Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re[2]: [Pali] Divine revelation in Pali Buddhism

Expand Messages
  • ������� ��������� (Dimitry Ivakhnenko)
    ... PM I am sorry to say that I do not entirely understand the question. The oral PM revelation, known as the anupubbikathaa, is constantly documented
    Message 1 of 18 , Aug 2, 2001
    • 0 Attachment
      >> Peter Masefield wrote:
      PM> I am sorry to say that I do not entirely understand the question. The oral
      PM> revelation, known as the anupubbikathaa, is constantly documented throughout the
      PM> Nikaayas, though it should be added that many of the early editions of these texts,
      PM> and their translations, by the Pali Text Society are so highly abbreviated, that
      PM> this point frequently becomes lost on the casual reader.

      Sorry am I for insufficient clarity of my question. Thank you very
      much for your detailed description of anupubbikathaa (oral revelation).

      As you have pointed out, the discourses were gelivered in different
      manner to people in general, and to those who had already been enlightened
      by means of such a progressive talk. Accordingly the results were
      different, from attaining the level of stream-winner, or in another
      terms, arising of the dustless, stainless Dhamma eye "Whatever is subject
      to origination is all subject to cessation," as in case of
      Suppabuddha, to full release from fermentation/effluents.

      The latter cases are of special interest, since they embody the attainment
      of the ultimate goal of Buddhist path. However reading the
      suttas after which numerous monks were enlightened, like
      Anatta-lakkhana, Aditta-pariyaya, or Chachakka, the casual reader
      finds just some kind of philosophical dispute, and hardly progresses
      an inch further on the Path. The compilers and translators, apparently
      finding repetitions to be tiresome and uninteresting, just leave them
      out.

      So we may ask a question: how exactly the listeners attained full
      release from aasavas (fermentation/affluents), and what was the purpose
      of the repetitions.

      Some people may answer that full release was due to the personal
      powers of Tathagata and that repetitions were used for memorizing of
      the suttas. However such answers don't stand up to careful
      examination: the suttas for attaining full or partial release have
      characteristic patterns, and it is certain elements of them which are
      repeated.

      Investigating the famous Anatta-lakkhana sutta, or less known but more
      detailed Chachakka sutta, we find that Buddha guided his disciples in
      experiential exploration of khandhas (aggregates of clinging/becoming)
      and salayatana (six senses). Apparently the advanced diciples, while
      these suttas were given, were able to connect words of Buddha with
      their personal experience. So when Buddha asked:
      "How do you consider, monks -- Is form constant or inconstant?"
      the monks were able to investigate their experience and give the
      appropriate answer. The usual translation of 'ta.m ki.m ma~n~natha' as
      'what do you think' gives the impression of theoretical discussion,
      however the words went deeper.

      So we can ask ourselves, can we read such suttas on a deeper level,
      investigating the experience? And if we can do so at least with more
      detailed suttas, such as Chachakka, will it give us a real progress on
      the Path?

      Metta,
      Dimitry
    • Peter Masefield
      ... In the third chapter of my book, I give textual references for five distinct ways in which this seems to have taken place: (1) by hearing a further
      Message 2 of 18 , Aug 2, 2001
      • 0 Attachment
        "Äìèò?èé Èâàõíåíêî (Dimitry Ivakhnenko)" wrote:

        > So we may ask a question: how exactly the listeners attained full
        > release from aasavas (fermentation/affluents)

        In the third chapter of my book, I give textual references for five distinct ways in which
        this seems to have taken place:

        (1) by hearing a further discourse (e.g. Vin I 13f);

        (2) by being exhorted with Dhamma-talk (e.g. Vin I 181f);

        (3) by receiving an exhortation in brief (Vin I 18);

        (4) by a teaching involving the four verbs of sandasseti, samaadapeti, samuttejeti, and
        sampaha.mseti (e.g. D II 42)

        (5) by reviewing Dhamma heard (e.g. M I 501).

        In addition, I append tables citing occassions upon which various individuals (a) received
        the Dhammacakkhu via an anupubbikathaa; and (b) attained arahantship through a further
        oral tecahing.

        Peter Masefield.
      • Äìèòðèé Èâàõíåíêî (Dimit
        Peter Masefield wrote: PM In the third chapter of my book, I give textual references for five distinct ways in which PM this seems to have taken place:
        Message 3 of 18 , Aug 2, 2001
        • 0 Attachment
          Peter Masefield wrote:
          PM> In the third chapter of my book, I give textual references for five distinct ways in which
          PM> this seems to have taken place:

          Currently your valuable book is unavailable for me, however I may
          consider buying it in the future.

          PM> (5) by reviewing Dhamma heard (e.g. M I 501).

          The excerpt from this Magandiya sutta is available at
          http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn75.html

          PM> In addition, I append tables citing occassions upon which various individuals (a) received
          PM> the Dhammacakkhu via an anupubbikathaa; and (b) attained arahantship through a further
          PM> oral tecahing.

          So far I have found ten instances of (b) with oral teaching included
          in the sutta:

          Mahaapu.n.nama MN 3.1.9 (109) III.15 (available at metta.lk)
          Chachakka MN 3.5.6 (148) III.280 (available on the net)
          Ti.msamatta SN 2.4.3 II.187
          Anatta-lakkhana SN 22.59 III.66 (available)
          Khemaka SN 3.1.7 III.126
          Aaditta SN 35.28 IV.19 (available)
          Aggikkhandhopama AN 7.7.8 IV.128
          Dvayatanupassana Snp III.12 139 (available)
          Pañcavaggiyakathaa Vin 1.6 I.7
          Uruvelapaa.tihaariyakathaa Vin 1.12 I.24


          Dimitry Ivakhnenko
        • OlBeggaO@pacbell.net
          I say it ain t right There are two problems connected with translating sammaa as right : The first is that here in the West this word has been taken from its
          Message 4 of 18 , Aug 6, 2001
          • 0 Attachment
            I say it ain't right

            There are two problems connected with translating sammaa as "right":

            The first is that here in the West this word has been taken from its
            origins as a carpenters term for an upright or perpendicular angle, a
            right angle, or Upright, and made into a term standing for power and
            authority: "righteous" (or, as "correct" it means "the only correct"
            or as "propper" it means the rest is impropper) and "with the right
            to". The use as Upright is not heard at all, and that would be the
            meaning that was needed, at least for the elements of the Magga,
            although it would be awkward elsewhere. But that is not how, even, I
            see the elements of the Magga, that is to say as being the upright
            ways of things; I see them rather as the ways that work in a system
            designed to accomplish something. This will become apparent if you
            examine the structure of the individual elements. They are not stated
            in terms of static states, they are stated in terms that will be
            interpreted differently by different individuals at different stages
            of progress. So what is needed is not a term that describes an
            absolute.

            So the second is that this is a term that must be used as to describe
            a conditional state of things, not an absolutely correct
            position. "Right" allows only for any other alternative to
            be "wrong", and that is not what is being said in most cases where
            samma is being used, it is simply saying that this is the best for
            those going This Way, second best is not necessarily wrong, and
            certainly not wrong for those who are going that way. Samma ditthi is
            the point of view you adopt in order to overcome views of self and
            existence, once those have been overcome, samma ditthi too must be
            abandoned as just one of the limitless ways of seeing things. (All
            views are to be let go.) Remember the simile of the raft.If right
            were right and wrong were wrong, then right view would be right for
            the Arahant as well as for the student, and that is not the case. It
            needs to be a word that stands for "best under these conditions".

            I think that reliance on the fact that Pali is the root (or close to
            it) of all IndoEuropean languages, as has been said, is a good
            justification for seeking in the etymology of the word for the best
            translation. From summa then, we have (at least) two alternatives:
            the terms "high" (I suppose we could say "top") and "consummate"
            depending on how closely you want to stick to the sound of the root.

            Both these terms allow for understanding the thing it is conditioning
            to be conditionally the best, and yet allow for that which is second
            best to not necessarily be wrong, just not the highest, or the best
            in this case.

            My preference is for High, because that word fits all round, as
            in. . . ahum. . . sammasamadhi = high getting high, or
            sammasambuddhassa=the high #1 wide awakened one.

            As for miccha, it breaks down (me>wee) into "small-stuff"; so you
            could say "low", which is my preference. PED has, as well
            as "wrong", "contrary".

            By the way, a Google search reveals 500 plus references to Buddhology
            and several universities and other institutions that offer degrees in
            the science (many of them in Asia) (I have no idea what it is all
            about). That fellow was a tad on the blunt side, for sure, and did
            not consider his audience, but I believe a close look will reveal
            that it was he that was being attacked and that there was a bit of
            the pack mentality going on here. Not exactly something to be proud
            of.

            obo

            Please understand, I must be off, it is not right that I should
            linger where I have taken a stand against the owner of the list! I do
            it wishing only that you not neglect to wish well even to your
            enemies. This not being you, yourself, who then may they be but
            suchas suchas you?

            best to you all!

            obo
            My next actions will be to resign from the list.
            Bye bye, adios or better yet Ni banna!
          • ypong001@yahoo.com
            Generally, I believe that the word sammaa can be appropriately translated into several English terms. To me, however, it is more important to understand the
            Message 5 of 18 , Aug 7, 2001
            • 0 Attachment
              Generally, I believe that the word sammaa can be appropriately
              translated into several English terms. To me, however, it is more
              important to understand the meaning of "right" view than to enter a
              hot debate as to whether "right" is right.

              I have also pointed out in an earlier mail that the context in which
              doctrine fit in is comparatively more important. I did mention that
              "right" does not mean that only what the Buddha taught are "holy" and
              good while the rest are evil and wrong. That's certainly not the
              buddhist approach. The word "right" has to be understood in the
              context of the Middle Path, in its effect of the eradication of
              dukkha.

              At times, the selection of words for English translation can be
              disputable. This list is certainly open for members to post their
              opinions for discussion and consideration, but the tone used has to
              be friendly and non-agressive.

              metta,
              Yong Peng.
              moderator
            Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.