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Ud I.4 7th, 8th and 9th sentences

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  • Derek Cameron
    And I ll leave the final three sentences (!) for anyone else who d like to try their hand: “Kittaavataa nu kho, bho gotama, braahma.no hoti, katame ca pana
    Message 1 of 11 , Feb 27 3:02 PM
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      And I'll leave the final three sentences (!) for
      anyone else who'd like to try their hand:


      �Kittaavataa nu kho, bho gotama, braahma.no hoti,
      katame ca pana braahma.na-kara.naa dhammaa�ti?


      Atha kho bhagavaa, etam attha.m viditvaa, taaya.m
      velaaya.m ima.m udaana.m udaanesi �


      �Yo braahma.no baahita-paapa-dhammo nihu.mhu"nko
      nikkasaavo yatatto vedantaguu vuusita-brahma-cariyo
      dhammena so brahmavaada.m vadeyya yassussadaa natthi
      kuhi�ci loke�ti.


      Derek.
    • nina van gorkom
      Dear Derek, I have a try, partly with help of Woodward, but for the verses we should listen to Rob Edison. ... N:kittaavataa: to what extent kho: indeed,
      Message 2 of 11 , Mar 2, 2003
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        Dear Derek,
        I have a try, partly with help of Woodward,
        but for the verses we should listen to Rob Edison.
        op 28-02-2003 00:02 schreef Derek Cameron op derekacameron@...:

        > And I'll leave the final three sentences (!) for
        > anyone else who'd like to try their hand:
        >
        >
        > “Kittaavataa nu kho, bho gotama, braahma.no hoti,
        > katame ca pana braahma.na-kara.naa dhammaati?
        N:kittaavataa: to what extent
        kho: indeed, really
        katama: which
        kara.na.m: that what makes
        ca pana: and moreover
        To what extent indeed , revered Gotama, is one a brahman,
        and moreover, which are the things (dhammas) that make one a brahman?

        > Atha kho bhagavaa, etam attha.m viditvaa, taaya.m
        > velaaya.m ima.m udaana.m udaanesi –
        N: atha: then
        > viditvaa: having known, penetrated
        velaa: time
        udaana: exclamation of knowledge and joy (Masefield: euphoria)
        Then the Blessed One who had penetrated the meaning, uttered at that time
        this exclamation of joy:

        > “Yo braahma.no baahita-paapa-dhammo nihu.mhu"nko
        > nikkasaavo yatatto vedantaguu vuusita-brahma-cariyo
        >
        N:baaheti (baahita): remove, abandon
        paapo: evil
        nikkasaavo: free from impurity (asaava: defilement)
        vedo: religious teaching of brahmanas.
        yata (yameti): restrained, controlled , atto: self
        vedantaguu: who excells in the vedas.
        vuusita: dwelt (vasati) fulfilled

        A brahman who has abandoned defilements, who is not a grumbler,
        free from impurity, self-restrained,
        who excells in the vedas and lives the brahman life,

        dhammena so brahmavaada.m vadeyya yassussadaa natthi
        > kuhiñci loketi.

        N:dhammena: in truth
        vaado: saying
        ussada: excessive (Co: defilements)
        kuhi.m: where
        loka: world

        He in truth could say that he is a brahman, a person who has no excesses
        anywhere in the world.

        Nina
        P.S. Corrections, please.
      • Derek Cameron <derekacameron@yahoo.com>
        Hi, Nina, Thank you for this -- I always find it hard to go first, much easier to have your draft as a starting point! ... That s an interesting reading of it
        Message 3 of 11 , Mar 2, 2003
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          Hi, Nina,

          Thank you for this -- I always find it hard to go first, much easier
          to have your draft as a starting point!

          > > katame ca pana braahma.na-kara.naa dhammaati?

          > and moreover, which are the things (dhammas) that make one a
          > brahman?

          That's an interesting reading of it -- dhammaa as "things."

          I had read it as "in what way" (katame) are "a brahmin's actions"
          (braahma.na-kara.naa) "morally good" (dhammaa). So, dhamma in the
          sense of "in accordance with the good," "morally good," "virtuous."

          Anyone else have a view on this one?

          > udaana: exclamation of knowledge and joy (Masefield: euphoria)

          I hadn't picked up on the idea that "udaana" had a sense of joy about
          it. Maybe "joyous exclamation"

          > > "Yo braahma.no baahita-paapa-dhammo nihu.mhu"nko
          > > nikkasaavo yatatto vedantaguu vuusita-brahma-cariyo

          > A brahman who has abandoned defilements,

          "abandoned defilements" for the more literal "rejected sinful things"?

          > who is not a grumbler,
          > free from impurity, self-restrained,
          > who excels in the vedas

          I had vedantaguu as something liked "of highest wisdom."

          > and lives the brahman life,

          For vuusita-brahma-cariyo I thought maybe "perfected in the holy
          life" or "perfected in celibacy"

          Comments invited on all of the above.

          Derek.
        • Derek Cameron <derekacameron@yahoo.com>
          To make it clearer I ll re-post how the translation reads so far. All are invited to make suggestions for improvement: 7th sentence ============ Kittaavataa
          Message 4 of 11 , Mar 2, 2003
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            To make it clearer I'll re-post how the translation reads so far.

            All are invited to make suggestions for improvement:


            7th sentence
            ============

            "Kittaavataa nu kho, bho gotama, braahma.no hoti,
            katame ca pana braahma.na-kara.naa dhammaati?

            "To what extent indeed, revered Gotama, is one a brahman,
            and moreover, which are the things (dhammas) that make one a brahman?

            or

            and moreover, in what way are a brahmin's actions virtuous?


            8th sentence
            ============

            Atha kho bhagavaa, etam attha.m viditvaa,
            taaya.m velaaya.m ima.m udaana.m udaanesi:

            Then the Blessed One who had penetrated the meaning,
            uttered at that time this exclamation of joy:

            or

            uttered at that time this joyous exclamation:


            9th sentence
            ============

            "Yo braahma.no baahita-paapa-dhammo nihu.mhu"nko
            nikkasaavo yatatto
            vedantaguu vuusita-brahma-cariyo
            dhammena so brahmavaada.m vadeyya
            yassussadaa natthi kuhiñci loketi.

            A brahman who has abandoned defilements, who is not a grumbler,
            free from impurity, self-restrained,
            who excels in the vedas and lives the brahman life,
            (or: of highest knowledge, perfected in the holy life)
            He in truth could say that he is a brahman,
            a person who has no excesses anywhere in the world.

            Derek
          • nina van gorkom
            Hi, Derek, op 03-03-2003 00:23 schreef Derek Cameron op ... N: Things is not so good, better: factors. which are the factors..
            Message 5 of 11 , Mar 3, 2003
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              Hi, Derek,
              op 03-03-2003 00:23 schreef Derek Cameron <derekacameron@...> op
              derekacameron@...:
              >
              >>> katame ca pana braahma.na-kara.naa dhammaati?
              >
              >> and moreover, which are the things (dhammas) that make one a
              >> brahman?
              >
              > That's an interesting reading of it -- dhammaa as "things."
              N: Things is not so good, better: factors. which are the factors..
              Woodward: what are the things...
              D: I had read it as "in what way" (katame) are "a brahmin's actions"
              > (braahma.na-kara.naa) "morally good" (dhammaa). So, dhamma in the
              > sense of "in accordance with the good," "morally good," "virtuous."
              dhamma: can be very wide. I did not think of kusala here.
              katama is which.
              >> udaana: exclamation of knowledge and joy (Masefield: euphoria)
              >
              > I hadn't picked up on the idea that "udaana" had a sense of joy about
              > it. Maybe "joyous exclamation"
              N: to me it has something abundant , abundant with enthusiasm.
              >>> "Yo braahma.no baahita-paapa-dhammo nihu.mhu"nko
              >>> nikkasaavo yatatto vedantaguu vuusita-brahma-cariyo
              >
              >> A brahman who has abandoned defilements,
              >
              > "abandoned defilements" for the more literal "rejected sinful things"?
              N: papa: evil, yes, what you say is O.K.
              >> who is not a grumbler,
              >> free from impurity, self-restrained,
              >> who excels in the vedas
              >
              > I had vedantaguu as something liked "of highest wisdom."
              N: This must be the meaning. Speaking to a brahman the vedas are meaningful,
              but now: veda in a higher sense, like Tivedha. The Buddha gave a higher
              sense to certain notions people had, so that they would grasp the deeper
              meaning.
              >> and lives the brahman life,
              >
              > For vuusita-brahma-cariyo I thought maybe "perfected in the holy
              > life" or "perfected in celibacy"
              N: brahmacariya: in a narrower sense: celibacy of recluses, in a wider
              sense: all who develop the eightfold Path. It is often tr. as divine life,
              godly life, holy life. Vuusita: lived.
              As always, there are many points, even in a few lines. Interesting to go
              into it.
              Just now I looked up the Co, tr by Masefield, and again it helps us:
              <brama.nakara.naa: they are making one a brahmin... meaning producing the
              state of a brahmin.>
              ...It is said that he did not teach that brahmin Dhamma because he was
              unreceptive to Dhamma teaching.
              <Whoever be a brahmin (yo braahma.no):whoever, on account of that state in
              which evil has been ousted, be a brahmin...> <being no "Hum hum" type >
              <"Veda- end- gone" on account of the fact of his being gone, by means of the
              Vedas reckoned as the knowledges associated with the four paths, to the end,
              to the culmination, of the formations, to nibbaana, or alternatively to the
              end of the (three) Vedas, being one who has lived the Brahmacariya ...>
              Now, yassussadaa natthi kuhiñci loketi. The last sentence: ussadaa, meaning
              excessive: Co has: preponderance:< he for whom there are no preponderances,
              viz. the preponderance of lust, the preponderance of hatred, ... of
              delusion,... of conceit, and the preponderance or (wrong) view, with
              repespect to anything, even with respect to a single object, amids the
              entire cohabitants of this world, even, meaning (he for whom these
              preponderances) are abandoned without remainder.>
              Nina
            • Derek Cameron <derekacameron@yahoo.com>
              Hi, Nina, ... Yes! I started looking at the commentary as you suggested for a word I was interested in (eka-palla nkena) but that in turn raised more
              Message 6 of 11 , Mar 3, 2003
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                Hi, Nina,

                > As always, there are many points, even in a few lines. Interesting
                > to go into it.

                Yes! I started looking at the commentary as you suggested for a word
                I was interested in (eka-palla"nkena) but that in turn raised more
                questions!

                I've put the translation up as it currently stands in the files
                section at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Pali/files/ud1-04.htm

                In the meantime I'd like to take another look at the final sentence,
                especially the word yassussadaa, as it troubles me a bit.

                > Now, yassussadaa natthi kuhiñci loketi. The last sentence: ussadaa,
                meaning
                > excessive: Co has: preponderance:< he for whom there are no
                preponderances,
                > viz. the preponderance of lust, the preponderance of hatred, ... of
                > delusion,... of conceit, and the preponderance or (wrong) view, with
                > repespect to anything, even with respect to a single object, amids
                the
                > entire cohabitants of this world, even, meaning (he for whom these
                > preponderances) are abandoned without remainder.


                Derek.
              • nina van gorkom
                Dear Derek, op 03-03-2003 22:51 schreef Derek Cameron op ... N: I looked in the Co (Masefield): in a single crosslegged position.
                Message 7 of 11 , Mar 4, 2003
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                  Dear Derek,

                  op 03-03-2003 22:51 schreef Derek Cameron <derekacameron@...> op
                  derekacameron@...:

                  > Yes! I started looking at the commentary as you suggested for a word
                  > I was interested in (eka-palla"nkena) but that in turn raised more
                  > questions!
                  N: I looked in the Co (Masefield): in a single crosslegged position.

                  > In the meantime I'd like to take another look at the final sentence,
                  > especially the word yassussadaa, as it troubles me a bit.
                  N: yassa ussadaa: of whom or for whom... ussadaa: as in Co.
                • Derek Cameron <derekacameron@yahoo.com>
                  Hi, Nina, ... Thanks for looking that up. I was going to ask you what Peter Masefield had for it, but I didn t want to impose on you! The PED gives palla nka
                  Message 8 of 11 , Mar 4, 2003
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                    Hi, Nina,

                    > N: I looked in the Co (Masefield): in a single crosslegged
                    > position.

                    Thanks for looking that up. I was going to ask you what Peter
                    Masefield had for it, but I didn't want to impose on you!

                    The PED gives palla"nka (without the eka- prefix) as cross-legged, so
                    eka-palla"nka would seem to mean something different from just
                    palla"nka on its own.

                    The derivation the PED gives is from pari + a"nka. a"nka means a hook
                    or bend. The PED says that the Magadhi form is paliyan"nka (although
                    I don't know how they would know the Magadhi form, as opposed to the
                    Pali form -- would the word be on the Asokan inscriptions?).

                    Anyway eka-palla"nka would be literally something like "one-around-
                    hooked" or "one-around-bent."

                    To me that suggests a "half-lotus" as opposed to a full-lotus
                    position. Perhaps something similar to the way Buddha statues are
                    depicted nowadays.

                    > N: yassa ussadaa: of whom or for whom... ussadaa: as in Co.

                    The PED notes that ussada is a troublesome word. The meanings it
                    gives have a sense of "out-sticking" or "out-pouring." So perhaps:

                    yassussadaa natthi kuhiñci loketi

                    "for whom" (yassa) "there are not" (natthi) "inclinations"
                    (ussadaa) "for anything" (kuhiñci) "in the world" (loke).

                    Derek.
                  • nina van gorkom
                    Hi Derek, op 04-03-2003 20:16 schreef Derek Cameron op ... N: You never impose when it concerns texts of the teachings, questions,
                    Message 9 of 11 , Mar 6, 2003
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                      Hi Derek,
                      op 04-03-2003 20:16 schreef Derek Cameron <derekacameron@...> op
                      derekacameron@...:

                      > Thanks for looking that up. I was going to ask you what Peter
                      > Masefield had for it, but I didn't want to impose on you!
                      N: You never impose when it concerns texts of the teachings, questions,
                      looking things up, I profit from this.
                      D: The PED gives palla"nka (without the eka- prefix) as cross-legged, so
                      > eka-palla"nka would seem to mean something different from just
                      > palla"nka on its own.
                      >
                      > The derivation the PED gives is from pari + a"nka. a"nka means a hook
                      > or bend. The PED says that the Magadhi form is paliyan"nka (although
                      > I don't know how they would know the Magadhi form, as opposed to the
                      > Pali form -- would the word be on the Asokan inscriptions?).
                      > Anyway eka-palla"nka would be literally something like "one-around-
                      > hooked" or "one-around-bent."
                      N: Interesting this deviation. Now with eka: As I see it, this refers to
                      one sitting at a stretch for a long time, namely, after the Buddha's
                      enlightenment he was contemplating, sitting in one position.
                      This is very interesting, see Vinaya (IV Mahaavagga, tr by Horner. In some
                      annotations, it is vol I), she says she followed the Udaana tr. :
                      <At one time ... Then the Lord sat cross-legged in one (posture) for seven
                      days at the foot of the Tree of Awakening experiencing the bliss of freedom
                      (vimuttisukha).>
                      Note to one posture: eka-palla"nkena.
                      >
                      >D: The PED notes that ussada is a troublesome word. The meanings it
                      > gives have a sense of "out-sticking" or "out-pouring." So perhaps:
                      >
                      > yassussadaa natthi kuhiñci loketi
                      >
                      > "for whom" (yassa) "there are not" (natthi) "inclinations"
                      > (ussadaa) "for anything" (kuhiñci) "in the world" (loke).
                      N: The Co indicates that these ussadas are all the defilements.
                      "preponderants" or excesses. It names the lobha, dosa, di.t.thi, maana, etc.
                      kuhi.m is where, not: for anything.
                      Nina.
                    • Derek Cameron
                      Hi, Nina, ... Thank you! I also like to really go into things, when time allows. ... Oh, so that s it. I hadn t thought of that angle at all. Eka- palla nkena
                      Message 10 of 11 , Mar 6, 2003
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                        Hi, Nina,

                        > > Thanks for looking that up. I was going to ask you what Peter
                        > > Masefield had for it, but I didn't want to impose on you!

                        > N: You never impose when it concerns texts of the teachings,
                        > questions, looking things up, I profit from this.

                        Thank you! I also like to really go into things, when time allows.

                        > > Anyway eka-palla"nka would be literally something like
                        > > "one-around-hooked" or "one-around-bent."

                        > N: Interesting this deviation. Now with eka: As I see it, this
                        > refers to one sitting at a stretch for a long time, namely, after
                        > the Buddha's enlightenment he was contemplating, sitting in one
                        > position.

                        Oh, so that's it. I hadn't thought of that angle at all. Eka-
                        palla"nkena as sort of "one-sitting," i.e., one session.

                        > N: The Co indicates that these ussadas are all the defilements.
                        > "preponderants" or excesses. It names the lobha, dosa, di.t.thi,
                        > maana, etc.

                        I see what you mean ... something that sticks out, something that is
                        excessive, something done to excess, a preponderant characteristic of
                        the individual ... I can't find a way in English of conveying exactly
                        that all in one word though.

                        Derek.
                      • Lars
                        ... things ? ... About papa as evil see the the very interesting article by L.S. Cousins: http://jbe.gold.ac.uk/3/cousins1.html (The part about papa and
                        Message 11 of 11 , Mar 8, 2003
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                          --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom <nilo@e...> wrote:
                          > >
                          > >> A brahman who has abandoned defilements,
                          > >
                          > > "abandoned defilements" for the more literal "rejected sinful
                          things"?
                          > N: papa: evil, yes, what you say is O.K.

                          About papa as "evil" see the the very interesting article by L.S.
                          Cousins: http://jbe.gold.ac.uk/3/cousins1.html (The part about papa
                          and pu~n~na is a bit further down)

                          Greetings
                          Lars
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