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Re: [Pali] Re: Mass of Fire Simile, 3rd sentence

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  • Piya Tan
    Derek, Buddhadatta (A Concise Pali-English Dictionary) explains okkamma as an absolutive, having gone aside from . From the context of the word, I think we
    Message 1 of 13 , Aug 1, 2001
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      Derek,

      Buddhadatta (A Concise Pali-English Dictionary) explains okkamma as an absolutive,
      "having gone aside from". From the context of the word, I think we could better
      render it as "stepping out of (the highway)" (that is, after seeing the mass of
      blaze, the Buddha decided to stop and sit under a tree to use the fire as an object
      lesson.

      P.

      Derek Cameron wrote:

      > Hi, Pali people,
      >
      > > disvaana - having seen, past adverbial participle
      > from 'passati'
      >
      > I treat this as disvaa + na or disvaa + ena, i.e., "having seen it"
      >
      > > okkamma - approaching (present participle from 'okkamati')
      > > someone approaching
      >
      > I assume this refers to the mass of fire "appearing," but what case
      > is it? What is the ending -a?
      >
      > Derek.
      >
      >
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    • Dimitry Ivakhnenko
      Hi, Pali people, ... DC from passati DC I treat this as disvaa + na or disvaa + ena, i.e., having seen it disvaana is listed both in Rhys Davids
      Message 2 of 13 , Aug 1, 2001
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        Hi, Pali people,

        >> disvaana - having seen, past adverbial participle
        DC> from 'passati'

        DC> I treat this as disvaa + na or disvaa + ena, i.e., "having seen it"

        'disvaana' is listed both in Rhys Davids dictionary and Gair and
        Karunatillake textbook. However 'it' may be implied.

        >> okkamma - approaching (present participle from 'okkamati')
        >> someone approaching

        DC> I assume this refers to the mass of fire "appearing," but what case
        DC> is it? What is the ending -a?

        There is another interpretation:

        maggaa okkamma

        Why 'from road'?

        Probably 'okkamma' is an aorist past form of 'okkamati'

        Russian: soshel s dorogi

        And taking in account Sanskrit 'kram' as 'to step'
        and Sanskrit aorist 'akramiit / akra.msta' -

        English: stepped from the road

        It was a high road after all, with no trees growing on it :)

        Metta,
        Dimitry
      • Derek Cameron
        Good point. The useful table at the back of A.K. Warder lists disvaa as the gerund/absolutive of passati, and kamma as the gerund/absolutive of kamati. So
        Message 3 of 13 , Aug 1, 2001
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          Good point.

          The useful table at the back of A.K. Warder lists disvaa as the
          gerund/absolutive of passati, and kamma as the gerund/absolutive of
          kamati.

          So putting together all of our contributions I get:

          "Having seen it, [and] having stepped down from the path, he sat down
          on the appointed seat at the root of a tree."

          Derek.
        • Ong Teng Kee
          Hi, I find my english grammar book gives ex.having gone to(gantva) as compound gerund for this pubbakiriya in pali. Action noun like swimming etc is call
          Message 4 of 13 , Aug 1, 2001
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            Hi,
            I find my english grammar book gives ex.having gone
            to(gantva) as compound gerund for this pubbakiriya in
            pali.
            Action noun like swimming etc is call gerund
            .buddhadatta in his grammar book give past participle
            can be used freely in the place for pubbakiriya.



            --- Derek Cameron <derekacameron@...> wrote:
            > --- In Pali@y..., "Dimitry Ivakhnenko" <koleso@i...>
            > wrote:
            > > In my humble opinion 'Gerunds' was the closest
            > term that
            > > English-speaking grammarians could find for Pali
            > adverbial
            > > participles.
            >
            > Agreed. A gerund is really a noun. The confusion
            > arises because in
            > English, both gerunds and present participles end in
            > -ing.
            >
            > I like your term "adverbial participle." The other
            > alternative
            > ("absolutive") is pretty cryptic.
            >
            > Derek.
            >
            >
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          • ������� ��������� (Dimitry Ivakhnenko)
            Hi, Ong Teng Kee wrote: OTK I find my english grammar book gives ex.having gone OTK to(gantva) as compound gerund for this pubbakiriya in OTK pali. OTK
            Message 5 of 13 , Aug 1, 2001
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              Hi,

              Ong Teng Kee wrote:
              OTK> I find my english grammar book gives ex.having gone
              OTK> to(gantva) as compound gerund for this pubbakiriya in
              OTK> pali.
              OTK> Action noun like swimming etc is call gerund
              OTK> .buddhadatta in his grammar book give past participle
              OTK> can be used freely in the place for pubbakiriya.

              Thank you, I would like to learn more about pubbakiriya.

              In Russian beside participles there is a special class of forms called
              'adverbial participles' (deeprichastiya), with '-av' ending for past and
              '-aya' for present, which closely correspond to Pali '-tva' and '-aya' forms.

              So please write whether '-aya' forms express past or present, so that
              I will be able to make exact translations.

              Dimitry
            • Ong Teng Kee
              Hi, Do you have a copy of Intro to pali by Warder.He put gerund (compound gerund for me and undeclineable /absolutive for many other teachers) for pubbakiriya
              Message 6 of 13 , Aug 2, 2001
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                Hi,
                Do you have a copy of Intro to pali by Warder.He put
                gerund (compound gerund for me and undeclineable
                /absolutive for many other teachers)
                for pubbakiriya like gantva-having gone to follow by
                another verb in a phrase.There are some pubbakiriya
                ended in ya ,tvana .
                And in other part he gave action noun (real gerund in
                English grammar)for word like dassana which usually in
                dative case with ya added.This kind is not absolutive
                (undecline like the above )and it is not a verb like
                above.
                I never heard of adverbial participles in english but
                i think i learned it before in german grammar text.
                In pali past and present participles can be used us
                adjective,noun,present and past perfect verb.See
                Warder 's book.


                Teng Kee


                --- "������� ��������� (Dimitry Ivakhnenko)"
                <koleso@...> wrote:
                > Hi,
                >
                > Ong Teng Kee wrote:
                > OTK> I find my english grammar book gives ex.having
                > gone
                > OTK> to(gantva) as compound gerund for this
                > pubbakiriya in
                > OTK> pali.
                > OTK> Action noun like swimming etc is call gerund
                > OTK> .buddhadatta in his grammar book give past
                > participle
                > OTK> can be used freely in the place for
                > pubbakiriya.
                >
                > Thank you, I would like to learn more about
                > pubbakiriya.
                >
                > In Russian beside participles there is a special
                > class of forms called
                > 'adverbial participles' (deeprichastiya), with '-av'
                > ending for past and
                > '-aya' for present, which closely correspond to Pali
                > '-tva' and '-aya' forms.
                >
                > So please write whether '-aya' forms express past or
                > present, so that
                > I will be able to make exact translations.
                >
                > Dimitry
                >
                >
                >
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                >




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              • ������� ��������� (Dimitry Ivakhnenko)
                Hi, OTK Do you have a copy of Intro to pali by Warder. No. OTK He put gerund (compound gerund for me and undeclineable OTK /absolutive for many other
                Message 7 of 13 , Aug 2, 2001
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                  Hi,

                  OTK> Do you have a copy of Intro to pali by Warder.

                  No.

                  OTK> He put gerund (compound gerund for me and undeclineable
                  OTK> /absolutive for many other teachers)
                  OTK> for pubbakiriya like gantva-having gone to follow by
                  OTK> another verb in a phrase.There are some pubbakiriya
                  OTK> ended in ya ,tvana .

                  Well, I looked up Sanskrit grammar and found that -tvaa and -ya
                  forms really correspond to Russian adverbial participles, however
                  both forms can denote either past or present.

                  Thus the term 'absolutive' is also fully justified.

                  OTK> And in other part he gave action noun (real gerund in
                  OTK> English grammar)for word like dassana which usually in
                  OTK> dative case with ya added.This kind is not absolutive
                  OTK> (undecline like the above )and it is not a verb like
                  OTK> above.

                  It seems that in this case he is right, dassana - seeing, dassanaaya -
                  in order to see, for the purpose of seeing. Maybe he should have called
                  this gerund.

                  Dimitry
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