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Fwd: Interpretation of 'Tabba' in light of Padar ūpasiddhi

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  • Nina van Gorkom
    ... Begin doorgestuurd bericht: Van: Datum: 18 september 2013 18:12:39 GMT+02:00 Aan: Nina Gorkom
    Message 1 of 2 , Sep 19, 2013
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      Begin doorgestuurd bericht:

      Datum: 18 september 2013 18:12:39 GMT+02:00
      Aan: "Nina Gorkom" <vangorko@...>
      Onderwerp: Interpretation of 'Tabba' in light of Padarūpasiddhi

      ____________________________________________________________________
       
      Dear Bryan
       
      How are you?
       
      You wrote:
       
      “The PTS and Burmese commentary on this part both read
       
      tattha viññātabbanti viññāa nibbānasseta nāma
       
      viññātabba is the gerundive (future passive participle) of vijānāti meaning "to be understood, to be recognized, to be known." So the commentary seems to be saying, "Here viññāa means 'to be known.' This is a name for nibbāna."”
       
      According to you, ‘viññātabba’ is the gerundive, the future passive participle of vijānāti.
       
      Is that all? Where did you learn the above from?
       
      The last time I studied Pali grammar textbook written in English was in 1984 while I was doing my Pali honours course at the university in Canberra, Australia, which I finished with a distinction. After that, I withdrew from the Buddhist Studies.
       
      But, I continue Pali studies on my own, and moved on to studying and consulting Monastic Pali grammar texts, which include Kaccāyana, Padarūpasiddhi and Saddanīti as well as their Nissaya texts, which are the instruction manuals on those Pāli grammar texts. I also collect different versions of those instruction manuals in use at the Monastic universities in Myanmar.  Thus, I have 4 versions of Nissaya texts on Kaccāyana and 3 versions of Nissaya on Padarūpasiddhi.
       
      Apart from PTS Pāli-English Dictionary and Monier Williams’ Sanskrit-English Dictionary, I have amassed all the available Tipitaka Pāli-Myanmar Dictionaries, 20 volumes so far in print. I am waiting for the publication of further volumes. When I visit Myanmar early next year, I will make enquiry about the remaining volumes 21 and 22 as well as remaining portion of volume 14.
       
      Bryan, the reason I am mentioning my Pāli resources is your following question.
       
      “I'm not sure where Suan is getting vinnyāna in the sense of "it is known"? Perhaps he has another reading? The passive of vijānāti is viññāyati ("it is known") per the PED.”
       
      Yes, I have another reading in light of my Pāli resources that have enabled me to offer the following.
       
      viññātabbanti viññāa nibbānasseta nāma.”  
      “It is called ‘Knowable’ because it is known uniquely; it is the name of nibbāna.”
       
      So, you are taking issue my translation of ‘viññātabbam’ as ‘it is known’.
       
      My translation is in line with the Monastic Pāli grammar texts.
       
      Please read carefully the following quotes from Padarūpasiddhi, the commentary on Kaccāyana, the earliest Pāli grammar text.
       
      545: Bhāva kammesu tabbānīyā.
       
      Tattha- akammakehi dhātūhi, bhāve kiccā bhavanti te;
                   Sakammakehi kammatthe, araha sakkatthadīpakā.
      546: ņādayo te kālikā.
       
      Tikāle niyuttā tekālikā…
       
      547: Yathāgamamikāro.
       
      548: Te kiccā.
      Ye idha vuttā tabbānīyaņya teyya riccappaccayā, te kiccasañā hontīti veditabbā…
      Bhāve kiccappaccayantā napumsakā; kamme tiliňgā.
      ……
       
      Kammani abhipubbo, abhibhūyate, abhibhuyittha, abhibhūyissateti abhibhavitabbho kodho paņḍitena, abhibhavitabbhā taņhā; abhibhavitabbham dukkham; evam abhibhavanīyo, abhibhavanīyā, abhibhavanīyam; purisa kañā citta saddanayena netabbam; evam sabbattha.
       
      Bryan, after reading and understanding the above 4 suttas from Padarūpasiddhi, you will able to justify my translation of ‘viññātabbam’as ‘it is known’.
       
      If you have Chaţţha Saňgāyanā CD from Vipassanā Research Institute, you can consult Padarūpasiddhi in the Añña category.
       
      Please let me know your progress.
       
      With regards,
       
      Suan Lu Zaw
       
       

    • Bryan Levman
      Dear Suan, Thanks for your reply. ... you, ‘viññātabbaṃ’ is the gerundive, the future passive participle of ...   viññātabbam as future passive
      Message 2 of 2 , Sep 19, 2013
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        Dear Suan,



        Thanks for your reply.



        >According to you, ‘viññātabbaṃ’ is the gerundive, the future passive participle of
        >vijānāti. Is that all? Where did you learn the above from?
         
        viññātabbam as future passive participle of vijānāti is from the PED under vijānāti:

        "-- grd. viññātabba (to be understood)"

        It is also in Monier Williams under vijñātavya:

        "to be recognized or known or understood
        to be found out
        to be regarded or considered as
        to be inferred or conjectured with certainty"



        and in Geiger's Pāli Grammar, §199.





        >So, you are taking issue my translation of ‘viññātabbam’ as ‘it is known’. 



        No I was asking




        >“I'm not sure where Suan is getting vinnyānaṃ in the sense of "it is known"? Perhaps he
        >has another reading? The passive of vijānāti is viññāyati ("it is known") per the PED.”


        In you post you said


        >“Vinnyaatabbanti vinnyaanam nibbaanassetam naamam.”  
        >“It is called ‘Knowable’ because it is known uniquely; it is the name of nibbaana.”



        Where you translated vinnyānaṃ (instead of viññāṇaṃ) as "it is known uniquely."



        My question was where the reading vinnyānaṃ in the passive sense of "it is known" comes from - not viññātabbaṃ which does mean "it is to be known," (or possibly "knowable," as you have it above) as noted above - I translated it as "to be known" in my post, so I don't think we disagree on that. I do not see this answered in the commentary, where -tabba (or anīya) clearly seems to have the sense of "to be Verbed." Am I missing something? 


        To my mind viññāṇaṃ (Skt. vijñānaṃ, "the act of distinguishing or discerning , understanding , comprehending , recognizing , intelligence , knowledge") is a noun form from vijānāti with a kṛt suffix -ana- added and is therefore active not passive.

        Mettā,


        Bryan

         



        From: Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...>
        To: pali@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Thursday, September 19, 2013 8:32:40 AM
        Subject: [Pali] Fwd: Interpretation of 'Tabba' in light of Padarūpasiddhi

         


        Begin doorgestuurd bericht:

        Datum: 18 september 2013 18:12:39 GMT+02:00
        Aan: "Nina Gorkom" <vangorko@...>
        Onderwerp: Interpretation of 'Tabba' in light of Padarūpasiddhi

        ____________________________________________________________________
         
        Dear Bryan
         
        How are you?
         
        You wrote:
         
        “The PTS and Burmese commentary on this part both read
         
        tattha viññātabbanti viññāa nibbānasseta nāma
         
        viññātabba is the gerundive (future passive participle) of vijānāti meaning "to be understood, to be recognized, to be known." So the commentary seems to be saying, "Here viññāa means 'to be known.' This is a name for nibbāna."”
         
        According to you, ‘viññātabba’ is the gerundive, the future passive participle of vijānāti.
         
        Is that all? Where did you learn the above from?
         
        The last time I studied Pali grammar textbook written in English was in 1984 while I was doing my Pali honours course at the university in Canberra, Australia, which I finished with a distinction. After that, I withdrew from the Buddhist Studies.
         
        But, I continue Pali studies on my own, and moved on to studying and consulting Monastic Pali grammar texts, which include Kaccāyana, Padarūpasiddhi and Saddanīti as well as their Nissaya texts, which are the instruction manuals on those Pāli grammar texts. I also collect different versions of those instruction manuals in use at the Monastic universities in Myanmar.  Thus, I have 4 versions of Nissaya texts on Kaccāyana and 3 versions of Nissaya on Padarūpasiddhi.
         
        Apart from PTS Pāli-English Dictionary and Monier Williams’ Sanskrit-English Dictionary, I have amassed all the available Tipitaka Pāli-Myanmar Dictionaries, 20 volumes so far in print. I am waiting for the publication of further volumes. When I visit Myanmar early next year, I will make enquiry about the remaining volumes 21 and 22 as well as remaining portion of volume 14.
         
        Bryan, the reason I am mentioning my Pāli resources is your following question.
         
        “I'm not sure where Suan is getting vinnyāna in the sense of "it is known"? Perhaps he has another reading? The passive of vijānāti is viññāyati ("it is known") per the PED.”
         
        Yes, I have another reading in light of my Pāli resources that have enabled me to offer the following.
         
        viññātabbanti viññāa nibbānasseta nāma.”  
        “It is called ‘Knowable’ because it is known uniquely; it is the name of nibbāna.”
         
        So, you are taking issue my translation of ‘viññātabbam’ as ‘it is known’.
         
        My translation is in line with the Monastic Pāli grammar texts.
         
        Please read carefully the following quotes from Padarūpasiddhi, the commentary on Kaccāyana, the earliest Pāli grammar text.
         
        545: Bhāva kammesu tabbānīyā.
         
        Tattha- akammakehi dhātūhi, bhāve kiccā bhavanti te;
                     Sakammakehi kammatthe, araha sakkatthadīpakā.
        546: ņādayo te kālikā.
         
        Tikāle niyuttā tekālikā…
         
        547: Yathāgamamikāro.
         
        548: Te kiccā.
        Ye idha vuttā tabbānīyaņya teyya riccappaccayā, te kiccasañā hontīti veditabbā…
        Bhāve kiccappaccayantā napumsakā; kamme tiliňgā.
        ……
         
        Kammani abhipubbo, abhibhūyate, abhibhuyittha, abhibhūyissateti abhibhavitabbho kodho paņḍitena, abhibhavitabbhā taņhā; abhibhavitabbham dukkham; evam abhibhavanīyo, abhibhavanīyā, abhibhavanīyam; purisa kañā citta saddanayena netabbam; evam sabbattha.
         
        Bryan, after reading and understanding the above 4 suttas from Padarūpasiddhi, you will able to justify my translation of ‘viññātabbam’as ‘it is known’.
         
        If you have Chaţţha Saňgāyanā CD from Vipassanā Research Institute, you can consult Padarūpasiddhi in the Añña category.
         
        Please let me know your progress.
         
        With regards,
         
        Suan Lu Zaw
         
         



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