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Re: [Pali] Divine revelation in Pali Buddhism

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  • Peter Masefield
    ... In the third chapter of my book, I give textual references for five distinct ways in which this seems to have taken place: (1) by hearing a further
    Message 1 of 18 , Aug 2 6:53 AM
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      "Äìèò?èé Èâàõíåíêî (Dimitry Ivakhnenko)" wrote:

      > So we may ask a question: how exactly the listeners attained full
      > release from aasavas (fermentation/affluents)

      In the third chapter of my book, I give textual references for five distinct ways in which
      this seems to have taken place:

      (1) by hearing a further discourse (e.g. Vin I 13f);

      (2) by being exhorted with Dhamma-talk (e.g. Vin I 181f);

      (3) by receiving an exhortation in brief (Vin I 18);

      (4) by a teaching involving the four verbs of sandasseti, samaadapeti, samuttejeti, and
      sampaha.mseti (e.g. D II 42)

      (5) by reviewing Dhamma heard (e.g. M I 501).

      In addition, I append tables citing occassions upon which various individuals (a) received
      the Dhammacakkhu via an anupubbikathaa; and (b) attained arahantship through a further
      oral tecahing.

      Peter Masefield.
    • Äìèòðèé Èâàõíåíêî (Dimit
      Peter Masefield wrote: PM In the third chapter of my book, I give textual references for five distinct ways in which PM this seems to have taken place:
      Message 2 of 18 , Aug 2 8:48 AM
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        Peter Masefield wrote:
        PM> In the third chapter of my book, I give textual references for five distinct ways in which
        PM> this seems to have taken place:

        Currently your valuable book is unavailable for me, however I may
        consider buying it in the future.

        PM> (5) by reviewing Dhamma heard (e.g. M I 501).

        The excerpt from this Magandiya sutta is available at
        http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn75.html

        PM> In addition, I append tables citing occassions upon which various individuals (a) received
        PM> the Dhammacakkhu via an anupubbikathaa; and (b) attained arahantship through a further
        PM> oral tecahing.

        So far I have found ten instances of (b) with oral teaching included
        in the sutta:

        Mahaapu.n.nama MN 3.1.9 (109) III.15 (available at metta.lk)
        Chachakka MN 3.5.6 (148) III.280 (available on the net)
        Ti.msamatta SN 2.4.3 II.187
        Anatta-lakkhana SN 22.59 III.66 (available)
        Khemaka SN 3.1.7 III.126
        Aaditta SN 35.28 IV.19 (available)
        Aggikkhandhopama AN 7.7.8 IV.128
        Dvayatanupassana Snp III.12 139 (available)
        Pañcavaggiyakathaa Vin 1.6 I.7
        Uruvelapaa.tihaariyakathaa Vin 1.12 I.24


        Dimitry Ivakhnenko
      • OlBeggaO@pacbell.net
        I say it ain t right There are two problems connected with translating sammaa as right : The first is that here in the West this word has been taken from its
        Message 3 of 18 , Aug 6 7:57 PM
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          I say it ain't right

          There are two problems connected with translating sammaa as "right":

          The first is that here in the West this word has been taken from its
          origins as a carpenters term for an upright or perpendicular angle, a
          right angle, or Upright, and made into a term standing for power and
          authority: "righteous" (or, as "correct" it means "the only correct"
          or as "propper" it means the rest is impropper) and "with the right
          to". The use as Upright is not heard at all, and that would be the
          meaning that was needed, at least for the elements of the Magga,
          although it would be awkward elsewhere. But that is not how, even, I
          see the elements of the Magga, that is to say as being the upright
          ways of things; I see them rather as the ways that work in a system
          designed to accomplish something. This will become apparent if you
          examine the structure of the individual elements. They are not stated
          in terms of static states, they are stated in terms that will be
          interpreted differently by different individuals at different stages
          of progress. So what is needed is not a term that describes an
          absolute.

          So the second is that this is a term that must be used as to describe
          a conditional state of things, not an absolutely correct
          position. "Right" allows only for any other alternative to
          be "wrong", and that is not what is being said in most cases where
          samma is being used, it is simply saying that this is the best for
          those going This Way, second best is not necessarily wrong, and
          certainly not wrong for those who are going that way. Samma ditthi is
          the point of view you adopt in order to overcome views of self and
          existence, once those have been overcome, samma ditthi too must be
          abandoned as just one of the limitless ways of seeing things. (All
          views are to be let go.) Remember the simile of the raft.If right
          were right and wrong were wrong, then right view would be right for
          the Arahant as well as for the student, and that is not the case. It
          needs to be a word that stands for "best under these conditions".

          I think that reliance on the fact that Pali is the root (or close to
          it) of all IndoEuropean languages, as has been said, is a good
          justification for seeking in the etymology of the word for the best
          translation. From summa then, we have (at least) two alternatives:
          the terms "high" (I suppose we could say "top") and "consummate"
          depending on how closely you want to stick to the sound of the root.

          Both these terms allow for understanding the thing it is conditioning
          to be conditionally the best, and yet allow for that which is second
          best to not necessarily be wrong, just not the highest, or the best
          in this case.

          My preference is for High, because that word fits all round, as
          in. . . ahum. . . sammasamadhi = high getting high, or
          sammasambuddhassa=the high #1 wide awakened one.

          As for miccha, it breaks down (me>wee) into "small-stuff"; so you
          could say "low", which is my preference. PED has, as well
          as "wrong", "contrary".

          By the way, a Google search reveals 500 plus references to Buddhology
          and several universities and other institutions that offer degrees in
          the science (many of them in Asia) (I have no idea what it is all
          about). That fellow was a tad on the blunt side, for sure, and did
          not consider his audience, but I believe a close look will reveal
          that it was he that was being attacked and that there was a bit of
          the pack mentality going on here. Not exactly something to be proud
          of.

          obo

          Please understand, I must be off, it is not right that I should
          linger where I have taken a stand against the owner of the list! I do
          it wishing only that you not neglect to wish well even to your
          enemies. This not being you, yourself, who then may they be but
          suchas suchas you?

          best to you all!

          obo
          My next actions will be to resign from the list.
          Bye bye, adios or better yet Ni banna!
        • ypong001@yahoo.com
          Generally, I believe that the word sammaa can be appropriately translated into several English terms. To me, however, it is more important to understand the
          Message 4 of 18 , Aug 7 2:43 AM
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            Generally, I believe that the word sammaa can be appropriately
            translated into several English terms. To me, however, it is more
            important to understand the meaning of "right" view than to enter a
            hot debate as to whether "right" is right.

            I have also pointed out in an earlier mail that the context in which
            doctrine fit in is comparatively more important. I did mention that
            "right" does not mean that only what the Buddha taught are "holy" and
            good while the rest are evil and wrong. That's certainly not the
            buddhist approach. The word "right" has to be understood in the
            context of the Middle Path, in its effect of the eradication of
            dukkha.

            At times, the selection of words for English translation can be
            disputable. This list is certainly open for members to post their
            opinions for discussion and consideration, but the tone used has to
            be friendly and non-agressive.

            metta,
            Yong Peng.
            moderator
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