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Re: [Pali] Mass of Fire Simile, 4th sentence

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  • Dimitry Ivakhnenko
    DC Nisajja kho bhagavaa bhikkhuu aamantesi: passatha no tumhe bhikkhave DC amu.m mahanta.m aggikkhandha.m aaditta.m sampajjalita.m DC sajotibhuuta.m? ti.
    Message 1 of 5 , Aug 1, 2001
      DC> Nisajja kho bhagavaa bhikkhuu aamantesi: "passatha no tumhe bhikkhave
      DC> amu.m mahanta.m aggikkhandha.m aaditta.m sampajjalita.m
      DC> sajotibhuuta.m?"ti. "Eva.m bhante"ti.

      Having sat down, the Blessed One adressed the monks:
      "Have you seen, monks, that large burning, blazing and glowing mass
      of fire?"
      "Yes, venerable Sir."

      Dimitry
    • Dimitry Ivakhnenko
      While the cavalry rescues the 3rd sentence and scouting party investigates the 4th, let s send a postal pigeon to the 5th, since it is rather long and requires
      Message 2 of 5 , Aug 1, 2001
        While the cavalry rescues the 3rd sentence and scouting party
        investigates the 4th, let's send a postal pigeon to the 5th, since it is
        rather long and requires special consideration:

        “Ta.m ki.m maññatha, bhikkhave, katama.m nu kho vara.m – ya.m
        amu.m mahanta.m aggikkhandha.m aaditta.m sampajjalita.m
        sajotibhuuta.m aali'ngetvaa upanisiideyya vaa upanipajjeyya vaa,
        ya.m vaa khattiyakañña.m vaa braahma.nakañña.m vaa gahapatikañña.m
        vaa mudutalunahatthapaada.m aali'ngetvaa upanisiideyya vaa upanipajjeyya
        vaa”ti?

        ta.m = third person singular pronoun (neuter
        nominative-accusative or masc.-fem. accusative)
        ki.m = what (neuter singular of 'ka' as an interrogative
        particle)
        maññatha = (you) think (plural 2nd person of 'maññati')
        bhikkhave = monks (vocative plural)
        katama.m = which
        nu = then, now (interrogative particle)
        kho = now, then (emphatic particle)
        vara.m = best, supreme, better, most excellent
        ya.m = that which, whether (relative pronoun)
        amu.m = that (accusative)
        mahanta.m = large (accusative of mahaa, adjective in -ant)
        aggikkhanda.m = fire-mass, mass of fire
        aaditta.m = on fire, blazing, burning
        sampajjalita.m = in flames, ablaze
        sajotibhuuta.m = ablaze, aglow
        aali'ngetvaa = having empraced, past adverbial participle of
        'aali'ngati'
        upanisiideyya = optative of 'upanisiidati', to sit close to or down
        by
        vaa = or
        upanipajjeyya = optative of 'upanipajjati', to lie down close or on
        top of (with object in accusative case)
        khattiyakañña.m = a maid of khattiya (Sk. k,satriya, arictocratic) birth
        (accusative case)
        braahma.nakañña.m = a maid of braahma.na birth
        gahapatikañña.m = a maid of gahapatika (householder) birth
        mudu-taluna-hatthapaada.m = tender young hand and foot
        ti = thus, end-quote



        Girls, girls, girls... This unwordly logic reminds me of another sutta,
        Sutta Nipata III.12, Dvayatanupassana Sutta, The Contemplation of Dualities
        http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/suttanipata/snp3-12.html

        What would my friends from Tibetan Vajrayana say about this sutta?
        And what about the current utmost peak of beauty and spirituality,
        shown daily on TV and ads?
        The fire burns.

        Dimitry
      • Derek Cameron
        ... gahapatikañña.m ... upanipajjeyya ... Something like this: What do you think, monks? Which is better? Having embraced that large, burning, blazing,
        Message 3 of 5 , Aug 1, 2001
          > "Ta.m ki.m maññatha, bhikkhave, katama.m nu kho vara.m – ya.m
          > amu.m mahanta.m aggikkhandha.m aaditta.m sampajjalita.m
          > sajotibhuuta.m aali'ngetvaa upanisiideyya vaa upanipajjeyya vaa,
          > ya.m vaa khattiyakañña.m vaa braahma.nakañña.m vaa
          gahapatikañña.m
          > vaa mudutalunahatthapaada.m aali'ngetvaa upanisiideyya vaa
          upanipajjeyya
          > vaa"ti?

          Something like this:

          What do you think, monks? Which is better? Having embraced that
          large, burning, blazing, glowing mass of fire, to sit or lie down
          with it? Or, having embraced a noblewoman, or a woman of high birth,
          or a householder woman, or a woman of tender young hands and feet, to
          sit or lie down with her?

          Derek.
        • Dimitry Ivakhnenko
          ... DC Something like this: DC What do you think, monks? Which is better? Having embraced that DC large, burning, blazing, glowing mass of fire, to sit or
          Message 4 of 5 , Aug 1, 2001
            >> "Ta.m ki.m maññatha, bhikkhave, katama.m nu kho vara.m – ya.m
            >> amu.m mahanta.m aggikkhandha.m aaditta.m sampajjalita.m
            >> sajotibhuuta.m aali'ngetvaa upanisiideyya vaa upanipajjeyya vaa,
            >> ya.m vaa khattiyakañña.m vaa braahma.nakañña.m vaa gahapatikañña.m
            >> vaa mudutalunahatthapaada.m aali'ngetvaa upanisiideyya vaa upanipajjeyya
            >> vaa"ti?

            DC> Something like this:

            DC> What do you think, monks? Which is better? Having embraced that
            DC> large, burning, blazing, glowing mass of fire, to sit or lie down
            DC> with it? Or, having embraced a noblewoman, or a woman of high birth,
            DC> or a householder woman, or a woman of tender young hands and feet, to
            DC> sit or lie down with her?

            Maybe 'to sit or lie down close to'
            'to sit or lie down near'

            Also I would preserve 'khattiya' and 'braahma.na', with footnotes
            provided.

            'vaa' is used after the enumerated item, so 'of tender young hands and
            feet' probably refers to all three types of maidens.

            'kaññaa' = a young (unmarried) woman, maiden, girl.

            Dimitry
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