his mind to the stilling
              > of the thought-formation (vitakka,sa.nkhaara,santhaana) [by examining the
              > causal sequence] of those evil unskillful thoughts. (M 1:120,18-19)

              Nina: santhaana, also spelled sa.n.thaana: P.E.D.p. 671, this sutta is
              mentioned:
              configuration, position, composition, nature, shape, form.
              Now to the Co (in Thai):
              <As to the analysis of sa.nkhaara: he should consider his "sa.n.thaana
              sa"nkhaara", that is, whatever reality (sabhaava, nature) conditions
              (prungteng: prepare, condition or accumulate) that cause (hetu), that
              reality is sa"nkhaara.
              It is explained that this is the condition (paccaya), cause of action,
              kaarana, root (muula).
              As to the analysis of sa.n.thaana: where it is well established (thi tang ju
              di), where it is located. The sa.n.thaana of vitakka sa"nkhaara is called
              "vitakka sa.nkhaara sa.n.thaana". The bhikkhu should consider that vitakka
              sa.nkhaara. The Buddha explained that the bhikkhu should consider what is
              the cause and what is not the cause of his thoughts: what is the cause, the
              condition of this thought, for which reason does it arise.>
              Sa.nkhaara has different meanings in different contexts, and here we have to
              think of sa.nkhaarakkhandha, the cetasikas (mental factors) which are
              called formations, activities etc. They form up conditions, they are
              accumulated and accumulate. Vitakka is one of them.
              The translation: P.T.S. has: the monk should attend to the thought function
              and form of those thoughts.
              The Co explains further on the attitude of the wise (pa.n.dito) as to
              walking quickly, slowly, etc: when a thought arises, it is compared to
              walking quickly, when the bhikkhu attends to the "traveling" (thiaw paj) of
              that thought it is like walking slowly. When he has attended to the
              traveling of that thought he fixes his thought on the meditation subject.
              When he has developed vipassana and he attains arahatship, this is compared
              to the sitting down of a person. The fruition attainment of the bhikkhu,
              with nibbana as object during a whole day is compared to the person who lies
              down.
              Citta, with vitakka, travels all the time, it frequents different objects
              through the six doorways.
              The Commentary begins with adhicitta, explaining this word mentioned in the
              sutta: the citta of the eight attainments (of jhaana), that has as
              foundation vipassana. Vipassana is implied all along, as in all suttas. The
              monk does not have to reason about it that his traveling thoughts have
              conditions, he can just realize them there and then as vitakka sa'nkhaara,
              realities conditioned by former accumulations, non-self. As I see it, even
              when, as we read further on, he suppresses them with teeth clenched, he can
              realize that this is also conditioned, such are his accumulations,
              sa.nkhaara.(This is my opinion)
              The Commentary is long but very impressive, many similes. What is also
              stressed, the monk should be with his teacher, study the Dhamma, ask
              questions, listen to Dhamma on due occasions, and analyse which dhamma is
              .thaana (the right cause) and which dhamma is a.thaana. In this way moha can
              be abandoned, the Commentary states. As I see it, these are the right
              conditions for vipassana.
              I cannot advise on the best translations, but I hope the Commentary has
              helped you somewhat to clarify the meaning of terms,
              Nina.
            • Piya Tan
              Dear Nina, Thanks for you carefully researched response which I will study carefully. Kobkhun khrab & Sukhi. P. ... From: nina van gorkom
              Message 6 of 7 , Mar 2, 2003
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                Dear Nina,

                Thanks for you carefully researched response which I will study carefully.

                Kobkhun khrab & Sukhi.

                P.
                ----- Original Message -----
                From: "nina van gorkom" <nilo@...>
                To: <Pali@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Sunday, 02 March, 2003 11:29 PM
                Subject: Re: [Pali] Vitakka Santhana Sutta


                > Dear Piya,
                >
                > op 01-03-2003 03:25 schreef Piya Tan op libris@...:
                > >
                > > Has anyone any insight or thought on the best translation of
                > > vitakka,sa.nkhaara,sa.n.thaana in the Vitakka,san.t.haana Sutta here?
                > >
                > > [My provisional translation:]
                > > If, monks, while a monk is not minding and is disregarding those
                thoughts,
                > > there still arises in him evil unskillful thoughts connected with
                desire,
                > > hate and delusion arise in him, then should turn his mind to the
                stilling
                > > of the thought-formation (vitakka,sa.nkhaara,santhaana) [by examining
                the
                > > causal sequence] of those evil unskillful thoughts. (M 1:120,18-19)
                >
                > Nina: santhaana, also spelled sa.n.thaana: P.E.D.p. 671, this sutta is
                > mentioned:
                > configuration, position, composition, nature, shape, form.
                > Now to the Co (in Thai):
                > <As to the analysis of sa.nkhaara: he should consider his "sa.n.thaana
                > sa"nkhaara", that is, whatever reality (sabhaava, nature) conditions
                > (prungteng: prepare, condition or accumulate) that cause (hetu), that
                > reality is sa"nkhaara.
                > It is explained that this is the condition (paccaya), cause of action,
                > kaarana, root (muula).
                > As to the analysis of sa.n.thaana: where it is well established (thi tang
                ju
                > di), where it is located. The sa.n.thaana of vitakka sa"nkhaara is called
                > "vitakka sa.nkhaara sa.n.thaana". The bhikkhu should consider that vitakka
                > sa.nkhaara. The Buddha explained that the bhikkhu should consider what is
                > the cause and what is not the cause of his thoughts: what is the cause,
                the
                > condition of this thought, for which reason does it arise.>
                > Sa.nkhaara has different meanings in different contexts, and here we have
                to
                > think of sa.nkhaarakkhandha, the cetasikas (mental factors) which are
                > called formations, activities etc. They form up conditions, they are
                > accumulated and accumulate. Vitakka is one of them.
                > The translation: P.T.S. has: the monk should attend to the thought
                function
                > and form of those thoughts.
                > The Co explains further on the attitude of the wise (pa.n.dito) as to
                > walking quickly, slowly, etc: when a thought arises, it is compared to
                > walking quickly, when the bhikkhu attends to the "traveling" (thiaw paj)
                of
                > that thought it is like walking slowly. When he has attended to the
                > traveling of that thought he fixes his thought on the meditation subject.
                > When he has developed vipassana and he attains arahatship, this is
                compared
                > to the sitting down of a person. The fruition attainment of the bhikkhu,
                > with nibbana as object during a whole day is compared to the person who
                lies
                > down.
                > Citta, with vitakka, travels all the time, it frequents different objects
                > through the six doorways.
                > The Commentary begins with adhicitta, explaining this word mentioned in
                the
                > sutta: the citta of the eight attainments (of jhaana), that has as
                > foundation vipassana. Vipassana is implied all along, as in all suttas.
                The
                > monk does not have to reason about it that his traveling thoughts have
                > conditions, he can just realize them there and then as vitakka sa'nkhaara,
                > realities conditioned by former accumulations, non-self. As I see it, even
                > when, as we read further on, he suppresses them with teeth clenched, he
                can
                > realize that this is also conditioned, such are his accumulations,
                > sa.nkhaara.(This is my opinion)
                > The Commentary is long but very impressive, many similes. What is also
                > stressed, the monk should be with his teacher, study the Dhamma, ask
                > questions, listen to Dhamma on due occasions, and analyse which dhamma is
                > .thaana (the right cause) and which dhamma is a.thaana. In this way moha
                can
                > be abandoned, the Commentary states. As I see it, these are the right
                > conditions for vipassana.
                > I cannot advise on the best translations, but I hope the Commentary has
                > helped you somewhat to clarify the meaning of terms,
                > Nina.
                >
                >
                > Paaliga.na - a community for Pali students
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                > Yahoo! Groups members can set their delivery options to daily digest or
                web only.
                > [Homepage] http://www.tipitaka.net
                > [Send Message] pali@yahoogroups.com
                > [Mailing List] http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pali
                > [Discussion] http://tipitaka.suddenlaunch.com
                >
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                >
                >
                >
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