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Re: [Pali] A.K.Warders Pali exercises

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  • Paul O Cuana
    Hi Steve, The CSCD has references to the PTS edition. If I remember right, you can search roman(PTS) but only print by referencing the Burmese page numbers.
    Message 1 of 13 , Feb 3, 2003
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      Hi Steve,

      The CSCD has references to the PTS edition.
      If I remember right, you can search roman(PTS)
      but only print by referencing the Burmese page
      numbers.
      Good Luck!
      Paul O Cuana
      --- "bodhi2500 <Bodhi2500@...>"
      <Bodhi2500@...> wrote:
      > Hello
      > Does anyone know where/if a complete list of
      > answers to the
      > exercises in A.K.Warder's Intro to Pali can be
      > found?,without having
      > to buy the PTS Digha N. Or can the ref.'s to the PTS
      > Digha N. somehow
      > be looked up in either Maurice Walshe Tran.s or the
      > CSCD?
      >
      > Thanks
      > Steve
      >
      >


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    • John Kelly
      Hi Steve, I don t know of any complete list of answers to Warder. But we on the list that are interested can develop one. I am just about to start work on
      Message 2 of 13 , Feb 3, 2003
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        Hi Steve,

        I don't know of any complete list of answers to
        Warder. But we on the list that are interested can
        develop one. I am just about to start work on the
        Warder, having completed the Gair/Karunatillake, and
        as I work through each chapter, at my own slow pace, I
        intend to post my responses on this list for feedback.
        You can do the same, if interested, and we can
        develop a good set of answers between us.

        In the meantime, for checking your answers as you work
        through it, the first 5 or 6 chapters are in the back
        of Warder itself, and given online at AccessToInsight,
        as has already been pointed out.

        For the rest of the chapters, you can look up the Pali
        online at one of the several sites that have the
        canon, e.g., http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/index.html
        Within each sutta the PTS page reference is shown. I
        believe also that the Walshe English translation
        includes the PTS reference number at the top of each
        page. So it should be relatively straightforward to
        find the cross-references listed in the back of
        Warder.

        John

        --- "bodhi2500 <Bodhi2500@...>"
        <Bodhi2500@...> wrote:
        > Hello
        > Does anyone know where/if a complete list of
        > answers to the
        > exercises in A.K.Warder's Intro to Pali can be
        > found?,without having
        > to buy the PTS Digha N. Or can the ref.'s to the PTS
        > Digha N. somehow
        > be looked up in either Maurice Walshe Tran.s or the
        > CSCD?
        >
        > Thanks
        > Steve
        >
        >


        __________________________________________________
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        Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
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      • Ong Yong Peng <ypong001@yahoo.com>
        Dear Piya and friends, thanks to Piya, I have now uploaded both the pdf files here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Pali/files/palicentre/Piyac1.pdf
        Message 3 of 13 , Feb 3, 2003
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          Dear Piya and friends,

          thanks to Piya, I have now uploaded both the pdf files here:

          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Pali/files/palicentre/Piyac1.pdf
          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Pali/files/palicentre/Piyac2.pdf

          There is also now the Aranavibhanga Sutta in pdf format:

          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Pali/files/palicentre/m139aranavibhanga.
          pdf

          metta,
          Yong Peng

          --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Piya Tan wrote:
          > My suggestions here (piyac1.pdf & piyac2.pdf) have been formed from
          years of dogging the sweat for the shoulder of Pali and Buddhist
          Studies giants from both Europe and US (from their works that I
          manage to read). Many of them have been kind enough to communicate
          with me directly and I value their generous responses to my requests.
        • nina van gorkom
          op 03-02-2003 15:10 schreef Piya Tan op libris@singnet.com.sg: So it would be great if we get ... Dear Piya Tan, I shall go to this site, but meanwhile just a
          Message 4 of 13 , Feb 4, 2003
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            op 03-02-2003 15:10 schreef Piya Tan op libris@...:

            So it would be great if we get
            > more critiques and ideas from people.
            Dear Piya Tan,
            I shall go to this site, but meanwhile just a few remarks. I think guiding
            principles will influence one's translation. Some take as principle the
            litterary aspect and consider by style and idiom what is ancient and what is
            from later time. They are not inclined to the Abhidhamma nor to the
            commentaries. Whereas others find that in order to understand the meaning of
            the texts it is necessary to consider the whole Tipitaka: Vinaya, Suttanta
            and Abhidhamma, as well as the commentaries which are based on the Theravada
            tradition. Thus, a sutta could be considered in a much wider context and one
            could carefully compare different texts.
            An example is the Raahulovaada sutta. The Co mentions that for the
            understanding of what the Buddha said to Rahula about rupa, one should go to
            the Discourse on the Elephant's Footprint and the Vis. Khandha Niddesa. Here
            is explained what is included in rupakkhandha: all physical phenomena,
            inside the body or outside. This will influence one's transl of the word
            rupa: it is part of rupakkhandha. It could be translated as matter or
            materiality. Matter may be a loaded term, associated with science, and thus
            there are always many problems to find the right word. When rupa is
            translated as form I do not mind it, because I know the Pali term and its
            meaning. Actually, form could imply: what can be seen, thus, ruupaaramma.na,
            visible object. This is only one of the many rupas contained in
            rupakkhandha, but all rupas are implied in rupakkhandha. Now this is an
            example how translation can be influenced by one's ideas about the sources.
            Further on in the Sutta I shall come across another example, but I shall
            wait until we are there.
            Different translations can also influence one's practice: is jhana necessary
            to attain enlightenment or not? On dsg list we discussed the Susima sutta
            with different transl: one by AtI and one by Ven. Bodhi. Ven. Bodhi gave
            notes of the commentary which made it clear that enlightenment can be
            attained without first cultivating jhana, whereas ATI, Ven. Thanissaro
            added a personal note that jhana is necessary. Hereby I do not imply that
            one should be guided by only one sutta. We see that inclinations to
            different kinds of practice influences people's translations.
            When people read the Satipatthana sutta or the Anapanasati sutta with or
            without the commentaries, this will also make a great difference: they may
            also reach diverse conclusions as to the practice. This certainly will
            influence their translations.
            Here are just some random thoughts I have,
            Nina.
          • Piya Tan
            Dear Nina, The Abhidhamma and Commentaries in the right hands are great teaching aids. They certainly clarify many difficult points in the Suttas. As you might
            Message 5 of 13 , Feb 4, 2003
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              Dear Nina,

              The Abhidhamma and Commentaries in the right hands are great teaching aids.
              They certainly clarify many difficult points in the Suttas. As you might
              notice from my Sutta translation notes, I often refer to them as and when
              necessary. I am not an expert in Abhidhamma and admire those who have an
              unconditional love for them. Having said that, I must add that I am quite
              contented to study the Suttas, resorting to other extra-Sutta texts only as
              a last resort.

              Might I compare Sutta study itself to the academic Humanities and the
              Abhidhamma to the Pure Sciences, in which case I am a Humanities student. Of
              course, I would consult the Pure Science professor or student as I have an
              interest in the subject, too. Moreover, an interdisciplinary approach helps.
              As you say, it is a matter in personal inclination and also, I might add,
              the audience one is working for.

              It would be really great if an Abhidhamma scholar who is also adept with the
              Commentaries (discounting their cultural statements), could do a translation
              of the Suttas suitable for the average reading public, and not for
              specialists who are already expert in some way (which would be like bringing
              robes to Thailand). In many ways, the work of Nyanamoli and Bodhi are very
              good examples of this combination of expertise.

              Whatever demerit we may find in their translation is, I think, because they
              have do work alone. It is difficult for authors and writers to see their own
              typos, omissions and errors in a work of this stature. Ideally, we have an
              international council of Pali scholars and translators, and English experts
              to translate the Suttas. Sadly, most Buddhists (myself included) are often
              independent zealots with our own grand vision of what Buddhism is and is
              not, should be and should not. But we make our little contributions, or at
              least feel we do, and make ourselves happy in this life and as a palliative
              against a weird world.

              The Pali Yahoo Group, happily, allows us to get out of our tight visionary
              skins and share our wisdom and ignorance with others. I hope we can each
              show greater goodwill and generosity, for only with these qualities, can
              this spiritual work be successful: as a common concerted effort. I am
              delighted that people like John Kelly see the merit of the trilinear
              translation, and Frank Kuan, providing delightful critique of our work.
              Above all, Yong Peng, a personal friend, who provides us with this platform,
              has done a most admirable job.

              This is where you come in, Nina (if I do not sound too bold). Your expertise
              of Abhidhamma (I always hear the intonation of "kusala dhamma, akusala
              dhamma" whenever your name is mentioned). I'm sure we welcome relevant notes
              (Abhidhamma, Commentaries, etc) that would enhance the clarity of the
              translation.

              We are all experts in our own right, but we need the expertise of others to
              see our own greater unseen expertise. If we live by our own light, we cast a
              distinct dark shadow: with the lights of others, we are lightened all
              around. Yet we need our own eyes to see.

              The next important point I would like to raise is that the translated texts,
              no matter how elaborate and how good, are still what they are: texts. Dead
              words pointing to a living spirit. They are just guidebooks and signposts;
              menus for a great cuisine. There is still a vital need for some connection
              with a living spiritual teacher, even a tenuous one. I'm not talking about
              gaining credentials through empowerments or having credit-card teachers, but
              spiritual resources we have in our lives when we have spiritual questions.

              The Garava Sutta (also called Uruvela Sutta II) reveals a very touching
              aspect of the Buddha's "personality". While hesitating to teach his newly
              found Dharma, the Buddha reflected thus:

              "One dwells in suffering if one is without reverence and deference. Now what
              ascetic or brahmin can I honour and respect and dwell in dependence on?"

              Not finding anyone better than a Buddha, he thought:

              "Let me then honour and respect and dwell in dependence on this very Dharma
              to which I have fully awakened."
              (S 1:139 = A 2:20)

              The great difference between a guru and the Buddha is that the former points
              to himself while the Buddha points to the way. Let us be like the Buddha;
              for there are too many gurus in our world already.

              One of the great beauty of studying the Suttas is that they raise spiritual
              questions in us. Such spiritual questions goad me to go on questioning
              myself: indeed life itself is a series of questions, the final answer coming
              with enlightenment. Before that we only "think" we know the answers (with or
              without Suttas, Abhidhamma, and Commentaries). Problems usually come from
              those who think they have the "final answers" without themselves embodying
              those answers, thus telling others that they do not need to find the answers
              for themselves.

              Why do I translate the Suttas? I take it like good public relations: to
              advertise the amazing beauty of the Buddha Dharma. I don't think anyone
              would be enlightened reading even the whole Tripitaka in Pali or any
              language (or even translating): it might even be ego-boosting if done with
              the wrong idea. But when the Dharma is beautifully presented, it might
              motivate people to go on to understand practise the Precepts more seriously,
              to go on to cultivate their minds or meditate more healthily, and to grow in
              wisdom, and to be spiritually free. Above all, I translate because I really
              enjoy doing it although few here in Singapore share that joy. But I am
              convinced that if I work hard and well, there will be great posthumous joy
              (not for me, I mean). I find the meditation on impermanence and death a
              great motivator.

              I have two lovely young sons (6 & 7) who enjoy the good things children
              their age generally enjoy. I almost never on my own initiative tell them
              about Buddhism. I do not want them to be conditioned or statistical
              Buddhists. By now they know what I am doing, and they are such curious
              beings. Their questions are coming in, and as they come in I gently answer
              them, rarely elaborately. My main teaching for them is to always ask three
              questions: "Why, why, why?" and they have been doing so ad nauseam (actually
              on their own, as I have been before them). I remember Ajahn Brahm once
              saying in his public talk: if you do not want your children to be converted
              by the Christian evangelists, teach them to ask why why why!

              I have a feeling Frank Kuan might have some salty remarks over my words,
              words, words, here. And that's what builds a friendship: open communication.

              Nina, I can sense the wonderful care about which you write, and you have
              given us great contributions from your store of Abhidhamma and Atthakatha
              expertise, despite your uncharacteristic self-effacement which you must have
              picked up in Thailand.

              We await and welcome your contributions and delight in your presence here.

              Sukhi.

              P.
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "nina van gorkom" <nilo@...>
              To: <Pali@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2003 2:14 AM
              Subject: Re: [Pali] Pali Conventions


              > op 03-02-2003 15:10 schreef Piya Tan op libris@...:
              >
              > So it would be great if we get
              > > more critiques and ideas from people.
              > Dear Piya Tan,
              > I shall go to this site, but meanwhile just a few remarks. I think guiding
              > principles will influence one's translation. Some take as principle the
              > litterary aspect and consider by style and idiom what is ancient and what
              is
              > from later time. They are not inclined to the Abhidhamma nor to the
              > commentaries. Whereas others find that in order to understand the meaning
              of
              > the texts it is necessary to consider the whole Tipitaka: Vinaya, Suttanta
              > and Abhidhamma, as well as the commentaries which are based on the
              Theravada
              > tradition. Thus, a sutta could be considered in a much wider context and
              one
              > could carefully compare different texts.
              > An example is the Raahulovaada sutta. The Co mentions that for the
              > understanding of what the Buddha said to Rahula about rupa, one should go
              to
              > the Discourse on the Elephant's Footprint and the Vis. Khandha Niddesa.
              Here
              > is explained what is included in rupakkhandha: all physical phenomena,
              > inside the body or outside. This will influence one's transl of the word
              > rupa: it is part of rupakkhandha. It could be translated as matter or
              > materiality. Matter may be a loaded term, associated with science, and
              thus
              > there are always many problems to find the right word. When rupa is
              > translated as form I do not mind it, because I know the Pali term and its
              > meaning. Actually, form could imply: what can be seen, thus,
              ruupaaramma.na,
              > visible object. This is only one of the many rupas contained in
              > rupakkhandha, but all rupas are implied in rupakkhandha. Now this is an
              > example how translation can be influenced by one's ideas about the
              sources.
              > Further on in the Sutta I shall come across another example, but I shall
              > wait until we are there.
              > Different translations can also influence one's practice: is jhana
              necessary
              > to attain enlightenment or not? On dsg list we discussed the Susima sutta
              > with different transl: one by AtI and one by Ven. Bodhi. Ven. Bodhi gave
              > notes of the commentary which made it clear that enlightenment can be
              > attained without first cultivating jhana, whereas ATI, Ven. Thanissaro
              > added a personal note that jhana is necessary. Hereby I do not imply that
              > one should be guided by only one sutta. We see that inclinations to
              > different kinds of practice influences people's translations.
              > When people read the Satipatthana sutta or the Anapanasati sutta with or
              > without the commentaries, this will also make a great difference: they may
              > also reach diverse conclusions as to the practice. This certainly will
              > influence their translations.
              > Here are just some random thoughts I have,
              > Nina.
              >
              >
              > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
              > Yahoo! Groups members can set their delivery options to daily digest or
              web only.
              > [Homepage] http://www.tipitaka.net
              > [Send Message] pali@yahoogroups.com
              > [Mailing List] http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pali
              > [Discussion] http://tipitaka.suddenlaunch.com
              >
              > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
              >
              >
              >
            • nina van gorkom
              Dear Piya Tan, I was really touched by your sympathetic letter and your kind words of encouragement. I appreciate it so much to hear your personal views,
              Message 6 of 13 , Feb 6, 2003
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                Dear Piya Tan,
                I was really touched by your sympathetic letter and your kind words of
                encouragement. I appreciate it so much to hear your personal views,
                expressed with great sincerity, on your own work and on the aim of
                translation work. You gave me many thoughts for reflection. Thank you very
                much.
                I felt piiti and pamoda when reading your text of the Garava sutta, the
                Buddha paying respect to the Dhamma he had realized. He proclaimed that even
                he, himself, could not cause anybody to attain enlightenment and become
                liberated from dukkha. The Dhamma is our teacher, it teaches us to develop
                our own understanding. It helps us to find our own answers. No need to
                think, this person says... the scriptures state... Of course, I am not
                denying the immense help of the Tipitaka.
                Elaborating somewhat on your allegory: the humanities student and the pure
                science student. Very gradually the humanities student comes to see that
                what he took for somewhat dry, abstract science is much more than that: it
                has a great, direct impact on his daily life. It is in him, around him, it
                teaches him about himself and gives him counsel in his actions, speech and
                thoughts. Whatever text he reads, he finds that it is all there, but at
                first he could not see it.
                The meditation on impermanence and death, how helpful. I was delighted to
                read in the subcommentary to the satip.t.thaana sutta about four meditation
                subjects on all occasions: sabbatthikakamma.t.thaananti
                buddhaanussati mettaa mara.nassati asubhabhaavanaa ca.
                Concluding with self-effacement: I see the benefit of it, but it is a
                life-long process, and longer than than that, so long as we are putthujjana
                and thus full of kilesa. The Abhidhamma teaches me honesty, letting go of
                illusions about ourselves. It points out fine nuances of more subtle kilesa
                and their conditions, especially many details on conditions, to show us:
                anattaa. I think of the second book: the Vibha'nga containing many examples
                of defilements we all have, very daily. But of course we also find those in
                Suttanta and Vinaya.
                I enjoy it very much to concentrate on Pali texts here, the reading and
                translating helps me to get to the deep meaning. Writing it out is even
                better than just reading. At the same time, when I get very engrossed I have
                to remind myself of the goal : to understand the reality at this moment.
                What is the use if we do not understand citta now? In the Commentaries I
                always come across things that surprise me, that cannot but have a great
                impact upon me.
                By the way, I do not want to miss the Day by Day, very restful before going
                to sleep, after sometimes difficult and overwhelming (in number) posts. I
                skipped always English Pali, but it is a good check. I put my hand on the
                screen to check.
                I always greatly respect my language teachers, they give me something
                precious. There are many kind and patient teachers here on this list.
                Therefore, I wish to express my great appreciation of all the good works
                done by you, Yong Peng, John and others.
                Anumodana,
                Nina.
                P.S. I tried to reach your files, but I have an IMac and this must be the
                trouble. Even adobe acrobat did not want to convert. One piece I got only
                had funny signs. Is it possible to give us on Email here on the list an
                extract of it? My computer may not react kindly to an attachment.



                op 05-02-2003 04:15 schreef Piya Tan op libris@...:


                > The Abhidhamma and Commentaries in the right hands are great teaching aids.
                > They certainly clarify many difficult points in the Suttas.
              • Piya Tan
                Dear Nina, I wonder if the problem your computer (an iMac) is facing has to do with the Pali fonts. If that is the case, you have to install the Times Norman
                Message 7 of 13 , Feb 6, 2003
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                  Dear Nina,

                  I wonder if the problem your computer (an iMac) is facing has to do with the
                  Pali fonts. If that is the case, you have to install the Times Norman fonts
                  in your C:\Windows\Fonts. Since you have difficulty regarding digital
                  attachments, I am not sending you this file: "Norman.sea" (which is the
                  Times Norman fonts for iMac).

                  It is available from the fonts sections of this great site by John Bullitt:

                  http://www.accesstoinsight.org/pali/

                  Nina, I'm not sure which files from www.dharma.per.sg you need. Please let
                  me know and I will email them to you.

                  Sukhi.

                  P.


                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: "nina van gorkom" <nilo@...>
                  To: <Pali@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Friday, February 07, 2003 2:14 AM
                  Subject: Re: [Pali] Pali Conventions


                  > Dear Piya Tan,
                  > I was really touched by your sympathetic letter and your kind words of
                  > encouragement. I appreciate it so much to hear your personal views,
                  > expressed with great sincerity, on your own work and on the aim of
                  > translation work. You gave me many thoughts for reflection. Thank you very
                  > much.
                  > I felt piiti and pamoda when reading your text of the Garava sutta, the
                  > Buddha paying respect to the Dhamma he had realized. He proclaimed that
                  even
                  > he, himself, could not cause anybody to attain enlightenment and become
                  > liberated from dukkha. The Dhamma is our teacher, it teaches us to develop
                  > our own understanding. It helps us to find our own answers. No need to
                  > think, this person says... the scriptures state... Of course, I am not
                  > denying the immense help of the Tipitaka.
                  > Elaborating somewhat on your allegory: the humanities student and the pure
                  > science student. Very gradually the humanities student comes to see that
                  > what he took for somewhat dry, abstract science is much more than that: it
                  > has a great, direct impact on his daily life. It is in him, around him, it
                  > teaches him about himself and gives him counsel in his actions, speech and
                  > thoughts. Whatever text he reads, he finds that it is all there, but at
                  > first he could not see it.
                  > The meditation on impermanence and death, how helpful. I was delighted to
                  > read in the subcommentary to the satip.t.thaana sutta about four
                  meditation
                  > subjects on all occasions: sabbatthikakamma.t.thaananti
                  > buddhaanussati mettaa mara.nassati asubhabhaavanaa ca.
                  > Concluding with self-effacement: I see the benefit of it, but it is a
                  > life-long process, and longer than than that, so long as we are
                  putthujjana
                  > and thus full of kilesa. The Abhidhamma teaches me honesty, letting go of
                  > illusions about ourselves. It points out fine nuances of more subtle
                  kilesa
                  > and their conditions, especially many details on conditions, to show us:
                  > anattaa. I think of the second book: the Vibha'nga containing many
                  examples
                  > of defilements we all have, very daily. But of course we also find those
                  in
                  > Suttanta and Vinaya.
                  > I enjoy it very much to concentrate on Pali texts here, the reading and
                  > translating helps me to get to the deep meaning. Writing it out is even
                  > better than just reading. At the same time, when I get very engrossed I
                  have
                  > to remind myself of the goal : to understand the reality at this moment.
                  > What is the use if we do not understand citta now? In the Commentaries I
                  > always come across things that surprise me, that cannot but have a great
                  > impact upon me.
                  > By the way, I do not want to miss the Day by Day, very restful before
                  going
                  > to sleep, after sometimes difficult and overwhelming (in number) posts. I
                  > skipped always English Pali, but it is a good check. I put my hand on the
                  > screen to check.
                  > I always greatly respect my language teachers, they give me something
                  > precious. There are many kind and patient teachers here on this list.
                  > Therefore, I wish to express my great appreciation of all the good works
                  > done by you, Yong Peng, John and others.
                  > Anumodana,
                  > Nina.
                  > P.S. I tried to reach your files, but I have an IMac and this must be the
                  > trouble. Even adobe acrobat did not want to convert. One piece I got only
                  > had funny signs. Is it possible to give us on Email here on the list an
                  > extract of it? My computer may not react kindly to an attachment.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > op 05-02-2003 04:15 schreef Piya Tan op libris@...:
                  >
                  >
                  > > The Abhidhamma and Commentaries in the right hands are great teaching
                  aids.
                  > > They certainly clarify many difficult points in the Suttas.
                  >
                  >
                  > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
                  > Yahoo! Groups members can set their delivery options to daily digest or
                  web only.
                  > [Homepage] http://www.tipitaka.net
                  > [Send Message] pali@yahoogroups.com
                  > [Mailing List] http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pali
                  > [Discussion] http://tipitaka.suddenlaunch.com
                  >
                  > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                  >
                  >
                  >
                • Ong Yong Peng <ypong001@yahoo.com>
                  Dear Nina, thanks for your kind words. You are always so gracious and elegant in your speech. As you are using an iMac, you will have difficulty reading files
                  Message 8 of 13 , Feb 6, 2003
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                    Dear Nina,

                    thanks for your kind words. You are always so gracious and elegant in
                    your speech.

                    As you are using an iMac, you will have difficulty reading files
                    created for use on a PC, such as Microsoft Word. However, there
                    shouldn't be any problem to read a pdf file with Adobe Acrobat
                    Reader. In fact, Adobe is one of the few software companies that
                    enter the industry targeting Mac users first, then PC users.

                    metta,
                    Yong Peng

                    --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote:
                    > P.S. I tried to reach your files, but I have an IMac and this must
                    be the trouble. Even adobe acrobat did not want to convert. One piece
                    I got only had funny signs. Is it possible to give us on Email here
                    on the list an extract of it? My computer may not react kindly to an
                    attachment.
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