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Re: Re[2]: [Pali] Gair Karunatillake Answers - Chapter 11

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  • John Kelly
    Dear Dimitry, Again thank you very much for your feedback on my answers to chapter 11. All your suggestions below are indeed improvements on my first draft,
    Message 1 of 28 , Feb 6, 2003
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      Dear Dimitry,
      Again thank you very much for your feedback on my
      answers to chapter 11.

      All your suggestions below are indeed improvements on
      my first draft, except for two that I have questions
      about:

      You suggest: "What life is called best among lives?"
      for
      Katha.m jiivi.m jiivitamaahu se.t.tha.m?
      wheras I had "What life is best among lives?"
      Where did you get the "called" from?

      Then you suggest apperception for sa~n~na. I think
      perception is a much clearer and better understood
      English word, and most English-speaking Pali scholars
      I know of translate it as perception too. Just
      wondering what nuance you're trying to convey with
      apperception.

      Thanks for all your help.
      Watch your mailbox for Chapter 12 - coming your way
      soon!

      Mettaa,
      John

      --- "������� ���������� ��������� (Dimitry A.
      Ivakhnenko)" <koleso@...> wrote:
      > Dear John,
      >
      > Section 1
      > 1.
      > I would translate 'Silentbuddho' as 'Solitary
      > Buddha';-)
      >
      > ... would always give him one ball of rice.
      >
      > ..., when there will be no possibility for me [to
      > come]...
      > (..., when I won't be able, ...)
      >
      > On a single word the dog jumped up, ...
      >
      > 2.
      > "Go out, ascetic".
      >
      > "Indeed I do not see, friend, anything in the world
      > with its Brahmas
      > and gods, among the generation of ascetics and
      > Brahmins, gods and men,
      > that could confuse my mind, rend my heart asunder,
      > and
      > pick me up by the feet and throw me to the other
      > side of the Ganges...
      >
      > "What wealth here is best for a person?
      > ...
      > What life is called best among lives?"
      >
      > 3.
      > Not in the atmosphere, nor in the middle of the
      > ocean,
      > Nor having entered a cleft in the mountains,
      > Nor in any region of the world is a spot to be found
      > Staying where, one could escape evil kamma.
      >
      > Staying where, one won't be overcome by death.
      >
      > 4.
      > Decayed is this body, a fragile nest of diseases,
      > A mass of corruption, it disintegrates; for death is
      > the end of life.
      >
      > Sa~n~na - apperception.
      >
      > Section 2
      > 1.
      > ...Well then, I will do good by body, speech, and
      > mind'?"
      >
      > ... lifted up by others, and put to bed by others?"
      >
      > ...he is endowed with unshakable faith in the
      > Dhamma...
      >
      > 5.
      > To such a good wife may be a son who governs a
      > kingdom.
      >
      >
      >
      > If you plan to convert all of the answers to
      > CN-Times, I can do most
      > of this work with appropriate macros (some letters
      > would need to be
      > replaced manually).
      >
      > Metta,
      > Dimitry
      >
      >


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    • ������� ���������� ��������� (Dimitry A.
      Dear John, JK You suggest: What life is called best among lives? JK for JK Katha.m jiivi.m jiivitamaahu se.t.tha.m? JK wheras I had What life is best
      Message 2 of 28 , Feb 7, 2003
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        Dear John,

        JK> You suggest: "What life is called best among lives?"
        JK> for
        JK> Katha.m jiivi.m jiivitamaahu se.t.tha.m?
        JK> wheras I had "What life is best among lives?"
        JK> Where did you get the "called" from?

        From 'aahu'.

        JK> Then you suggest apperception for sa~n~na. I think
        JK> perception is a much clearer and better understood
        JK> English word, and most English-speaking Pali scholars
        JK> I know of translate it as perception too.

        They created a modern Buddhist myth, a rational & poetic fantasy,
        intriguing and easy to understand. In this process they stripped away
        many psychological, philosophical and methodological intricacies,
        severing the Buddhism from Indian roots and making it a romantic
        ascetic legend, meant not for practice, but for the poetic longing.

        Buddha warned about the grasping for elegant literary works:

        They -- being undeveloped in bodily conduct... virtue... mind...
        discernment -- will not listen when discourses that are words of the
        Tathagata -- deep, profound, transcendent, connected with the Void --
        are being recited. They will not lend ear, will not set their hearts
        on knowing them, will not regard these teachings as worth grasping or
        mastering. But they will listen when discourses that are literary
        works -- the works of poets, elegant in sound, elegant in rhetoric,
        the work of outsiders, words of disciples -- are recited. They will
        lend ear and set their hearts on knowing them. They will regard these
        teachings as worth grasping and mastering.

        http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an05-077.html

        And now the PED is revered more than Atthakatha. I think Mr. Rhys
        Davids would be disgruntled to witness that his pioneering work
        became an object of blind faith.

        Piya Tan wrote:
        > (3) "Apperception" for sa~n~naa is too technical since it is a
        > specialized psychological term. I think Rhys Davids or an earlier
        > translator had used this term unsuccessfully. I'll stick to
        > "perception". It is difficult to have an exact word for such
        > technical Pali terms. Anyway, although the Pali texts are meant to
        > be read alone, there is always the need for a communication with a
        > living practitioner (preferably a renunciate) to bring spiritual
        > life into these dead words.

        So it's just a study of 'dead words', a system of deciphering the
        crypt, watering down the technical and psychological terms.

        Truly Ven. Soma Thera translated 'javana' as 'apperception', but that's a
        totally different story.

        JK> Just wondering what nuance you're trying to convey with
        JK> apperception.

        sa~n~naa is apperception, since its result is a designation (vohara)
        See AN 6.63:
        http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an06-063.html

        Translation of sa~n~na as 'perception' dilutes the meaning
        of this exact term. All the five khandhas are involved in 'perception'.
        Vi~n~nana, phassa, and even sa'nkharaa with vedana can also be seen as
        aspects of 'perception' process.

        In the the suttas the terms aniccasa~n~na and asubhasa~n~na will be
        used, and their translation as "perception" can be confusing.

        Apperception (sa~n~naa): The mental process of discrimination and
        categorization of the sense impressions, resulting in their labeling.
        For example, the process in the result of which the color of the
        visible object is designated as 'blue', 'yellow', or 'red'.

        http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn22-079.html

        For example, when a person in love sees everywhere his beloved, he
        does not 'perceive' her. Rather he 'apperceives' anybody remotely
        similar as the girl of his dreams.

        Similarly the yogin, practicing asubhasa~n~naa, does not 'perceive'
        the absence of beauty. Rather he 'apperceives' the absence of beauty,
        being 'tuned' to this theme.

        See also the article
        http://sino-sv3.sino.uni-heidelberg.de/FULLTEXT/JR-PHIL/gomez.htm

        Metta,
        Dimitry
      • John Kelly
        Thanks Dimitry, I have no time now to read the references cited below, but will ponder your response later. Clearly you ve spent some time thinking about this
        Message 3 of 28 , Feb 7, 2003
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          Thanks Dimitry,
          I have no time now to read the references cited below,
          but will ponder your response later.
          Clearly you've spent some time thinking about this
          word!

          Warm wishes,
          John
          --- "������� ���������� ��������� (Dimitry A.
          Ivakhnenko)" <koleso@...> wrote:
          > Dear John,
          >
          > JK> You suggest: "What life is called best among
          > lives?"
          > JK> for
          > JK> Katha.m jiivi.m jiivitamaahu se.t.tha.m?
          > JK> wheras I had "What life is best among lives?"
          > JK> Where did you get the "called" from?
          >
          > From 'aahu'.
          >
          > JK> Then you suggest apperception for sa~n~na. I
          > think
          > JK> perception is a much clearer and better
          > understood
          > JK> English word, and most English-speaking Pali
          > scholars
          > JK> I know of translate it as perception too.
          >
          > They created a modern Buddhist myth, a rational &
          > poetic fantasy,
          > intriguing and easy to understand. In this process
          > they stripped away
          > many psychological, philosophical and methodological
          > intricacies,
          > severing the Buddhism from Indian roots and making
          > it a romantic
          > ascetic legend, meant not for practice, but for the
          > poetic longing.
          >
          > Buddha warned about the grasping for elegant
          > literary works:
          >
          > They -- being undeveloped in bodily conduct...
          > virtue... mind...
          > discernment -- will not listen when discourses that
          > are words of the
          > Tathagata -- deep, profound, transcendent, connected
          > with the Void --
          > are being recited. They will not lend ear, will not
          > set their hearts
          > on knowing them, will not regard these teachings as
          > worth grasping or
          > mastering. But they will listen when discourses that
          > are literary
          > works -- the works of poets, elegant in sound,
          > elegant in rhetoric,
          > the work of outsiders, words of disciples -- are
          > recited. They will
          > lend ear and set their hearts on knowing them. They
          > will regard these
          > teachings as worth grasping and mastering.
          >
          >
          http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an05-077.html
          >
          > And now the PED is revered more than Atthakatha. I
          > think Mr. Rhys
          > Davids would be disgruntled to witness that his
          > pioneering work
          > became an object of blind faith.
          >
          > Piya Tan wrote:
          > > (3) "Apperception" for sa~n~naa is too technical
          > since it is a
          > > specialized psychological term. I think Rhys
          > Davids or an earlier
          > > translator had used this term unsuccessfully. I'll
          > stick to
          > > "perception". It is difficult to have an exact
          > word for such
          > > technical Pali terms. Anyway, although the Pali
          > texts are meant to
          > > be read alone, there is always the need for a
          > communication with a
          > > living practitioner (preferably a renunciate) to
          > bring spiritual
          > > life into these dead words.
          >
          > So it's just a study of 'dead words', a system of
          > deciphering the
          > crypt, watering down the technical and psychological
          > terms.
          >
          > Truly Ven. Soma Thera translated 'javana' as
          > 'apperception', but that's a
          > totally different story.
          >
          > JK> Just wondering what nuance you're trying to
          > convey with
          > JK> apperception.
          >
          > sa~n~naa is apperception, since its result is a
          > designation (vohara)
          > See AN 6.63:
          >
          http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an06-063.html
          >
          > Translation of sa~n~na as 'perception' dilutes the
          > meaning
          > of this exact term. All the five khandhas are
          > involved in 'perception'.
          > Vi~n~nana, phassa, and even sa'nkharaa with vedana
          > can also be seen as
          > aspects of 'perception' process.
          >
          > In the the suttas the terms aniccasa~n~na and
          > asubhasa~n~na will be
          > used, and their translation as "perception" can be
          > confusing.
          >
          > Apperception (sa~n~naa): The mental process of
          > discrimination and
          > categorization of the sense impressions, resulting
          > in their labeling.
          > For example, the process in the result of which the
          > color of the
          > visible object is designated as 'blue', 'yellow', or
          > 'red'.
          >
          >
          http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn22-079.html
          >
          > For example, when a person in love sees everywhere
          > his beloved, he
          > does not 'perceive' her. Rather he 'apperceives'
          > anybody remotely
          > similar as the girl of his dreams.
          >
          > Similarly the yogin, practicing asubhasa~n~naa, does
          > not 'perceive'
          > the absence of beauty. Rather he 'apperceives' the
          > absence of beauty,
          > being 'tuned' to this theme.
          >
          > See also the article
          >
          http://sino-sv3.sino.uni-heidelberg.de/FULLTEXT/JR-PHIL/gomez.htm
          >
          > Metta,
          > Dimitry
          >
          >
          >


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        • Frank Kuan
          (having no psychology background) I find the distinction between perception and aperception confusing. Both seem to involve discriminating using memory. I ve
          Message 4 of 28 , Feb 7, 2003
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            (having no psychology background) I find the
            distinction between perception and aperception
            confusing. Both seem to involve discriminating using
            memory.

            I've also never been clear on what the aggregate of
            consciousness is, and how it differs from the
            aggregate of perception (sanna).

            "And why do you call it 'perception'? Because it
            perceives, thus it is called 'perception.' What does
            it perceive? It perceives blue, it perceives yellow,
            it perceives red, it perceives white. Because it
            perceives, it is called perception.

            "And why do you call it 'consciousness'? Because it
            cognizes, thus it is called consciousness. What does
            it cognize? It cognizes what is sour, bitter, pungent,
            sweet, alkaline, non-alkaline, salty, & unsalty.
            Because it cognizes, it is called consciousness.
            --------------------

            Seems to me both perception and consciousness
            aggregates involve discrimination between present
            moment of reality and a memory to compare to.

            The examples from the sutta really don't shed any
            light on how perception and consciousness differ.


            -fk



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          • rjkjp1 <rjkjp1@yahoo.com>
            ... _______________________ Dear Frank, The ancient commentaries give many helpful points about the differences. The aggregate of consciousness (vinnana
            Message 5 of 28 , Feb 7, 2003
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              --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Frank Kuan <fcckuan@y...> wrote:

              >
              > I've also never been clear on what the aggregate of
              > consciousness is, and how it differs from the
              > aggregate of perception (sanna).

              _______________________

              Dear Frank,
              The ancient commentaries give many helpful points about the
              differences. The aggregate of consciousness (vinnana khandha, citta)
              is the leader in knowing and experiencing. I give a quote from one
              text:
              The visuddhimagga Xiv3 "for though the state of
              knowing (janana-bhava) is equally present in perception(sanna),
              nevertheless perception is the mere perceiving of an object as , say,
              blue or yeelow; it cannot bring about the penetration of its
              characteristic as impermanent, painful and not-self
              (xiv3 ) "consciousness knows the objects as blue or yellow, and it
              brings about penetration of its characteristics, but it cannot bring
              about, by endeavouring, the manisfestation of the path.
              Understanding (panna) knows the object in the way stated, and it
              brings about by endeavouring, the manifestation of the path."

              Very hard to really understand directly because these realities all
              arise together. No matter how much effort is applied if it is done
              with sakkya-ditthi it cannot be known: In the quote from the
              Visuddhimagga we see that
              citta(without panna) can know the characteristic of dhammas, it can
              perceive subtle feelings colours, sounds, hardness, heat - but if
              panna(understanding, wisdom) is not present one may be still
              developing the wrong path.

              Vis. Xiv6 " [the] difference is consequently subtle and hard to see.
              Hence the venerable nagasena said: "A difficult thing O king has been
              done by the Blessed one….the defining of the immaterial states of
              consciousness and its concomitants, which occur with a single object,
              and which he declared thus: this is contact, this is feeling , this
              is perception, this is volition, this is consciousness "(milinda
              panha 87)
              RobertK




              >
              > "And why do you call it 'perception'? Because it
              > perceives, thus it is called 'perception.' What does
              > it perceive? It perceives blue, it perceives yellow,
              > it perceives red, it perceives white. Because it
              > perceives, it is called perception.
              >
              > "And why do you call it 'consciousness'? Because it
              > cognizes, thus it is called consciousness. What does
              > it cognize? It cognizes what is sour, bitter, pungent,
              > sweet, alkaline, non-alkaline, salty, & unsalty.
              > Because it cognizes, it is called consciousness.
              > --------------------
              >
              > Seems to me both perception and consciousness
              > aggregates involve discrimination between present
              > moment of reality and a memory to compare to.
              >
              > The examples from the sutta really don't shed any
              > light on how perception and consciousness differ.
              >
              >
              > -fk
              >
              >
              >
              > __________________________________________________
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              > Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
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            • ������� ���������� ��������� (Dimitry A.
              Hi Frank, FK (having no psychology background) I find the FK distinction between perception and aperception FK confusing. Both seem to involve
              Message 6 of 28 , Feb 8, 2003
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                Hi Frank,

                FK> (having no psychology background) I find the
                FK> distinction between perception and aperception
                FK> confusing. Both seem to involve discriminating using
                FK> memory.

                In my opinion perception is more primary, in Buddhist terms it refers
                to the arising of impression (phassa - contact) on the basis of sense
                object, sense organ and consciousness, and consequent categorization,
                emotional reaction and decision. It's a rather general term which in
                some usages includes apperception.

                Apperception (ad + perceptio, to perception), refers to the process
                when impression is integrated in life experience, associated with other
                impressions, categorized, classified, given a significance and labeled.

                Though these terms are somewhat fuzzy and similar, there's an evident
                difference.

                FK> I've also never been clear on what the aggregate of
                FK> consciousness is, and how it differs from the
                FK> aggregate of perception (sanna).

                There's a good article on vi~n~naa.na:
                http://sino-sv3.sino.uni-heidelberg.de/FULLTEXT/JR-PHIL/donald.htm

                In most cases it means 'cognitive or perceptive consciousness'.
                That's the third component needed for impression to arise. When
                particular sense consciousness is absent, as in case of sleep,
                unconsciousness, deep jhana or concentration on another sense, the
                impression doesn't come to be.

                FK> The examples from the sutta really don't shed any
                FK> light on how perception and consciousness differ.

                Well, there's another sutta with clearer difference:
                http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn22-057.html

                Dimitry
              • Piya Tan
                Dear Dimitry, Thanks for pointing our Swearer s article to me. It s very useful. It s good to see that your name in Cyrillic comes out properly in Outlook
                Message 7 of 28 , Feb 8, 2003
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                  Dear Dimitry,

                  Thanks for pointing our Swearer's article to me. It's very useful.

                  It's good to see that your name in Cyrillic comes out properly in Outlook
                  Express (I've just changed to OE).

                  Sukhi.

                  P.

                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: "Дмитрий Алексеевич Ивахненко (Dimitry A. Ivakhnenko)"
                  <koleso@...>
                  To: "Frank Kuan" <Pali@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Saturday, February 08, 2003 7:28 PM
                  Subject: Re: [Pali] sanna, perception, aperception, consciousness cognizing


                  > Hi Frank,
                  >
                  > FK> (having no psychology background) I find the
                  > FK> distinction between perception and aperception
                  > FK> confusing. Both seem to involve discriminating using
                  > FK> memory.
                  >
                  > In my opinion perception is more primary, in Buddhist terms it refers
                  > to the arising of impression (phassa - contact) on the basis of sense
                  > object, sense organ and consciousness, and consequent categorization,
                  > emotional reaction and decision. It's a rather general term which in
                  > some usages includes apperception.
                  >
                  > Apperception (ad + perceptio, to perception), refers to the process
                  > when impression is integrated in life experience, associated with other
                  > impressions, categorized, classified, given a significance and labeled.
                  >
                  > Though these terms are somewhat fuzzy and similar, there's an evident
                  > difference.
                  >
                  > FK> I've also never been clear on what the aggregate of
                  > FK> consciousness is, and how it differs from the
                  > FK> aggregate of perception (sanna).
                  >
                  > There's a good article on vi~n~naa.na:
                  > http://sino-sv3.sino.uni-heidelberg.de/FULLTEXT/JR-PHIL/donald.htm
                  >
                  > In most cases it means 'cognitive or perceptive consciousness'.
                  > That's the third component needed for impression to arise. When
                  > particular sense consciousness is absent, as in case of sleep,
                  > unconsciousness, deep jhana or concentration on another sense, the
                  > impression doesn't come to be.
                  >
                  > FK> The examples from the sutta really don't shed any
                  > FK> light on how perception and consciousness differ.
                  >
                  > Well, there's another sutta with clearer difference:
                  > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn22-057.html
                  >
                  > Dimitry
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
                  > Yahoo! Groups members can set their delivery options to daily digest or
                  web only.
                  > [Homepage] http://www.tipitaka.net
                  > [Send Message] pali@yahoogroups.com
                  > [Mailing List] http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pali
                  > [Discussion] http://tipitaka.suddenlaunch.com
                  >
                  > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                  >
                  >
                  >
                • Piya Tan
                  Dear Dimitry, Apperception may be an accurate translation for sa~n~naa, would it be awkward to say: the realm of neither-apperception-nor-non-apperception ?
                  Message 8 of 28 , Feb 8, 2003
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                    Dear Dimitry,

                    "Apperception" may be an accurate translation for sa~n~naa, would it be
                    awkward to say:

                    "the realm of neither-apperception-nor-non-apperception"?

                    Sukhi.

                    P.

                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: "Дмитрий Алексеевич Ивахненко (Dimitry A. Ivakhnenko)"
                    <koleso@...>
                    To: "Frank Kuan" <Pali@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Saturday, February 08, 2003 7:28 PM
                    Subject: Re: [Pali] sanna, perception, aperception, consciousness cognizing


                    > Hi Frank,
                    >
                    > FK> (having no psychology background) I find the
                    > FK> distinction between perception and aperception
                    > FK> confusing. Both seem to involve discriminating using
                    > FK> memory.
                    >
                    > In my opinion perception is more primary, in Buddhist terms it refers
                    > to the arising of impression (phassa - contact) on the basis of sense
                    > object, sense organ and consciousness, and consequent categorization,
                    > emotional reaction and decision. It's a rather general term which in
                    > some usages includes apperception.
                    >
                    > Apperception (ad + perceptio, to perception), refers to the process
                    > when impression is integrated in life experience, associated with other
                    > impressions, categorized, classified, given a significance and labeled.
                    >
                    > Though these terms are somewhat fuzzy and similar, there's an evident
                    > difference.
                    >
                    > FK> I've also never been clear on what the aggregate of
                    > FK> consciousness is, and how it differs from the
                    > FK> aggregate of perception (sanna).
                    >
                    > There's a good article on vi~n~naa.na:
                    > http://sino-sv3.sino.uni-heidelberg.de/FULLTEXT/JR-PHIL/donald.htm
                    >
                    > In most cases it means 'cognitive or perceptive consciousness'.
                    > That's the third component needed for impression to arise. When
                    > particular sense consciousness is absent, as in case of sleep,
                    > unconsciousness, deep jhana or concentration on another sense, the
                    > impression doesn't come to be.
                    >
                    > FK> The examples from the sutta really don't shed any
                    > FK> light on how perception and consciousness differ.
                    >
                    > Well, there's another sutta with clearer difference:
                    > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn22-057.html
                    >
                    > Dimitry
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
                    > Yahoo! Groups members can set their delivery options to daily digest or
                    web only.
                    > [Homepage] http://www.tipitaka.net
                    > [Send Message] pali@yahoogroups.com
                    > [Mailing List] http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pali
                    > [Discussion] http://tipitaka.suddenlaunch.com
                    >
                    > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                    >
                    >
                    >
                  • Frank Kuan
                    Rob, thanks for the vism references. Dmitry, the donald article is excellent. I m going to re-read these references, think about it some more, and then share
                    Message 9 of 28 , Feb 8, 2003
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                      Rob, thanks for the vism references.
                      Dmitry, the donald article is excellent. I'm going to
                      re-read these references, think about it some more,
                      and then share my thoughts.

                      -fk



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                    • ������� ���������� ��������� (Dimitry A.
                      Dear Piya, PT It s good to see that your name in Cyrillic comes out properly in Outlook PT Express (I ve just changed to OE). Yes, the world is getting
                      Message 10 of 28 , Feb 8, 2003
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                        Dear Piya,

                        PT> It's good to see that your name in Cyrillic comes out properly in Outlook
                        PT> Express (I've just changed to OE).

                        Yes, the world is getting smaller. Since I installed Unicode font I
                        marvel at lots of amazing hieroglyphs in Chinese and Japanese webpages.
                        Taisho Tipitaka at http://www.cbeta.org thrills with lots of totally
                        mysterious manuscripts.

                        Speaking of the software changes, maybe you will find handy the
                        Singapore-made MyIE browser http://myie2.yeah.net . It is free,
                        convenient, compact, deals away with unwanted advertisements, and has
                        lots of in-built options and services, including Chinese ones.

                        Metta,
                        Dimitry
                      • ������� ���������� ��������� (Dimitry A.
                        Dear Piya, PT Apperception may be an accurate translation for sa~n~naa, would it be PT awkward to say: PT the realm of
                        Message 11 of 28 , Feb 8, 2003
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                          Dear Piya,

                          PT> "Apperception" may be an accurate translation for sa~n~naa, would it be
                          PT> awkward to say:

                          PT> "the realm of neither-apperception-nor-non-apperception"?

                          Gomez uses similar formulas in translation of Kalahavivada sutta:

                          When he has not an apperception of apperceptions,
                          when he had not an apperception of non-apperception,
                          when he does not not apperceive, when he does not
                          have apperceptions without an object, for him who has
                          attained to this, form ceases, for apperception is
                          the cause of dispersion and conception.

                          http://sino-sv3.sino.uni-heidelberg.de/FULLTEXT/JR-PHIL/gomez.htm
                          http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/suttanipata/snp4-11.html

                          At least such formulation is understandable, for trying to understand
                          what traditional 'neither-perception-nor-non-perception' means twisted
                          my brain and blew my socks off ;)

                          Without apperception:

                          "In reference to the seen, there will be only the seen. In reference to
                          the heard, only the heard. In reference to the sensed, only the
                          sensed. In reference to the cognized, only the cognized."

                          http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/udana/ud1-10.html

                          In psychological terms this would roughly correspond to absence of
                          outcome expectations (ta.nhaa), and cognitive conceptions and
                          evaluations (sa~n~naa) (see excerpt below).

                          The general overview of dependent co-arising can be seen at:

                          http://users.i.com.ua/~sangha/dharma/lib/paticca.pdf

                          Sukhi,
                          Dimitry

                          "According to Davey (1992), the new learning-behavioral theories
                          suggest a conditioning-cognitive sequence is like this:

                          1 Conditioned Stimulus (CS)
                          |
                          2 Outcome Expectations
                          |
                          3 Cognitive conception of Unconditioned Stimulus
                          |
                          4 Evaluation of the Unconditioned Stimulus
                          |
                          5 Conditioned Response (CR)

                          Steps 2 and 4 are places where cognitive factors can affect the
                          conditioned response (CR). How it can be done? Consider this example,
                          if your lights dim slightly before a very loud noise, what you think
                          all this means makes a great difference in how you respond. If you
                          think the dimming lights and noise means an earthquake is occuring or
                          that your house is falling on you or the electrical system may set the
                          house on fire, you will probably have a strong panic reaction. If,
                          with a little experience, you learn that your huge new sound system
                          dims the lights right before the favorite music blasts forth, you will
                          soon be having a pleasant reaction to the dimming lights. If someone
                          has told you to expect the lights to dim, your startle or fear
                          response would be slight even the first time. If you believe the
                          dimming of lights is perfectly normal and poses no danger, you have a
                          different reaction tha if you believe that you have overloaded the
                          circuit and caused a fire hazard. Beyond all this cognitive influence
                          on a classically conditioned response, recent research has found that
                          experience with the UCS (in this case an unexpected loud sound blast)
                          without the dimming lights (during the daytime) can affect your
                          conditioned reaction too. Being told by the expert that loud sounds
                          damage your hearing permanently will also affect your conditioned
                          reaction. Likewise, observing your reactions to the CS or the UCS as
                          well as using various coping strategies can alter your conditioned
                          response (CR) to the conditioned stimulus (CS). So it is far from a
                          simple mechanical reaction. The huge brain wasn't added to your spinal
                          cord for nothing."

                          - from "Psychological Self-Help" by Clay Tucker-Ladd
                        • ������� ���������� ��������� (Dimitry A.
                          P.S. The excerpt from the book by Clayton Tucker-Ladd explaining the conditioning-cognitive sequence can be found at:
                          Message 12 of 28 , Feb 8, 2003
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                            P.S. The excerpt from the book by Clayton Tucker-Ladd explaining the
                            conditioning-cognitive sequence can be found at:

                            http://mentalhelp.net/psyhelp/chap5/chap5e.htm#b
                          • Khael Jasso
                            Dear Piya and pali friends Your’s is truly breaking through posture. If sa~n~na is understood as apperception, so that
                            Message 13 of 28 , Feb 8, 2003
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                              Dear Piya and pali friends


                              Your’s is truly breaking through posture.
                              If sa~n~na is understood as apperception, so that
                              neither-apperception-nor-non-apperception is the last
                              of the arupa jhana attainments (exempting the theme
                              less), and the last abode for becoming rather than
                              neither-perception-nor-non-perception, it would mean
                              that while the disturbances from consciousness (as the
                              act that cognizes the already formed apperception)
                              wouldn’t be present, there would be only this
                              disturbance no appercepting neither not no
                              appercepting, (as the act of codifying, and
                              configuring a mental note of that very perception).

                              Taking the gradual steps from the cula-su~n~nata, the
                              sphere of infinite space is empty of disturbation of
                              the form, while the disturbation of infinite space,
                              and therefore the perception, apperception and
                              (infinite) consciousness of infinite space are
                              present.
                              The sphere of infinite consciousness is the result of
                              the purgation of the perception ‘infinite space’,
                              leaving only the infinite consciousness (that earlier
                              was cognizing infinite space and now is conscious of
                              no space whatsoever, yet remains), the perception of
                              infinite consciousness, and the apperception (or
                              labeling) on base of that very perception noting
                              ‘infinite consciousness’ and the cognizing result
                              ‘Infinite consciousness’;
                              The sphere of nothing purges consciousness(of the
                              earlier spheres) leaving no sign to be perceived nor
                              apperceived nor cognized, nevertheless this process is
                              itself perceived, apperceived, and cognized ‘there is
                              nothing’, in and of itself, being this a subtler than
                              the former.
                              The sphere of neither-‘ap’perception nor no-
                              ‘ap’perception, purges the labeling created by either
                              apperception or non apperception, leaving nothing to
                              be cognized, and no disturbation on base of the mind
                              forming labels and subsequent processes, never the
                              less perception remains, that which is connected to
                              the six internal and external media sense bases.
                              The theme less concentration, purging the
                              concentration based on not apperception neither not
                              non apperception, has only the disturbation of the
                              six media sense bases, leaving as the only sublimation
                              left the cessation of perception and feeling.(I assume
                              that the relation of this attainment to the previous
                              sphere is analog with that of the forth and the fifth
                              form jhana, just an alternate development)
                              Keeping the previous arguments that would mean
                              cessation of apperception and feeling, which is the
                              very attainment of release, Nibbana. Where
                              apperception is ended for good and fabrications, such
                              as mind labels( nama-rupa) are root less, and those
                              remaining are dependent to the remaining span of life
                              of the Arahat.

                              The use of the terms consciousness perception and
                              apperception in the previous arguments (arguments
                              which I confess are improvised, and I beg you to
                              consider them as provisional, more like an exploration
                              rather than a deep and scholar conclusion) are more
                              occident inclined, trying to render the meaning in a
                              modern psychological format :
                              Perception as the preliminary phase of receiving an
                              input , i.e. physical, (or mental), sensation of a
                              knife cutting one’s finger, but being not aware of the
                              fact, of the pain or the whole mental image. Just as
                              having received mail, but not being aware of its
                              contents or message, therefore having no conclusion
                              about them or reaction whatsoever.
                              Apperception, the process of codifying a sensorial
                              input, in an understandable format for the
                              consciousness to cognize; i.e. a common (lot commoner
                              in this forum ;) ) experience is translating a line:
                              you have the text translated word by word, with
                              adequate syntax and grammar, but the meaning is (in a
                              very short instant) not cognized yet.
                              Consciousness as the phase of being conscient or
                              cognizing, i.e. ‘This is pain’ , or the meaning of a
                              line, or a fact of life et cetera.

                              But being such terms more adequate to occidental
                              terms, not the Buddha vaccana, I would like to
                              propone a position of them in the dependent co arising
                              ‘map’

                              From ignorance as a requisite condition come
                              fabrications.
                              From fabrications as a requisite condition comes
                              consciousness.
                              From consciousness as a requisite condition comes
                              name-&-form.
                              From name-&-form as a requisite condition come the six
                              sense media.
                              From the six sense media as a requisite condition
                              comes contact.
                              From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling.
                              From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving.
                              From craving as a requisite condition comes
                              clinging/sustenance.
                              From clinging/sustenance as a requisite condition
                              comes becoming.
                              From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth.
                              From birth as a requisite condition, then aging &
                              death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair
                              come into play. Such is the origination of this entire
                              mass of stress & suffering.

                              Perception (as used lines above) would be interlaced
                              with contact and the six sense media salayatana;
                              Apperception as fabrication;
                              Consciousness as consciousness and feelingin the
                              dependent coarising .

                              This may help identifying the difference between
                              perception and consciousness:

                              "And why do you call it 'perception'? Because it
                              perceives, thus it is called 'perception.' What does
                              it perceive? It perceives blue, it perceives yellow,
                              it perceives red, it perceives white. Because it
                              perceives, it is called perception.

                              The input ‘blue’, ‘red’, ‘yellow’ is percived, that
                              is perception

                              "And why do you call it 'consciousness'? Because it
                              cognizes, thus it is called consciousness. What does
                              it cognize? It cognizes what is sour, bitter, pungent,
                              sweet, alkaline, non-alkaline, salty, & unsalty.
                              Because it cognizes, it is called consciousness.

                              The input of the taste, i.e. ‘sweet’, having been
                              perceived and codified, is now cognized as, for this
                              example, sweet, this implies that the information has
                              being received from the sense bases media, codified,
                              in terms of name and form, and understood (in a
                              worldly sense)
                              And from that contact, feeling arises, from the
                              contact with the perception ‘sweet’, ‘pleasure’ as a
                              feeling might arise; then on, craving will arise for
                              the pleasure caused by the consciousness caused by the
                              contact with the perception ‘sweet’, that will
                              concrete the connection ‘sweet’ – ‘pleasure’ as a
                              common clinging, that would eventually condition a
                              ‘becoming’ as the wish to become one that feels the
                              pleasure derived from the perception ‘sweet’; then,
                              according to kamma, a birth will come in which the
                              perception ‘sweet’ may be or not be achieved, in
                              either case resulting in suffering, in the first
                              probability, where ‘sweet’ is perceived, that
                              perception and its pleasure will not be constant,
                              neither satisfactory, in the second case the suffering
                              resulting from privation of the desired object is
                              obvious.
                              And that would be just a small part of the suffering
                              caused in this way from relying on the aggregates, for
                              this is a simplified and narrow analysis, amplified it
                              would have many feedback loops resulting in the
                              extremely complex matrix of experience itself.



                              Any comment, critic and suggestion is not only
                              welcomed, but encouraged (and appreciated). Since this
                              is only some kind of a draft in the search of right
                              view, is not to be taken in complete seriousness.


                              Metta

                              Khael.


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                            • Frank Kuan
                              Hi Khael, a) In some sutta passages, it says somethign to the effect of : dependent on consciousness, name and form arise. and then: dependent on name and
                              Message 14 of 28 , Feb 9, 2003
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                                Hi Khael,
                                a) In some sutta passages, it says somethign to the
                                effect of :
                                "dependent on consciousness, name and form arise."
                                and then:
                                "dependent on name and form, consciousness arises"

                                b) The most frequent occurence I see of consciousness
                                seems to be the 6 types of consciousness that arise
                                when sense organ meets sense object, the meeting of
                                the 3 being "contact"

                                c) another sutta passage says in the dependent
                                origination formula, "with contact as condition,
                                perception (sanna?) , thinking, mental
                                proliferation..."


                                There are many unresolved and unclear issues for me:
                                1) (this is why I'm learning bits of pali to try to
                                resolve questions like this) is vinnana, citta, mano
                                the same, different, sometimes, always?
                                2) is the consciousness in the 12 links of dependent
                                origination the same as the consciousness that arises
                                at the 6 sense doors when sensory organ meets sensory
                                object?
                                3) is consciousness a more "low level" sensory input
                                process or is perception more "low level" (meaning a
                                more raw data input free of conceptualizastion,
                                distortion). for example, a computer program is
                                written in a "high level" language similar to english,
                                but the internal representation to the machine is a
                                stream of "low level" binary electrical "on" and "off"
                                signals.

                                Khael is suggesting that perception/sanna is lower
                                level than consciousness, but sutta reference (b)
                                suggests to me that consciousness is more low level,
                                and perception/sanna adds some comparison to memory
                                and subjectivity. But the other sutta passage where
                                both consciousness and perception seem to be going
                                through a process of discrimination (comparison with
                                memory), and the visuddhimagga commentary also to me
                                leaves the question unresolved.

                                Still digging, still no answers, still confused... :-)
                                Will research and comment later...

                                -fk




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                              • Äìèòðèé Àëåêñååâè÷ Èâ
                                Dear Khael and Frank, KJ The sphere of neither-‘ap’perception nor no- KJ ‘ap’perception, purges the labeling created by either KJ apperception or
                                Message 15 of 28 , Feb 9, 2003
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                                  Dear Khael and Frank,

                                  KJ> The sphere of neither-‘ap’perception nor no-
                                  KJ> ‘ap’perception, purges the labeling created by either
                                  KJ> apperception or non apperception, leaving nothing to
                                  KJ> be cognized, and no disturbation on base of the mind
                                  KJ> forming labels and subsequent processes, never the
                                  KJ> less perception remains, that which is connected to
                                  KJ> the six internal and external media sense bases.

                                  Thank you, Khael, for the clear and logical explanation of
                                  Cula-Su~n~nata sutta. The final test is in the practice :)

                                  KJ> Perception (as used lines above) would be interlaced
                                  KJ> with contact and the six sense media salayatana;
                                  KJ> Apperception as fabrication;
                                  KJ> Consciousness as consciousness and feelingin the
                                  KJ> dependent coarising .

                                  I would propose the map:
                                  http://users.i.com.ua/~sangha/dharma/lib/paticca.pdf
                                  (in Russian http://users.i.com.ua/~sangha/dharma/lib/paticca.htm )

                                  There perception is around 'phassa',
                                  Apperception is 'sa~n~naa',
                                  Fabrications include bodily ones (overlapping with salayatana, except
                                  'mano'), mental ones (the same as 'nama'), and verbal ones (vittakka and
                                  vicara).
                                  Determinations are 'sa'nkhaara' as part of the 'naama'.
                                  Consciousness is 'vi~n~naa.na'.
                                  Feelings are 'vedanaa'.

                                  FK> a) In some sutta passages, it says somethign to the
                                  FK> effect of :
                                  FK> "dependent on consciousness, name and form arise."
                                  FK> and then:
                                  FK> "dependent on name and form, consciousness arises"

                                  Yes, 'vi~n~naa.na' gives rise to 'phassa', and thus to 'naama', which
                                  is intermingled with 'ruupa', as 'mano' and sense organs in 'salaayatanaa'.

                                  Dependent on the internal and external 'salaayatanaa' (intermingled
                                  'naama' and 'ruupa'), there arises 'vi~n~naa.na'.

                                  FK> c) another sutta passage says in the dependent
                                  FK> origination formula, "with contact as condition,
                                  FK> perception (sanna?) , thinking, mental
                                  FK> proliferation..."

                                  That's Digha Nikaya 15 (see the branch in the rightmost part of the
                                  diagram).

                                  FK> 1) (this is why I'm learning bits of pali to try to
                                  FK> resolve questions like this) is vinnana, citta, mano
                                  FK> the same, different, sometimes, always?

                                  They are different. Yet they are sometimes explained one by another,
                                  and sometimes used interchangeably in 'non-technical', 'popular
                                  explanation' contexts.

                                  FK> 2) is the consciousness in the 12 links of dependent
                                  FK> origination the same as the consciousness that arises
                                  FK> at the 6 sense doors when sensory organ meets sensory
                                  FK> object?

                                  Yes. It is clearly seen on the sketch diagram mentioned above.

                                  FK> Khael is suggesting that perception/sanna is lower
                                  FK> level than consciousness, but sutta reference (b)
                                  FK> suggests to me that consciousness is more low level,
                                  FK> and perception/sanna adds some comparison to memory
                                  FK> and subjectivity.

                                  I agree that 'vi~n~naa.na' is lower level and does not label.
                                  It is 'sa~n~naa' which labels 'this is yellow, this is blue, this is
                                  red', giving rise to 'vohaara' (designation).

                                  KJ> The input of the taste, i.e. ‘sweet’, having been
                                  KJ> perceived and codified, is now cognized as, for this
                                  KJ> example, sweet, this implies that the information has
                                  KJ> being received from the sense bases media, codified,
                                  KJ> in terms of name and form, and understood (in a
                                  KJ> worldly sense)

                                  Codification und understanding belong rather to the 'sa~n~naa' with
                                  consequent 'vitakka'.

                                  FK> But the other sutta passage where
                                  FK> both consciousness and perception seem to be going
                                  FK> through a process of discrimination (comparison with
                                  FK> memory),

                                  Well, the sutta does not mention discrimination or comparison with
                                  memory. It uses labels 'sour', 'sweet', because it's impossible
                                  otherwise to describe something without labels.

                                  Metta, Dimitry
                                • nina van gorkom
                                  Dear all, Different people have given us useful observations on sa~n~naa. As Rob K wrote: it is subtle and hard to see. Citta is the leader in cognizing an
                                  Message 16 of 28 , Feb 9, 2003
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                                    Dear all,
                                    Different people have given us useful observations on sa~n~naa. As Rob K
                                    wrote: it is subtle and hard to see. Citta is the leader in cognizing an
                                    object and sannaa and the other conascent mental factors (phassa, vedanaa,
                                    etc.) assist the citta. We are lost without sa~n~naa. It marks and remembers
                                    the object that is cognized by citta. Each moment. Without it we would not
                                    know what a table is, we could not read one word, let alone a sentence and
                                    draw conclusion (more info: Ven. Nyanaponika, Abh. Studies). Sa~n~naa
                                    connects past, present and future.
                                    It is difficult to translate it, because in different contexts diverse
                                    aspects are stressed. Attaasa~n~naa: wrong perception of self. Combined with
                                    wrong view sa~n~naa is a strong condition for clinging to self, my person.
                                    It is one of the four perversions, vipallaasaa (A IV, 49, Patisambidha
                                    Magga, Treatise VIII, and Co.). It is a separate khandha, just as vedanaa,
                                    whereas all the other mental factors are sa'nkhaarakkhanda( formations,
                                    activities, fabrications). We cling so much to sa~n~naa. What we feel we
                                    remember, we reason about it, we are obsessed by it (M. I, no 18, Discourse
                                    of the Honeyball). We do not forget something that caused us strong
                                    feelings.
                                    Rahula had attaasa~n~naa. He had to learn and develop vipassanaa pa~n~naa as
                                    the commentary stated. Thus he could develop aniccaa sa~n~naa (See A VII,
                                    46) and anattaa san~n~aa.

                                    op 07-02-2003 22:11 schreef rjkjp1 <rjkjp1@...> op rjkjp1@...:

                                    > --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Frank Kuan <fcckuan@y...> wrote:

                                    > The ancient commentaries give many helpful points about the
                                    > differences. The aggregate of consciousness (vinnana khandha, citta)
                                    > is the leader in knowing and experiencing. (snipped)
                                    > Very hard to really understand directly because these realities all
                                    > arise together. No matter how much effort is applied if it is done
                                    > with sakkya-ditthi it cannot be known: In the quote from the
                                    > Visuddhimagga we see that
                                    > citta(without panna) can know the characteristic of dhammas, it can
                                    > perceive subtle feelings colours, sounds, hardness, heat - but if
                                    > panna(understanding, wisdom) is not present one may be still
                                    > developing the wrong path.
                                    >
                                    > Vis. Xiv6 " [the] difference is consequently subtle and hard to see.
                                    > Hence the venerable nagasena said: "A difficult thing O king has been
                                    > done by the Blessed one….the defining of the immaterial states of
                                    > consciousness and its concomitants, which occur with a single object,
                                    > and which he declared thus: this is contact, this is feeling , this
                                    > is perception, this is volition, this is consciousness "(milinda
                                    > panha 87)
                                  • Frank Kuan
                                    I re-discovered a great passage in the M today: M43 mahavedalla (greater series of q & a) p. 389 b.bodhi version: Feeling, perception, and consciousness,
                                    Message 17 of 28 , Mar 21, 2003
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                                      I re-discovered a great passage in the M today:

                                      M43 mahavedalla (greater series of q & a)

                                      p. 389 b.bodhi version:

                                      "Feeling, perception, and consciousness, friend -
                                      these states are conjoined, not disjoined, and it is
                                      impossible to separate each of these states from the
                                      others in order to describe the difference between
                                      then. For what one feels, that one perceives; and what
                                      one perceives, that one cognizes. That is why these
                                      states are conjoined, not disjoined, and it is
                                      impossible to separate each of these states from the
                                      others in order to describe the difference between
                                      them."

                                      also, on p. 388, on the section of consciousness:
                                      "what does it cognize? It cognizes 'this is pleasant';
                                      it cognizes: 'this is painful'; it cognizes: 'this is
                                      neither painful nor pleasant'

                                      commnent:
                                      Seems like the sutta is implying the primary function
                                      of vinnana is to differentiate the 3 types of feeling,
                                      rather than just a bare awareness of the 6 types of
                                      external media coming into contact with the 6 internal
                                      sense organs.




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                                    • Lars Siebold
                                      ... There is also another definition in the Samyutta Nikaya (S XXII.79): And why do you call it consciousness ? Because it cognizes, thus it is called
                                      Message 18 of 28 , Mar 22, 2003
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                                        > also, on p. 388, on the section of consciousness:
                                        > "what does it cognize? It cognizes 'this is pleasant';
                                        > it cognizes: 'this is painful'; it cognizes: 'this is
                                        > neither painful nor pleasant'
                                        >

                                        There is also another definition in the Samyutta Nikaya (S XXII.79):
                                        "And why do you call it 'consciousness'? Because it cognizes, thus it is
                                        called consciousness. What does it cognize? It cognizes what is sour,
                                        bitter, pungent, sweet, alkaline, non-alkaline, salty, & unsalty. Because it
                                        cognizes, it is called consciousness."

                                        > commnent:
                                        > Seems like the sutta is implying the primary function
                                        > of vinnana is to differentiate the 3 types of feeling,
                                        > rather than just a bare awareness of the 6 types of
                                        > external media coming into contact with the 6 internal
                                        > sense organs.
                                        >

                                        Somehow I get the impression that the meaning of vi~n~naa.na seems to be
                                        closer to what it literally means: vi + j~naa = knowing apart (or
                                        apart-knowledge).

                                        Lars
                                      • Lars Siebold
                                        ... I just saw how Michael Olds (www.buddhadust.org) takes vi~n~nana as double-knowing-knowing so he takes it as vi + j~naa + ~naa (or j~naa). Would you
                                        Message 19 of 28 , Mar 28, 2003
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                                          > Somehow I get the impression that the meaning of vi~n~naa.na seems to
                                          > be closer to what it literally means: vi + j~naa = knowing apart (or
                                          > apart-knowledge).

                                          I just saw how Michael Olds (www.buddhadust.org) takes vi~n~nana as
                                          "double-knowing-knowing" so he takes it as vi + j~naa + ~naa (or j~naa).
                                          Would you think this to be possible?

                                          Lars
                                        • ������� ���������� ��������� (Dimitry A.
                                          Hi Lars, LS I just saw how Michael Olds (www.buddhadust.org) takes vi~n~nana as LS double-knowing-knowing so he takes it as vi + j~naa + ~naa (or j~naa).
                                          Message 20 of 28 , Mar 28, 2003
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                                            Hi Lars,

                                            LS> I just saw how Michael Olds (www.buddhadust.org) takes vi~n~nana as
                                            LS> "double-knowing-knowing" so he takes it as vi + j~naa + ~naa (or j~naa).
                                            LS> Would you think this to be possible?

                                            It's a good joke.

                                            Actually vi~n~nana is quite similar to Russian soznanie
                                            (consciousness). The Pali root 'jna' corresponds to 'zna'.

                                            The translation as 'consciousness' is consistent with the suttas
                                            recently mentioned.

                                            > There is also another definition in the Samyutta Nikaya (S XXII.79):
                                            > "And why do you call it 'consciousness'? Because it cognizes, thus it is
                                            > called consciousness. What does it cognize? It cognizes what is sour,
                                            > bitter, pungent, sweet, alkaline, non-alkaline, salty, & unsalty. Because it
                                            > cognizes, it is called consciousness."

                                            How would you otherwise describe in a simple words a concept of
                                            consciousness?

                                            Dimitry
                                          • Stefan Detrez
                                            ... Also gnosis in Greek and to KNOW are cognate with jna . Stefan _________________________________________________________________
                                            Message 21 of 28 , Mar 29, 2003
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                                              >Actually vi~n~nana is quite similar to Russian soznanie
                                              >(consciousness). The Pali root 'jna' corresponds to 'zna'.

                                              Also 'gnosis' in Greek and 'to KNOW' are cognate with 'jna'.

                                              Stefan


                                              _________________________________________________________________
                                            • Lars Siebold
                                              On Saturday, March 29, 2003 6:55 AM, Äìèòðèé Àëåêñååâè÷ Èâàõíåíêî (Dimitry ... Actually I have nothing against the translation as
                                              Message 22 of 28 , Mar 29, 2003
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                                                On Saturday, March 29, 2003 6:55 AM, Äìèòðèé Àëåêñååâè÷ Èâàõíåíêî (Dimitry
                                                A. Ivakhnenko) <koleso@...> wrote:
                                                >
                                                > How would you otherwise describe in a simple words a concept of
                                                > consciousness?
                                                >

                                                Actually I have nothing against the translation as conciousness. Maybe it's
                                                just that I'm not a native English speaker and some English words don't have
                                                very much meaning for me.

                                                Lars
                                              • Lars Siebold
                                                On Saturday, March 29, 2003 6:55 AM, Äìèòðèé Àëåêñååâè÷ Èâàõíåíêî (Dimitry ... What I was interested in is, not if the translation is
                                                Message 23 of 28 , Mar 29, 2003
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                                                  On Saturday, March 29, 2003 6:55 AM, Äìèòðèé Àëåêñååâè÷ Èâàõíåíêî (Dimitry
                                                  A. Ivakhnenko) <koleso@...> wrote:

                                                  > Hi Lars,
                                                  >
                                                  >> I just saw how Michael Olds (www.buddhadust.org) takes vi~n~nana as
                                                  >> "double-knowing-knowing" so he takes it as vi + j~naa + ~naa (or
                                                  >> j~naa). Would you think this to be possible?
                                                  >
                                                  > It's a good joke.
                                                  >

                                                  What I was interested in is, not if the translation is correct, but if there
                                                  would be any reason for the second "knowing" that he puts there.
                                                  I know his translations sometimes are a bit "loony" :-) But sometimes they
                                                  are also quite interesting. He actually has some fourty years of experience
                                                  in the Pali, so one should expect at least to find something of value here
                                                  and there.

                                                  As for the translation of vi~n~nana: I think the problem I have is, that in
                                                  German the word "Bewußtsein" (literaly "aware-being") means both
                                                  concoiusness and awareness, we have no seperate word. Therefore I would be
                                                  interested what exactly the difference in English is between conciousness
                                                  and awareness.

                                                  Lars
                                                • Äìèòðèé Àëåêñååâè÷ Èâ
                                                  Hi Lars, LS What I was interested in is, not if the translation is correct, but if there LS would be any reason for the second knowing that he puts there.
                                                  Message 24 of 28 , Mar 29, 2003
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                                                    Hi Lars,

                                                    LS> What I was interested in is, not if the translation is correct, but if there
                                                    LS> would be any reason for the second "knowing" that he puts there.
                                                    LS> I know his translations sometimes are a bit "loony" :-) But sometimes they
                                                    LS> are also quite interesting. He actually has some fourty years of experience
                                                    LS> in the Pali, so one should expect at least to find something of value here
                                                    LS> and there.

                                                    I understand his logic in this case. Indeed vi~n~nana is a
                                                    pre-knowing, since mano (intellect) is one of the sense doors it
                                                    opens up. Yet it also opens up other doors, without this double
                                                    function.

                                                    LS> As for the translation of vi~n~nana: I think the problem I have is, that in
                                                    LS> German the word "Bewußtsein" (literaly "aware-being") means both
                                                    LS> concoiusness and awareness, we have no seperate word. Therefore I would be
                                                    LS> interested what exactly the difference in English is between conciousness
                                                    LS> and awareness.

                                                    A good test is a Pali word savi~n~naa.naka - conscious (according to
                                                    PED the body when animated is called such).

                                                    Dimitry
                                                  • Lars Siebold
                                                    ... Another thing is that he often takes vi- to mean re- like vipassana re-view . And also some person I know takes vibhava as re-becoming . But in the
                                                    Message 25 of 28 , Mar 30, 2003
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                                                      >
                                                      > LS> What I was interested in is, not if the translation is correct, but if
                                                      > there
                                                      > LS> would be any reason for the second "knowing" that he puts there.
                                                      > LS> I know his translations sometimes are a bit "loony" :-) But sometimes
                                                      > they
                                                      > LS> are also quite interesting. He actually has some fourty years of
                                                      > experience
                                                      > LS> in the Pali, so one should expect at least to find something of value
                                                      > here
                                                      > LS> and there.
                                                      >
                                                      > I understand his logic in this case. Indeed vi~n~nana is a
                                                      > pre-knowing, since mano (intellect) is one of the sense doors it
                                                      > opens up. Yet it also opens up other doors, without this double
                                                      > function.
                                                      >

                                                      Another thing is that he often takes "vi-" to mean "re-" like vipassana
                                                      "re-view". And also some person I know takes vibhava as "re-becoming". But in the
                                                      PED I don't find "vi" ever meaning "re". How do they get to that?

                                                      Lars

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                                                    • ������� ���������� ��������� (Dimitry A.
                                                      Hi Lars, LS Another thing is that he often takes vi- to mean re- like vipassana LS re-view . And also some person I know takes vibhava as re-becoming .
                                                      Message 26 of 28 , Mar 30, 2003
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                                                        Hi Lars,

                                                        LS> Another thing is that he often takes "vi-" to mean "re-" like vipassana
                                                        LS> "re-view". And also some person I know takes vibhava as "re-becoming". But in the
                                                        LS> PED I don't find "vi" ever meaning "re". How do they get to that?

                                                        Only they know how they get to that.

                                                        One of the possible reasons is that English has few prefixes, and re-
                                                        is one of them.

                                                        In Russian there are lots of prefixes, so local people get into
                                                        another game - they replace prefixes on oversimplified one-to-one
                                                        basis, and some groundbreaking discoveries also occur.

                                                        Dimitry
                                                      • Lars Siebold
                                                        Hi Dimitry, ... But as far as I understand it, vi never has the meaning of again . Lars -- +++ GMX - Mail, Messaging & more http://www.gmx.net +++ Bitte
                                                        Message 27 of 28 , Mar 30, 2003
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                                                          Hi Dimitry,
                                                          >
                                                          > Only they know how they get to that.
                                                          >
                                                          > One of the possible reasons is that English has few prefixes, and re-
                                                          > is one of them.
                                                          >

                                                          But as far as I understand it, vi never has the meaning of "again".

                                                          Lars

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                                                        • ������� ���������� ��������� (Dimitry A.
                                                          Hi Lars, ... LS But as far as I understand it, vi never has the meaning of again . But if someone wants to translate prefix by prefix, there are few options
                                                          Message 28 of 28 , Mar 30, 2003
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                                                            Hi Lars,

                                                            >> One of the possible reasons is that English has few prefixes, and re-
                                                            >> is one of them.

                                                            LS> But as far as I understand it, vi never has the meaning of "again".

                                                            But if someone wants to translate prefix by prefix, there are few
                                                            options in English. There's of course 'over' and 'under', so we may
                                                            witness 'underdefilements' for upakkilesa and 'overknowing' for
                                                            vi~n~naa.na ;)

                                                            Dimitry
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