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Vitakka Santhana Sutta

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  • Piya Tan
    Dear Pali friends, Has anyone any insight or thought on the best translation of vitakka,sa.nkhaara,sa.n.thaana in the Vitakka,san.t.haana Sutta here? [My
    Message 1 of 7 , Feb 28, 2003
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      Dear Pali friends,

      Has anyone any insight or thought on the best translation of
      vitakka,sa.nkhaara,sa.n.thaana in the Vitakka,san.t.haana Sutta here?

      [My provisional translation:]
      If, monks, while a monk is not minding and is disregarding those thoughts,
      there still arises in him evil unskillful thoughts connected with desire,
      hate and delusion arise in him, then should turn his mind to the stilling
      of the thought-formation (vitakka,sa.nkhaara,santhaana) [by examining the
      causal sequence] of those evil unskillful thoughts. (M 1:120,18-19)

      Sukhi.

      P.
    • ������� ���������� ��������� (Dimitry A.
      Dear Piya, PT Has anyone any insight or thought on the best translation of PT vitakka,sa.nkhaara,sa.n.thaana in the Vitakka,san.t.haana Sutta here? I would
      Message 2 of 7 , Mar 1, 2003
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        Dear Piya,

        PT> Has anyone any insight or thought on the best translation of
        PT> vitakka,sa.nkhaara,sa.n.thaana in the Vitakka,san.t.haana Sutta here?

        I would interpret it here as 'santhaana' - 'appeasing'.
        'sa.nkhaara' is 'a process of construing', and vitakka itself is
        'vacii-sa.khaara' (a process of construing speech).

        Hence 'vitakka-sa.nkhaara' is 'a process of construing thinking'.

        The whole compound is then "appeasing of
        thought-construing process".

        PT> [My provisional translation:]
        PT> If, monks, while a monk is not minding and is disregarding those thoughts,
        PT> there still arises in him evil unskillful thoughts connected with desire,
        PT> hate and delusion arise in him, then should turn his mind to the stilling
        PT> of the thought-formation (vitakka,sa.nkhaara,santhaana) [by examining the
        PT> causal sequence] of those evil unskillful thoughts. (M 1:120,18-19)

        Causal sequence is examined earlier, in 'drawbacks'.

        Metta, Dimitry
      • Derek Cameron <derekacameron@yahoo.com>
        Hi, Piya, ... How about thought-construct composition or thought-construct formation ? Derek.
        Message 3 of 7 , Mar 1, 2003
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          Hi, Piya,

          > 'sa.nkhaara' is 'a process of construing', and vitakka itself is
          > 'vacii-sa.khaara' (a process of construing speech).

          > > (vitakka,sa.nkhaara,santhaana)

          How about "thought-construct composition" or "thought-construct
          formation"?

          Derek.
        • Piya Tan
          Hi Derek, Here I think santhaana is usually translated as calming or settling , however I m trying to get a clearer sense of its means in terms of the
          Message 4 of 7 , Mar 1, 2003
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            Hi Derek,

            Here I think "santhaana" is usually translated as "calming" or "settling",
            however I'm trying to get a clearer sense of its means in terms of the
            previous methods of overcoming distracting thoughts.

            Thanks for your suggestion.

            Sukhi.

            P.
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: <derekacameron@...>
            To: <Pali@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Sunday, 02 March, 2003 2:32 AM
            Subject: [Pali] Re: vitakka-sa.nkhaara-santhaana


            > Hi, Piya,
            >
            > > 'sa.nkhaara' is 'a process of construing', and vitakka itself is
            > > 'vacii-sa.khaara' (a process of construing speech).
            >
            > > > (vitakka,sa.nkhaara,santhaana)
            >
            > How about "thought-construct composition" or "thought-construct
            > formation"?
            >
            > Derek.
            >
            >
            >
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          • ������� ���������� ��������� (Dimitry A.
            Hi Derek, ... DCdyc How about thought-construct composition or thought-construct DCdyc formation ? In the process translation I intend to reflect the
            Message 5 of 7 , Mar 1, 2003
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              Hi Derek,

              >> 'sa.nkhaara' is 'a process of construing', and vitakka itself is
              >> 'vacii-sa.khaara' (a process of construing speech).

              >> > (vitakka,sa.nkhaara,santhaana)

              DCdyc> How about "thought-construct composition" or "thought-construct
              DCdyc> formation"?

              In the 'process' translation I intend to reflect the dynamic language
              of Buddhism, which treats the constituents of mind as ongoing
              processes instead of static objects.

              Vitakka doesn't happen all the time, it arises and ceases in the
              dependent co-arising.

              Such interpretation has deep parallels in modern systemic thinking
              (see, for example, books by Fritjof Kapra).

              Dimitry
            • nina van gorkom
              Dear Piya, ... Nina: santhaana, also spelled sa.n.thaana: P.E.D.p. 671, this sutta is mentioned: configuration, position, composition, nature, shape, form. Now
              Message 6 of 7 , Mar 2, 2003
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                Dear Piya,

                op 01-03-2003 03:25 schreef Piya Tan op libris@...:
                >
                > Has anyone any insight or thought on the best translation of
                > vitakka,sa.nkhaara,sa.n.thaana in the Vitakka,san.t.haana Sutta here?
                >
                > [My provisional translation:]
                > If, monks, while a monk is not minding and is disregarding those thoughts,
                > there still arises in him evil unskillful thoughts connected with desire,
                > hate and delusion arise in him, then should turn his mind to the stilling
                > of the thought-formation (vitakka,sa.nkhaara,santhaana) [by examining the
                > causal sequence] of those evil unskillful thoughts. (M 1:120,18-19)

                Nina: santhaana, also spelled sa.n.thaana: P.E.D.p. 671, this sutta is
                mentioned:
                configuration, position, composition, nature, shape, form.
                Now to the Co (in Thai):
                <As to the analysis of sa.nkhaara: he should consider his "sa.n.thaana
                sa"nkhaara", that is, whatever reality (sabhaava, nature) conditions
                (prungteng: prepare, condition or accumulate) that cause (hetu), that
                reality is sa"nkhaara.
                It is explained that this is the condition (paccaya), cause of action,
                kaarana, root (muula).
                As to the analysis of sa.n.thaana: where it is well established (thi tang ju
                di), where it is located. The sa.n.thaana of vitakka sa"nkhaara is called
                "vitakka sa.nkhaara sa.n.thaana". The bhikkhu should consider that vitakka
                sa.nkhaara. The Buddha explained that the bhikkhu should consider what is
                the cause and what is not the cause of his thoughts: what is the cause, the
                condition of this thought, for which reason does it arise.>
                Sa.nkhaara has different meanings in different contexts, and here we have to
                think of sa.nkhaarakkhandha, the cetasikas (mental factors) which are
                called formations, activities etc. They form up conditions, they are
                accumulated and accumulate. Vitakka is one of them.
                The translation: P.T.S. has: the monk should attend to the thought function
                and form of those thoughts.
                The Co explains further on the attitude of the wise (pa.n.dito) as to
                walking quickly, slowly, etc: when a thought arises, it is compared to
                walking quickly, when the bhikkhu attends to the "traveling" (thiaw paj) of
                that thought it is like walking slowly. When he has attended to the
                traveling of that thought he fixes his thought on the meditation subject.
                When he has developed vipassana and he attains arahatship, this is compared
                to the sitting down of a person. The fruition attainment of the bhikkhu,
                with nibbana as object during a whole day is compared to the person who lies
                down.
                Citta, with vitakka, travels all the time, it frequents different objects
                through the six doorways.
                The Commentary begins with adhicitta, explaining this word mentioned in the
                sutta: the citta of the eight attainments (of jhaana), that has as
                foundation vipassana. Vipassana is implied all along, as in all suttas. The
                monk does not have to reason about it that his traveling thoughts have
                conditions, he can just realize them there and then as vitakka sa'nkhaara,
                realities conditioned by former accumulations, non-self. As I see it, even
                when, as we read further on, he suppresses them with teeth clenched, he can
                realize that this is also conditioned, such are his accumulations,
                sa.nkhaara.(This is my opinion)
                The Commentary is long but very impressive, many similes. What is also
                stressed, the monk should be with his teacher, study the Dhamma, ask
                questions, listen to Dhamma on due occasions, and analyse which dhamma is
                .thaana (the right cause) and which dhamma is a.thaana. In this way moha can
                be abandoned, the Commentary states. As I see it, these are the right
                conditions for vipassana.
                I cannot advise on the best translations, but I hope the Commentary has
                helped you somewhat to clarify the meaning of terms,
                Nina.
              • Piya Tan
                Dear Nina, Thanks for you carefully researched response which I will study carefully. Kobkhun khrab & Sukhi. P. ... From: nina van gorkom
                Message 7 of 7 , Mar 2, 2003
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                  Dear Nina,

                  Thanks for you carefully researched response which I will study carefully.

                  Kobkhun khrab & Sukhi.

                  P.
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: "nina van gorkom" <nilo@...>
                  To: <Pali@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Sunday, 02 March, 2003 11:29 PM
                  Subject: Re: [Pali] Vitakka Santhana Sutta


                  > Dear Piya,
                  >
                  > op 01-03-2003 03:25 schreef Piya Tan op libris@...:
                  > >
                  > > Has anyone any insight or thought on the best translation of
                  > > vitakka,sa.nkhaara,sa.n.thaana in the Vitakka,san.t.haana Sutta here?
                  > >
                  > > [My provisional translation:]
                  > > If, monks, while a monk is not minding and is disregarding those
                  thoughts,
                  > > there still arises in him evil unskillful thoughts connected with
                  desire,
                  > > hate and delusion arise in him, then should turn his mind to the
                  stilling
                  > > of the thought-formation (vitakka,sa.nkhaara,santhaana) [by examining
                  the
                  > > causal sequence] of those evil unskillful thoughts. (M 1:120,18-19)
                  >
                  > Nina: santhaana, also spelled sa.n.thaana: P.E.D.p. 671, this sutta is
                  > mentioned:
                  > configuration, position, composition, nature, shape, form.
                  > Now to the Co (in Thai):
                  > <As to the analysis of sa.nkhaara: he should consider his "sa.n.thaana
                  > sa"nkhaara", that is, whatever reality (sabhaava, nature) conditions
                  > (prungteng: prepare, condition or accumulate) that cause (hetu), that
                  > reality is sa"nkhaara.
                  > It is explained that this is the condition (paccaya), cause of action,
                  > kaarana, root (muula).
                  > As to the analysis of sa.n.thaana: where it is well established (thi tang
                  ju
                  > di), where it is located. The sa.n.thaana of vitakka sa"nkhaara is called
                  > "vitakka sa.nkhaara sa.n.thaana". The bhikkhu should consider that vitakka
                  > sa.nkhaara. The Buddha explained that the bhikkhu should consider what is
                  > the cause and what is not the cause of his thoughts: what is the cause,
                  the
                  > condition of this thought, for which reason does it arise.>
                  > Sa.nkhaara has different meanings in different contexts, and here we have
                  to
                  > think of sa.nkhaarakkhandha, the cetasikas (mental factors) which are
                  > called formations, activities etc. They form up conditions, they are
                  > accumulated and accumulate. Vitakka is one of them.
                  > The translation: P.T.S. has: the monk should attend to the thought
                  function
                  > and form of those thoughts.
                  > The Co explains further on the attitude of the wise (pa.n.dito) as to
                  > walking quickly, slowly, etc: when a thought arises, it is compared to
                  > walking quickly, when the bhikkhu attends to the "traveling" (thiaw paj)
                  of
                  > that thought it is like walking slowly. When he has attended to the
                  > traveling of that thought he fixes his thought on the meditation subject.
                  > When he has developed vipassana and he attains arahatship, this is
                  compared
                  > to the sitting down of a person. The fruition attainment of the bhikkhu,
                  > with nibbana as object during a whole day is compared to the person who
                  lies
                  > down.
                  > Citta, with vitakka, travels all the time, it frequents different objects
                  > through the six doorways.
                  > The Commentary begins with adhicitta, explaining this word mentioned in
                  the
                  > sutta: the citta of the eight attainments (of jhaana), that has as
                  > foundation vipassana. Vipassana is implied all along, as in all suttas.
                  The
                  > monk does not have to reason about it that his traveling thoughts have
                  > conditions, he can just realize them there and then as vitakka sa'nkhaara,
                  > realities conditioned by former accumulations, non-self. As I see it, even
                  > when, as we read further on, he suppresses them with teeth clenched, he
                  can
                  > realize that this is also conditioned, such are his accumulations,
                  > sa.nkhaara.(This is my opinion)
                  > The Commentary is long but very impressive, many similes. What is also
                  > stressed, the monk should be with his teacher, study the Dhamma, ask
                  > questions, listen to Dhamma on due occasions, and analyse which dhamma is
                  > .thaana (the right cause) and which dhamma is a.thaana. In this way moha
                  can
                  > be abandoned, the Commentary states. As I see it, these are the right
                  > conditions for vipassana.
                  > I cannot advise on the best translations, but I hope the Commentary has
                  > helped you somewhat to clarify the meaning of terms,
                  > Nina.
                  >
                  >
                  > Paaliga.na - a community for Pali students
                  > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
                  > Yahoo! Groups members can set their delivery options to daily digest or
                  web only.
                  > [Homepage] http://www.tipitaka.net
                  > [Send Message] pali@yahoogroups.com
                  > [Mailing List] http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pali
                  > [Discussion] http://tipitaka.suddenlaunch.com
                  >
                  > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                  >
                  >
                  >
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