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Pali Conventions

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  • Piya Tan
    Pali Friends, Attached are some Pali textual conventions I thought might help in a standardized text and translation. Please let me have your feedback for the
    Message 1 of 13 , Feb 2, 2003
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      Pali Friends,

      Attached are some Pali textual conventions I thought might help in a
      standardized text and translation.

      Please let me have your feedback for the benefit of everyone in raising the
      standard of our common contribution here.

      The success of Pali translation largely depends on our concerted efforts to
      produce readable texts. Above all, we should also try our best to exemplify
      the teachings of the texts themselves.

      Although I am splitting hairs over the conventions, I feel that spiritual
      clarity is more important than technical accuracy. This is where the calm
      and clear minds of practitioners (esp wise Sangha practitioners) are vital
      for our work.

      Sukhi.

      P.
      ----------



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • bodhi2500 <Bodhi2500@aol.com>
      Hello Does anyone know where/if a complete list of answers to the exercises in A.K.Warder s Intro to Pali can be found?,without having to buy the PTS Digha N.
      Message 2 of 13 , Feb 2, 2003
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        Hello
        Does anyone know where/if a complete list of answers to the
        exercises in A.K.Warder's Intro to Pali can be found?,without having
        to buy the PTS Digha N. Or can the ref.'s to the PTS Digha N. somehow
        be looked up in either Maurice Walshe Tran.s or the CSCD?

        Thanks
        Steve
      • Kumaara Bhikkhu
        Steve, You can try this: Partial answer key for Warder http://www.accesstoinsight.org/pali/answers.html metta, KB
        Message 3 of 13 , Feb 3, 2003
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          Steve,

          You can try this:

          Partial answer key for Warder
          http://www.accesstoinsight.org/pali/answers.html

          metta,
          KB

          At 02:03 PM 03-02-03, bodhi2500 <Bodhi2500@...> wrote:
          >Hello
          > Does anyone know where/if a complete list of answers to the
          >exercises in A.K.Warder's Intro to Pali can be found?,without having
          >to buy the PTS Digha N. Or can the ref.'s to the PTS Digha N. somehow
          >be looked up in either Maurice Walshe Tran.s or the CSCD?
          >
          >Thanks
          >Steve
        • Ong Yong Peng <ypong001@yahoo.com>
          Dear Piya and friends, I have uploaded the file and it s now available here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Pali/files/thepalicentre/Piyac2_030201.d oc metta,
          Message 4 of 13 , Feb 3, 2003
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            Dear Piya and friends,

            I have uploaded the file and it's now available here:
            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Pali/files/thepalicentre/Piyac2_030201.d
            oc

            metta,
            Yong Peng

            --- Piya Tan wrote:
            > Attached are some Pali textual conventions I thought might help in
            a standardized text and translation.
          • Piya Tan
            Dear Pali Friends, I know many of us have great ideas about how to edit and translate Pali. Random attempts only last as long as the author s vision, energy
            Message 5 of 13 , Feb 3, 2003
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              Dear Pali Friends,

              I know many of us have great ideas about how to edit and translate Pali.
              Random attempts only last as long as the author's vision, energy and
              lifetime. Certain great ideas might be lost if they are not shared. So I
              hope we can hear from others who have any suggestions for a translation of
              the Pali texts that would be useful for the student and masses.

              My suggestions here (piyac1.pdf & piyac2.pdf) have been formed from years
              of dogging the sweat for the shoulder of Pali and Buddhist Studies giants
              from both Europe and US (from their works that I manage to read). Many of
              them have been kind enough to communicate with me directly and I value
              their generous responses to my requests.

              Even then they are still seminal and fragmentary, useful only to me because
              of my lifelong interest in the Pali suttas. So it would be great if we get
              more critiques and ideas from people.

              Sukhi.

              P.
              ----------



              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Paul O Cuana
              Hi Steve, The CSCD has references to the PTS edition. If I remember right, you can search roman(PTS) but only print by referencing the Burmese page numbers.
              Message 6 of 13 , Feb 3, 2003
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                Hi Steve,

                The CSCD has references to the PTS edition.
                If I remember right, you can search roman(PTS)
                but only print by referencing the Burmese page
                numbers.
                Good Luck!
                Paul O Cuana
                --- "bodhi2500 <Bodhi2500@...>"
                <Bodhi2500@...> wrote:
                > Hello
                > Does anyone know where/if a complete list of
                > answers to the
                > exercises in A.K.Warder's Intro to Pali can be
                > found?,without having
                > to buy the PTS Digha N. Or can the ref.'s to the PTS
                > Digha N. somehow
                > be looked up in either Maurice Walshe Tran.s or the
                > CSCD?
                >
                > Thanks
                > Steve
                >
                >


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              • John Kelly
                Hi Steve, I don t know of any complete list of answers to Warder. But we on the list that are interested can develop one. I am just about to start work on
                Message 7 of 13 , Feb 3, 2003
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                  Hi Steve,

                  I don't know of any complete list of answers to
                  Warder. But we on the list that are interested can
                  develop one. I am just about to start work on the
                  Warder, having completed the Gair/Karunatillake, and
                  as I work through each chapter, at my own slow pace, I
                  intend to post my responses on this list for feedback.
                  You can do the same, if interested, and we can
                  develop a good set of answers between us.

                  In the meantime, for checking your answers as you work
                  through it, the first 5 or 6 chapters are in the back
                  of Warder itself, and given online at AccessToInsight,
                  as has already been pointed out.

                  For the rest of the chapters, you can look up the Pali
                  online at one of the several sites that have the
                  canon, e.g., http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/index.html
                  Within each sutta the PTS page reference is shown. I
                  believe also that the Walshe English translation
                  includes the PTS reference number at the top of each
                  page. So it should be relatively straightforward to
                  find the cross-references listed in the back of
                  Warder.

                  John

                  --- "bodhi2500 <Bodhi2500@...>"
                  <Bodhi2500@...> wrote:
                  > Hello
                  > Does anyone know where/if a complete list of
                  > answers to the
                  > exercises in A.K.Warder's Intro to Pali can be
                  > found?,without having
                  > to buy the PTS Digha N. Or can the ref.'s to the PTS
                  > Digha N. somehow
                  > be looked up in either Maurice Walshe Tran.s or the
                  > CSCD?
                  >
                  > Thanks
                  > Steve
                  >
                  >


                  __________________________________________________
                  Do you Yahoo!?
                  Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
                  http://mailplus.yahoo.com
                • Ong Yong Peng <ypong001@yahoo.com>
                  Dear Piya and friends, thanks to Piya, I have now uploaded both the pdf files here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Pali/files/palicentre/Piyac1.pdf
                  Message 8 of 13 , Feb 3, 2003
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                    Dear Piya and friends,

                    thanks to Piya, I have now uploaded both the pdf files here:

                    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Pali/files/palicentre/Piyac1.pdf
                    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Pali/files/palicentre/Piyac2.pdf

                    There is also now the Aranavibhanga Sutta in pdf format:

                    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Pali/files/palicentre/m139aranavibhanga.
                    pdf

                    metta,
                    Yong Peng

                    --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Piya Tan wrote:
                    > My suggestions here (piyac1.pdf & piyac2.pdf) have been formed from
                    years of dogging the sweat for the shoulder of Pali and Buddhist
                    Studies giants from both Europe and US (from their works that I
                    manage to read). Many of them have been kind enough to communicate
                    with me directly and I value their generous responses to my requests.
                  • nina van gorkom
                    op 03-02-2003 15:10 schreef Piya Tan op libris@singnet.com.sg: So it would be great if we get ... Dear Piya Tan, I shall go to this site, but meanwhile just a
                    Message 9 of 13 , Feb 4, 2003
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                      op 03-02-2003 15:10 schreef Piya Tan op libris@...:

                      So it would be great if we get
                      > more critiques and ideas from people.
                      Dear Piya Tan,
                      I shall go to this site, but meanwhile just a few remarks. I think guiding
                      principles will influence one's translation. Some take as principle the
                      litterary aspect and consider by style and idiom what is ancient and what is
                      from later time. They are not inclined to the Abhidhamma nor to the
                      commentaries. Whereas others find that in order to understand the meaning of
                      the texts it is necessary to consider the whole Tipitaka: Vinaya, Suttanta
                      and Abhidhamma, as well as the commentaries which are based on the Theravada
                      tradition. Thus, a sutta could be considered in a much wider context and one
                      could carefully compare different texts.
                      An example is the Raahulovaada sutta. The Co mentions that for the
                      understanding of what the Buddha said to Rahula about rupa, one should go to
                      the Discourse on the Elephant's Footprint and the Vis. Khandha Niddesa. Here
                      is explained what is included in rupakkhandha: all physical phenomena,
                      inside the body or outside. This will influence one's transl of the word
                      rupa: it is part of rupakkhandha. It could be translated as matter or
                      materiality. Matter may be a loaded term, associated with science, and thus
                      there are always many problems to find the right word. When rupa is
                      translated as form I do not mind it, because I know the Pali term and its
                      meaning. Actually, form could imply: what can be seen, thus, ruupaaramma.na,
                      visible object. This is only one of the many rupas contained in
                      rupakkhandha, but all rupas are implied in rupakkhandha. Now this is an
                      example how translation can be influenced by one's ideas about the sources.
                      Further on in the Sutta I shall come across another example, but I shall
                      wait until we are there.
                      Different translations can also influence one's practice: is jhana necessary
                      to attain enlightenment or not? On dsg list we discussed the Susima sutta
                      with different transl: one by AtI and one by Ven. Bodhi. Ven. Bodhi gave
                      notes of the commentary which made it clear that enlightenment can be
                      attained without first cultivating jhana, whereas ATI, Ven. Thanissaro
                      added a personal note that jhana is necessary. Hereby I do not imply that
                      one should be guided by only one sutta. We see that inclinations to
                      different kinds of practice influences people's translations.
                      When people read the Satipatthana sutta or the Anapanasati sutta with or
                      without the commentaries, this will also make a great difference: they may
                      also reach diverse conclusions as to the practice. This certainly will
                      influence their translations.
                      Here are just some random thoughts I have,
                      Nina.
                    • Piya Tan
                      Dear Nina, The Abhidhamma and Commentaries in the right hands are great teaching aids. They certainly clarify many difficult points in the Suttas. As you might
                      Message 10 of 13 , Feb 4, 2003
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                        Dear Nina,

                        The Abhidhamma and Commentaries in the right hands are great teaching aids.
                        They certainly clarify many difficult points in the Suttas. As you might
                        notice from my Sutta translation notes, I often refer to them as and when
                        necessary. I am not an expert in Abhidhamma and admire those who have an
                        unconditional love for them. Having said that, I must add that I am quite
                        contented to study the Suttas, resorting to other extra-Sutta texts only as
                        a last resort.

                        Might I compare Sutta study itself to the academic Humanities and the
                        Abhidhamma to the Pure Sciences, in which case I am a Humanities student. Of
                        course, I would consult the Pure Science professor or student as I have an
                        interest in the subject, too. Moreover, an interdisciplinary approach helps.
                        As you say, it is a matter in personal inclination and also, I might add,
                        the audience one is working for.

                        It would be really great if an Abhidhamma scholar who is also adept with the
                        Commentaries (discounting their cultural statements), could do a translation
                        of the Suttas suitable for the average reading public, and not for
                        specialists who are already expert in some way (which would be like bringing
                        robes to Thailand). In many ways, the work of Nyanamoli and Bodhi are very
                        good examples of this combination of expertise.

                        Whatever demerit we may find in their translation is, I think, because they
                        have do work alone. It is difficult for authors and writers to see their own
                        typos, omissions and errors in a work of this stature. Ideally, we have an
                        international council of Pali scholars and translators, and English experts
                        to translate the Suttas. Sadly, most Buddhists (myself included) are often
                        independent zealots with our own grand vision of what Buddhism is and is
                        not, should be and should not. But we make our little contributions, or at
                        least feel we do, and make ourselves happy in this life and as a palliative
                        against a weird world.

                        The Pali Yahoo Group, happily, allows us to get out of our tight visionary
                        skins and share our wisdom and ignorance with others. I hope we can each
                        show greater goodwill and generosity, for only with these qualities, can
                        this spiritual work be successful: as a common concerted effort. I am
                        delighted that people like John Kelly see the merit of the trilinear
                        translation, and Frank Kuan, providing delightful critique of our work.
                        Above all, Yong Peng, a personal friend, who provides us with this platform,
                        has done a most admirable job.

                        This is where you come in, Nina (if I do not sound too bold). Your expertise
                        of Abhidhamma (I always hear the intonation of "kusala dhamma, akusala
                        dhamma" whenever your name is mentioned). I'm sure we welcome relevant notes
                        (Abhidhamma, Commentaries, etc) that would enhance the clarity of the
                        translation.

                        We are all experts in our own right, but we need the expertise of others to
                        see our own greater unseen expertise. If we live by our own light, we cast a
                        distinct dark shadow: with the lights of others, we are lightened all
                        around. Yet we need our own eyes to see.

                        The next important point I would like to raise is that the translated texts,
                        no matter how elaborate and how good, are still what they are: texts. Dead
                        words pointing to a living spirit. They are just guidebooks and signposts;
                        menus for a great cuisine. There is still a vital need for some connection
                        with a living spiritual teacher, even a tenuous one. I'm not talking about
                        gaining credentials through empowerments or having credit-card teachers, but
                        spiritual resources we have in our lives when we have spiritual questions.

                        The Garava Sutta (also called Uruvela Sutta II) reveals a very touching
                        aspect of the Buddha's "personality". While hesitating to teach his newly
                        found Dharma, the Buddha reflected thus:

                        "One dwells in suffering if one is without reverence and deference. Now what
                        ascetic or brahmin can I honour and respect and dwell in dependence on?"

                        Not finding anyone better than a Buddha, he thought:

                        "Let me then honour and respect and dwell in dependence on this very Dharma
                        to which I have fully awakened."
                        (S 1:139 = A 2:20)

                        The great difference between a guru and the Buddha is that the former points
                        to himself while the Buddha points to the way. Let us be like the Buddha;
                        for there are too many gurus in our world already.

                        One of the great beauty of studying the Suttas is that they raise spiritual
                        questions in us. Such spiritual questions goad me to go on questioning
                        myself: indeed life itself is a series of questions, the final answer coming
                        with enlightenment. Before that we only "think" we know the answers (with or
                        without Suttas, Abhidhamma, and Commentaries). Problems usually come from
                        those who think they have the "final answers" without themselves embodying
                        those answers, thus telling others that they do not need to find the answers
                        for themselves.

                        Why do I translate the Suttas? I take it like good public relations: to
                        advertise the amazing beauty of the Buddha Dharma. I don't think anyone
                        would be enlightened reading even the whole Tripitaka in Pali or any
                        language (or even translating): it might even be ego-boosting if done with
                        the wrong idea. But when the Dharma is beautifully presented, it might
                        motivate people to go on to understand practise the Precepts more seriously,
                        to go on to cultivate their minds or meditate more healthily, and to grow in
                        wisdom, and to be spiritually free. Above all, I translate because I really
                        enjoy doing it although few here in Singapore share that joy. But I am
                        convinced that if I work hard and well, there will be great posthumous joy
                        (not for me, I mean). I find the meditation on impermanence and death a
                        great motivator.

                        I have two lovely young sons (6 & 7) who enjoy the good things children
                        their age generally enjoy. I almost never on my own initiative tell them
                        about Buddhism. I do not want them to be conditioned or statistical
                        Buddhists. By now they know what I am doing, and they are such curious
                        beings. Their questions are coming in, and as they come in I gently answer
                        them, rarely elaborately. My main teaching for them is to always ask three
                        questions: "Why, why, why?" and they have been doing so ad nauseam (actually
                        on their own, as I have been before them). I remember Ajahn Brahm once
                        saying in his public talk: if you do not want your children to be converted
                        by the Christian evangelists, teach them to ask why why why!

                        I have a feeling Frank Kuan might have some salty remarks over my words,
                        words, words, here. And that's what builds a friendship: open communication.

                        Nina, I can sense the wonderful care about which you write, and you have
                        given us great contributions from your store of Abhidhamma and Atthakatha
                        expertise, despite your uncharacteristic self-effacement which you must have
                        picked up in Thailand.

                        We await and welcome your contributions and delight in your presence here.

                        Sukhi.

                        P.
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: "nina van gorkom" <nilo@...>
                        To: <Pali@yahoogroups.com>
                        Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2003 2:14 AM
                        Subject: Re: [Pali] Pali Conventions


                        > op 03-02-2003 15:10 schreef Piya Tan op libris@...:
                        >
                        > So it would be great if we get
                        > > more critiques and ideas from people.
                        > Dear Piya Tan,
                        > I shall go to this site, but meanwhile just a few remarks. I think guiding
                        > principles will influence one's translation. Some take as principle the
                        > litterary aspect and consider by style and idiom what is ancient and what
                        is
                        > from later time. They are not inclined to the Abhidhamma nor to the
                        > commentaries. Whereas others find that in order to understand the meaning
                        of
                        > the texts it is necessary to consider the whole Tipitaka: Vinaya, Suttanta
                        > and Abhidhamma, as well as the commentaries which are based on the
                        Theravada
                        > tradition. Thus, a sutta could be considered in a much wider context and
                        one
                        > could carefully compare different texts.
                        > An example is the Raahulovaada sutta. The Co mentions that for the
                        > understanding of what the Buddha said to Rahula about rupa, one should go
                        to
                        > the Discourse on the Elephant's Footprint and the Vis. Khandha Niddesa.
                        Here
                        > is explained what is included in rupakkhandha: all physical phenomena,
                        > inside the body or outside. This will influence one's transl of the word
                        > rupa: it is part of rupakkhandha. It could be translated as matter or
                        > materiality. Matter may be a loaded term, associated with science, and
                        thus
                        > there are always many problems to find the right word. When rupa is
                        > translated as form I do not mind it, because I know the Pali term and its
                        > meaning. Actually, form could imply: what can be seen, thus,
                        ruupaaramma.na,
                        > visible object. This is only one of the many rupas contained in
                        > rupakkhandha, but all rupas are implied in rupakkhandha. Now this is an
                        > example how translation can be influenced by one's ideas about the
                        sources.
                        > Further on in the Sutta I shall come across another example, but I shall
                        > wait until we are there.
                        > Different translations can also influence one's practice: is jhana
                        necessary
                        > to attain enlightenment or not? On dsg list we discussed the Susima sutta
                        > with different transl: one by AtI and one by Ven. Bodhi. Ven. Bodhi gave
                        > notes of the commentary which made it clear that enlightenment can be
                        > attained without first cultivating jhana, whereas ATI, Ven. Thanissaro
                        > added a personal note that jhana is necessary. Hereby I do not imply that
                        > one should be guided by only one sutta. We see that inclinations to
                        > different kinds of practice influences people's translations.
                        > When people read the Satipatthana sutta or the Anapanasati sutta with or
                        > without the commentaries, this will also make a great difference: they may
                        > also reach diverse conclusions as to the practice. This certainly will
                        > influence their translations.
                        > Here are just some random thoughts I have,
                        > Nina.
                        >
                        >
                        > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
                        > Yahoo! Groups members can set their delivery options to daily digest or
                        web only.
                        > [Homepage] http://www.tipitaka.net
                        > [Send Message] pali@yahoogroups.com
                        > [Mailing List] http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pali
                        > [Discussion] http://tipitaka.suddenlaunch.com
                        >
                        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                        >
                        >
                        >
                      • nina van gorkom
                        Dear Piya Tan, I was really touched by your sympathetic letter and your kind words of encouragement. I appreciate it so much to hear your personal views,
                        Message 11 of 13 , Feb 6, 2003
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                          Dear Piya Tan,
                          I was really touched by your sympathetic letter and your kind words of
                          encouragement. I appreciate it so much to hear your personal views,
                          expressed with great sincerity, on your own work and on the aim of
                          translation work. You gave me many thoughts for reflection. Thank you very
                          much.
                          I felt piiti and pamoda when reading your text of the Garava sutta, the
                          Buddha paying respect to the Dhamma he had realized. He proclaimed that even
                          he, himself, could not cause anybody to attain enlightenment and become
                          liberated from dukkha. The Dhamma is our teacher, it teaches us to develop
                          our own understanding. It helps us to find our own answers. No need to
                          think, this person says... the scriptures state... Of course, I am not
                          denying the immense help of the Tipitaka.
                          Elaborating somewhat on your allegory: the humanities student and the pure
                          science student. Very gradually the humanities student comes to see that
                          what he took for somewhat dry, abstract science is much more than that: it
                          has a great, direct impact on his daily life. It is in him, around him, it
                          teaches him about himself and gives him counsel in his actions, speech and
                          thoughts. Whatever text he reads, he finds that it is all there, but at
                          first he could not see it.
                          The meditation on impermanence and death, how helpful. I was delighted to
                          read in the subcommentary to the satip.t.thaana sutta about four meditation
                          subjects on all occasions: sabbatthikakamma.t.thaananti
                          buddhaanussati mettaa mara.nassati asubhabhaavanaa ca.
                          Concluding with self-effacement: I see the benefit of it, but it is a
                          life-long process, and longer than than that, so long as we are putthujjana
                          and thus full of kilesa. The Abhidhamma teaches me honesty, letting go of
                          illusions about ourselves. It points out fine nuances of more subtle kilesa
                          and their conditions, especially many details on conditions, to show us:
                          anattaa. I think of the second book: the Vibha'nga containing many examples
                          of defilements we all have, very daily. But of course we also find those in
                          Suttanta and Vinaya.
                          I enjoy it very much to concentrate on Pali texts here, the reading and
                          translating helps me to get to the deep meaning. Writing it out is even
                          better than just reading. At the same time, when I get very engrossed I have
                          to remind myself of the goal : to understand the reality at this moment.
                          What is the use if we do not understand citta now? In the Commentaries I
                          always come across things that surprise me, that cannot but have a great
                          impact upon me.
                          By the way, I do not want to miss the Day by Day, very restful before going
                          to sleep, after sometimes difficult and overwhelming (in number) posts. I
                          skipped always English Pali, but it is a good check. I put my hand on the
                          screen to check.
                          I always greatly respect my language teachers, they give me something
                          precious. There are many kind and patient teachers here on this list.
                          Therefore, I wish to express my great appreciation of all the good works
                          done by you, Yong Peng, John and others.
                          Anumodana,
                          Nina.
                          P.S. I tried to reach your files, but I have an IMac and this must be the
                          trouble. Even adobe acrobat did not want to convert. One piece I got only
                          had funny signs. Is it possible to give us on Email here on the list an
                          extract of it? My computer may not react kindly to an attachment.



                          op 05-02-2003 04:15 schreef Piya Tan op libris@...:


                          > The Abhidhamma and Commentaries in the right hands are great teaching aids.
                          > They certainly clarify many difficult points in the Suttas.
                        • Piya Tan
                          Dear Nina, I wonder if the problem your computer (an iMac) is facing has to do with the Pali fonts. If that is the case, you have to install the Times Norman
                          Message 12 of 13 , Feb 6, 2003
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                            Dear Nina,

                            I wonder if the problem your computer (an iMac) is facing has to do with the
                            Pali fonts. If that is the case, you have to install the Times Norman fonts
                            in your C:\Windows\Fonts. Since you have difficulty regarding digital
                            attachments, I am not sending you this file: "Norman.sea" (which is the
                            Times Norman fonts for iMac).

                            It is available from the fonts sections of this great site by John Bullitt:

                            http://www.accesstoinsight.org/pali/

                            Nina, I'm not sure which files from www.dharma.per.sg you need. Please let
                            me know and I will email them to you.

                            Sukhi.

                            P.


                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: "nina van gorkom" <nilo@...>
                            To: <Pali@yahoogroups.com>
                            Sent: Friday, February 07, 2003 2:14 AM
                            Subject: Re: [Pali] Pali Conventions


                            > Dear Piya Tan,
                            > I was really touched by your sympathetic letter and your kind words of
                            > encouragement. I appreciate it so much to hear your personal views,
                            > expressed with great sincerity, on your own work and on the aim of
                            > translation work. You gave me many thoughts for reflection. Thank you very
                            > much.
                            > I felt piiti and pamoda when reading your text of the Garava sutta, the
                            > Buddha paying respect to the Dhamma he had realized. He proclaimed that
                            even
                            > he, himself, could not cause anybody to attain enlightenment and become
                            > liberated from dukkha. The Dhamma is our teacher, it teaches us to develop
                            > our own understanding. It helps us to find our own answers. No need to
                            > think, this person says... the scriptures state... Of course, I am not
                            > denying the immense help of the Tipitaka.
                            > Elaborating somewhat on your allegory: the humanities student and the pure
                            > science student. Very gradually the humanities student comes to see that
                            > what he took for somewhat dry, abstract science is much more than that: it
                            > has a great, direct impact on his daily life. It is in him, around him, it
                            > teaches him about himself and gives him counsel in his actions, speech and
                            > thoughts. Whatever text he reads, he finds that it is all there, but at
                            > first he could not see it.
                            > The meditation on impermanence and death, how helpful. I was delighted to
                            > read in the subcommentary to the satip.t.thaana sutta about four
                            meditation
                            > subjects on all occasions: sabbatthikakamma.t.thaananti
                            > buddhaanussati mettaa mara.nassati asubhabhaavanaa ca.
                            > Concluding with self-effacement: I see the benefit of it, but it is a
                            > life-long process, and longer than than that, so long as we are
                            putthujjana
                            > and thus full of kilesa. The Abhidhamma teaches me honesty, letting go of
                            > illusions about ourselves. It points out fine nuances of more subtle
                            kilesa
                            > and their conditions, especially many details on conditions, to show us:
                            > anattaa. I think of the second book: the Vibha'nga containing many
                            examples
                            > of defilements we all have, very daily. But of course we also find those
                            in
                            > Suttanta and Vinaya.
                            > I enjoy it very much to concentrate on Pali texts here, the reading and
                            > translating helps me to get to the deep meaning. Writing it out is even
                            > better than just reading. At the same time, when I get very engrossed I
                            have
                            > to remind myself of the goal : to understand the reality at this moment.
                            > What is the use if we do not understand citta now? In the Commentaries I
                            > always come across things that surprise me, that cannot but have a great
                            > impact upon me.
                            > By the way, I do not want to miss the Day by Day, very restful before
                            going
                            > to sleep, after sometimes difficult and overwhelming (in number) posts. I
                            > skipped always English Pali, but it is a good check. I put my hand on the
                            > screen to check.
                            > I always greatly respect my language teachers, they give me something
                            > precious. There are many kind and patient teachers here on this list.
                            > Therefore, I wish to express my great appreciation of all the good works
                            > done by you, Yong Peng, John and others.
                            > Anumodana,
                            > Nina.
                            > P.S. I tried to reach your files, but I have an IMac and this must be the
                            > trouble. Even adobe acrobat did not want to convert. One piece I got only
                            > had funny signs. Is it possible to give us on Email here on the list an
                            > extract of it? My computer may not react kindly to an attachment.
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > op 05-02-2003 04:15 schreef Piya Tan op libris@...:
                            >
                            >
                            > > The Abhidhamma and Commentaries in the right hands are great teaching
                            aids.
                            > > They certainly clarify many difficult points in the Suttas.
                            >
                            >
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                            >
                            >
                          • Ong Yong Peng <ypong001@yahoo.com>
                            Dear Nina, thanks for your kind words. You are always so gracious and elegant in your speech. As you are using an iMac, you will have difficulty reading files
                            Message 13 of 13 , Feb 6, 2003
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Dear Nina,

                              thanks for your kind words. You are always so gracious and elegant in
                              your speech.

                              As you are using an iMac, you will have difficulty reading files
                              created for use on a PC, such as Microsoft Word. However, there
                              shouldn't be any problem to read a pdf file with Adobe Acrobat
                              Reader. In fact, Adobe is one of the few software companies that
                              enter the industry targeting Mac users first, then PC users.

                              metta,
                              Yong Peng

                              --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote:
                              > P.S. I tried to reach your files, but I have an IMac and this must
                              be the trouble. Even adobe acrobat did not want to convert. One piece
                              I got only had funny signs. Is it possible to give us on Email here
                              on the list an extract of it? My computer may not react kindly to an
                              attachment.
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