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Re: [Pali] Re: Mass of Fire Simile, 3rd sentence

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  • Dimitry Ivakhnenko
    Hi, Pali people, ... DC from passati DC I treat this as disvaa + na or disvaa + ena, i.e., having seen it disvaana is listed both in Rhys Davids
    Message 1 of 13 , Aug 1 12:25 AM
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      Hi, Pali people,

      >> disvaana - having seen, past adverbial participle
      DC> from 'passati'

      DC> I treat this as disvaa + na or disvaa + ena, i.e., "having seen it"

      'disvaana' is listed both in Rhys Davids dictionary and Gair and
      Karunatillake textbook. However 'it' may be implied.

      >> okkamma - approaching (present participle from 'okkamati')
      >> someone approaching

      DC> I assume this refers to the mass of fire "appearing," but what case
      DC> is it? What is the ending -a?

      There is another interpretation:

      maggaa okkamma

      Why 'from road'?

      Probably 'okkamma' is an aorist past form of 'okkamati'

      Russian: soshel s dorogi

      And taking in account Sanskrit 'kram' as 'to step'
      and Sanskrit aorist 'akramiit / akra.msta' -

      English: stepped from the road

      It was a high road after all, with no trees growing on it :)

      Metta,
      Dimitry
    • Derek Cameron
      Good point. The useful table at the back of A.K. Warder lists disvaa as the gerund/absolutive of passati, and kamma as the gerund/absolutive of kamati. So
      Message 2 of 13 , Aug 1 2:29 AM
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        Good point.

        The useful table at the back of A.K. Warder lists disvaa as the
        gerund/absolutive of passati, and kamma as the gerund/absolutive of
        kamati.

        So putting together all of our contributions I get:

        "Having seen it, [and] having stepped down from the path, he sat down
        on the appointed seat at the root of a tree."

        Derek.
      • Ong Teng Kee
        Hi, I find my english grammar book gives ex.having gone to(gantva) as compound gerund for this pubbakiriya in pali. Action noun like swimming etc is call
        Message 3 of 13 , Aug 1 4:26 AM
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          Hi,
          I find my english grammar book gives ex.having gone
          to(gantva) as compound gerund for this pubbakiriya in
          pali.
          Action noun like swimming etc is call gerund
          .buddhadatta in his grammar book give past participle
          can be used freely in the place for pubbakiriya.



          --- Derek Cameron <derekacameron@...> wrote:
          > --- In Pali@y..., "Dimitry Ivakhnenko" <koleso@i...>
          > wrote:
          > > In my humble opinion 'Gerunds' was the closest
          > term that
          > > English-speaking grammarians could find for Pali
          > adverbial
          > > participles.
          >
          > Agreed. A gerund is really a noun. The confusion
          > arises because in
          > English, both gerunds and present participles end in
          > -ing.
          >
          > I like your term "adverbial participle." The other
          > alternative
          > ("absolutive") is pretty cryptic.
          >
          > Derek.
          >
          >
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        • ������� ��������� (Dimitry Ivakhnenko)
          Hi, Ong Teng Kee wrote: OTK I find my english grammar book gives ex.having gone OTK to(gantva) as compound gerund for this pubbakiriya in OTK pali. OTK
          Message 4 of 13 , Aug 1 5:35 AM
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            Hi,

            Ong Teng Kee wrote:
            OTK> I find my english grammar book gives ex.having gone
            OTK> to(gantva) as compound gerund for this pubbakiriya in
            OTK> pali.
            OTK> Action noun like swimming etc is call gerund
            OTK> .buddhadatta in his grammar book give past participle
            OTK> can be used freely in the place for pubbakiriya.

            Thank you, I would like to learn more about pubbakiriya.

            In Russian beside participles there is a special class of forms called
            'adverbial participles' (deeprichastiya), with '-av' ending for past and
            '-aya' for present, which closely correspond to Pali '-tva' and '-aya' forms.

            So please write whether '-aya' forms express past or present, so that
            I will be able to make exact translations.

            Dimitry
          • Ong Teng Kee
            Hi, Do you have a copy of Intro to pali by Warder.He put gerund (compound gerund for me and undeclineable /absolutive for many other teachers) for pubbakiriya
            Message 5 of 13 , Aug 2 4:33 AM
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              Hi,
              Do you have a copy of Intro to pali by Warder.He put
              gerund (compound gerund for me and undeclineable
              /absolutive for many other teachers)
              for pubbakiriya like gantva-having gone to follow by
              another verb in a phrase.There are some pubbakiriya
              ended in ya ,tvana .
              And in other part he gave action noun (real gerund in
              English grammar)for word like dassana which usually in
              dative case with ya added.This kind is not absolutive
              (undecline like the above )and it is not a verb like
              above.
              I never heard of adverbial participles in english but
              i think i learned it before in german grammar text.
              In pali past and present participles can be used us
              adjective,noun,present and past perfect verb.See
              Warder 's book.


              Teng Kee


              --- "������� ��������� (Dimitry Ivakhnenko)"
              <koleso@...> wrote:
              > Hi,
              >
              > Ong Teng Kee wrote:
              > OTK> I find my english grammar book gives ex.having
              > gone
              > OTK> to(gantva) as compound gerund for this
              > pubbakiriya in
              > OTK> pali.
              > OTK> Action noun like swimming etc is call gerund
              > OTK> .buddhadatta in his grammar book give past
              > participle
              > OTK> can be used freely in the place for
              > pubbakiriya.
              >
              > Thank you, I would like to learn more about
              > pubbakiriya.
              >
              > In Russian beside participles there is a special
              > class of forms called
              > 'adverbial participles' (deeprichastiya), with '-av'
              > ending for past and
              > '-aya' for present, which closely correspond to Pali
              > '-tva' and '-aya' forms.
              >
              > So please write whether '-aya' forms express past or
              > present, so that
              > I will be able to make exact translations.
              >
              > Dimitry
              >
              >
              >
              > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
              >
              > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
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              > to daily digest or web only.
              > [Homepage] http://www.tipitaka.net
              > [Discussion] http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Pali
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              > [Moderator] Pali-owner@yahoogroups.com
              >
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              > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
              >
              >




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            • ������� ��������� (Dimitry Ivakhnenko)
              Hi, OTK Do you have a copy of Intro to pali by Warder. No. OTK He put gerund (compound gerund for me and undeclineable OTK /absolutive for many other
              Message 6 of 13 , Aug 2 9:34 AM
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                Hi,

                OTK> Do you have a copy of Intro to pali by Warder.

                No.

                OTK> He put gerund (compound gerund for me and undeclineable
                OTK> /absolutive for many other teachers)
                OTK> for pubbakiriya like gantva-having gone to follow by
                OTK> another verb in a phrase.There are some pubbakiriya
                OTK> ended in ya ,tvana .

                Well, I looked up Sanskrit grammar and found that -tvaa and -ya
                forms really correspond to Russian adverbial participles, however
                both forms can denote either past or present.

                Thus the term 'absolutive' is also fully justified.

                OTK> And in other part he gave action noun (real gerund in
                OTK> English grammar)for word like dassana which usually in
                OTK> dative case with ya added.This kind is not absolutive
                OTK> (undecline like the above )and it is not a verb like
                OTK> above.

                It seems that in this case he is right, dassana - seeing, dassanaaya -
                in order to see, for the purpose of seeing. Maybe he should have called
                this gerund.

                Dimitry
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