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Fwd: nibbaana and vi~n`naana.m

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  • Nina van Gorkom
    Dear Bryan, here is the post by suan, Abhidhammika. I find it really very good and clear. ... Nina. Dear Bryan, here is the post by suan, Abhidhammika. I find
    Message 1 of 5 , Sep 12, 2013
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      Dear Bryan, 
      here is the post by suan, Abhidhammika. I find it really very good and clear. 
      Begin doorgestuurd bericht:

      Datum: 11 september 2013 17:19:34 GMT+02:00
      Aan: "Nina van Gorkom" <vangorko@...>
      Onderwerp: RE: nibbaana and vi~n`naana.m

       
       

       
      The Pali term ‘vinnyaanam’ is formed from ‘vi’+ ‘nyaa’ + ‘yu’.
      As you know, ‘vi’ is an adverb suffix. ‘nyaa’ is a verb root called ‘dhaatu’ while ‘yu’ is a suffix to make a noun from a verb root.
       
      So, ‘vinnyaanam’ is a noun formed from a verb. It is not a participle.   
       
      The definition of ‘vinnyaanam’ is “aaramanam vijaanaatiiti vinnyaanam”.
      “It is called ‘consciousness’ because it knows a stimulus.”
       
      Thus, when ‘vinnyaanam’ is found in the context of knowing a stimulus, it should be translated as consciousness.
       
      However, when ‘vinnyaanam’ is found in the context of indicating ‘nibbaana’, it should be translated in the passive voice as done by the commentary on Kevatta Suttam in Siilakkhandhavagga Diighanikaaya Atthakathaa.
       
      “Vinnyaatabbanti vinnyaanam nibbaanassetam naamam.”  
      “It is called ‘Knowable’ because it is known uniquely; it is the name of nibbaana.”
       --------
      Nina. 

    • abhidhammika
      Dear Nina and Pali friends How are you? In my e-ma il, I wrote: The Pali term ‘vinnyaanam’ is formed from ‘vi’+ ‘nyaa’ + ‘yu’. As you know,
      Message 2 of 5 , Sep 13, 2013
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        Dear Nina and Pali friends

         

        How are you?

         

        In my e-mail, I wrote:

         

         

        The Pali term ‘vinnyaanam’ is formed from ‘vi’+ ‘nyaa’ + ‘yu’.

        As you know, ‘vi’ is an adverb suffix. ‘nyaa’ is a verb root called ‘dhaatu’ while ‘yu’ is a suffix to make a noun from a verb root.

        ____________________________________________________________

        In the above paragraph, I made a spelling mistake when I wrote… ‘vi’ is an adverb suffix’. I meant to write ‘prefix’ instead of ‘suffix’.

        So, please kindly read “… ‘vi’ is an adverb prefix.”

        ‘y’ is not a visible suffix, but it is a useful linguistic token that determines a visible suffix. In the case of the term ‘vinnyaanam’, the visible or audible suffix is ‘na’.

        With regards,

        Suan Lu Zaw

         

         



        --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, <pali@yahoogroups.com> wrote:


        Dear Bryan, 
        here is the post by suan, Abhidhammika. I find it really very good and clear. 
        Begin doorgestuurd bericht:

        Datum: 11 september 2013 17:19:34 GMT+02:00
        Aan: "Nina van Gorkom" <vangorko@...>
        Onderwerp: RE: nibbaana and vi~n`naana.m

         
         

         
        The Pali term ‘vinnyaanam’ is formed from ‘vi’+ ‘nyaa’ + ‘yu’.
        As you know, ‘vi’ is an adverb suffix. ‘nyaa’ is a verb root called ‘dhaatu’ while ‘yu’ is a suffix to make a noun from a verb root.
         
        So, ‘vinnyaanam’ is a noun formed from a verb. It is not a participle.   
         
        The definition of ‘vinnyaanam’ is “aaramanam vijaanaatiiti vinnyaanam”.
        “It is called ‘consciousness’ because it knows a stimulus.”
         
        Thus, when ‘vinnyaanam’ is found in the context of knowing a stimulus, it should be translated as consciousness.
         
        However, when ‘vinnyaanam’ is found in the context of indicating ‘nibbaana’, it should be translated in the passive voice as done by the commentary on Kevatta Suttam in Siilakkhandhavagga Diighanikaaya Atthakathaa.
         
        “Vinnyaatabbanti vinnyaanam nibbaanassetam naamam.”  
        “It is called ‘Knowable’ because it is known uniquely; it is the name of nibbaana.”
         --------
        Nina. 

      • Nina van Gorkom
        Dear Bryan, this is Suan s first post. He added some corrections. Nina. ... Dear Bryan, this is Suan s first post. He added some corrections. Nina. Begin
        Message 3 of 5 , Sep 14, 2013
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          Dear Bryan,
          this is Suan's first post. He added some corrections. 
          Nina. 

          Begin doorgestuurd bericht:

          Datum: 11 september 2013 17:19:34 GMT+02:00
          Aan: "Nina van Gorkom" <vangorko@...>
          Onderwerp: RE: nibbaana and vi~n`naana.m

          Dear Nina
           
          How are you? Glad to hear from you.
           
          The Pali term ‘vinnyaanam’ is formed from ‘vi’+ ‘nyaa’ + ‘yu’.
          As you know, ‘vi’ is an adverb suffix. ‘nyaa’ is a verb root called ‘dhaatu’ while ‘yu’ is a suffix to make a noun from a verb root.
           
          So, ‘vinnyaanam’ is a noun formed from a verb. It is not a participle.   
           
          The definition of ‘vinnyaanam’ is “aaramanam vijaanaatiiti vinnyaanam”.
          “It is called ‘consciousness’ because it knows a stimulus.”
           
          Thus, when ‘vinnyaanam’ is found in the context of knowing a stimulus, it should be translated as consciousness.
           
          However, when ‘vinnyaanam’ is found in the context of indicating ‘nibbaana’, it should be translated in the passive voice as done by the commentary on Kevatta Suttam in Siilakkhandhavagga Diighanikaaya Atthakathaa.
           
          “Vinnyaatabbanti vinnyaanam nibbaanassetam naamam.”  
          “It is called ‘Knowable’ because it is known uniquely; it is the name of nibbaana.”
           
          Nina, what do you think?
           
          I hope the above discussion answers your question. Or does it?
           
          With regards,
           
          Suan
          -----------

           
           
          -
        • Bryan Levman
          Dear Nina, Thanks for this. The PTS and Burmese commentary on this part both read tattha viññātabbanti viññāṇaṃ nibbānassetaṃ nāmaṃ
          Message 4 of 5 , Sep 15, 2013
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            Dear Nina,

            Thanks for this. The PTS and Burmese commentary on this part both read

            tattha viññātabbanti viññāṇaṃ nibbānassetaṃ nāmaṃ

            viññātabbaṃ is the gerundive (future passive participle) of vijānāti meaning "to be understood, to be recognized, to be known." So the commentary seems to be saying, "Here viññāṇaṃ means 'to be known.' This is a name for nibbāna." The ṭīkā reads

            Viññātabbanti visiṭṭhena ñātabbaṃ, ñāṇuttamena ariyamaggañāṇena paccakkhato jānitabbanti attho, tenāha ‘‘nibbānassetaṃ nāman’ti.

            "It is to be known" - it is to be known by a superior person; the meaning is that "It is to be known perseonally by the highest wisdom, by the wisdom of the noble path," thus he says "This is a name for nibbāna."

            I'm not sure where Suan is getting vinnyānaṃ in the sense of "it is known"? Perhaps he has another reading? The passive of vijānāti is
            viññāyati ("it is known") per the PED.

            Rhys Davids translates viññāṇaṃ here as "The intellect of Arahatship, the invisible, the endless, accessible from every side." (http://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/dob/dob-11tx.htm)

            Thanissaro Bhikkhu translates as "Consciousness without feature, without end, luminous all around." (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.11.0.than.html)

            Walshe translates as "Where consciousness is signless, boundless, all-luminous."

            It seems to be saying that where consciousness, which has the nature of perception and discrimination (<  Skt. vi + jñā, "the act of distinguishing or discerning, understanding, comprehending, recognizing," Monier Williams), ceases its normal function and becomes signless, etc., - that is nibbāna. This seems to be consistent with the commentary which is equating viññāṇaṃ with non-discriminative (anidassanaṃ, "with no attribute" per PED) knowing,


            Mettā, Bryan





            From: Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...>
            To: pali@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Saturday, September 14, 2013 10:29:10 AM
            Subject: [Pali] Fwd: nibbaana and vi~n`naana.m

             
            Dear Bryan,
            this is Suan's first post. He added some corrections. 
            Nina. 

            Begin doorgestuurd bericht:

            Datum: 11 september 2013 17:19:34 GMT+02:00
            Aan: "Nina van Gorkom" <vangorko@...>
            Onderwerp: RE: nibbaana and vi~n`naana.m

            Dear Nina
             
            How are you? Glad to hear from you.
             
            The Pali term ‘vinnyaanam’ is formed from ‘vi’+ ‘nyaa’ + ‘yu’.
            As you know, ‘vi’ is an adverb suffix. ‘nyaa’ is a verb root called ‘dhaatu’ while ‘yu’ is a suffix to make a noun from a verb root.
             
            So, ‘vinnyaanam’ is a noun formed from a verb. It is not a participle.   
             
            The definition of ‘vinnyaanam’ is “aaramanam vijaanaatiiti vinnyaanam”.
            “It is called ‘consciousness’ because it knows a stimulus.”
             
            Thus, when ‘vinnyaanam’ is found in the context of knowing a stimulus, it should be translated as consciousness.
             
            However, when ‘vinnyaanam’ is found in the context of indicating ‘nibbaana’, it should be translated in the passive voice as done by the commentary on Kevatta Suttam in Siilakkhandhavagga Diighanikaaya Atthakathaa.
             
            “Vinnyaatabbanti vinnyaanam nibbaanassetam naamam.”  
            “It is called ‘Knowable’ because it is known uniquely; it is the name of nibbaana.”
             
            Nina, what do you think?
             
            I hope the above discussion answers your question. Or does it?
             
            With regards,
             
            Suan
            -----------

             
             
            -


          • Nina van Gorkom
            Dear Bryan, ... N: The ending on tabba means: it should or it can be known. ... N: This reading makes it clear that vi~n~naa.na is not nibbaana. Vi~n~naa.na is
            Message 5 of 5 , Sep 16, 2013
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              Dear Bryan, 
              Op 15 sep 2013, om 15:53 heeft Bryan Levman het volgende geschreven:

              tattha viññātabbanti viññāṇaṃ nibbānassetaṃ nāmaṃ

              viññātabbaṃ is the gerundive (future passive participle) of vijānāti meaning "to be understood, to be recognized, to be known." So the commentary seems to be saying, "Here viññāṇaṃ means 'to be known.' This is a name for nibbāna." The ṭīkā reads

              Viññātabbanti visiṭṭhena ñātabbaṃ, ñāṇuttamena ariyamaggañāṇena paccakkhato jānitabbanti attho, tenāha ‘‘nibbānassetaṃ nāman’ti.

              "It is to be known" - it is to be known by a superior person; the meaning is that "It is to be known perseonally by the highest wisdom, by the wisdom of the noble path," thus he says "This is a name for nibbāna."

              I'm not sure where Suan is getting vinnyānaṃ in the sense of "it is known"? Perhaps he has another reading? The passive of vijānātiis 
              viññāyati ("it is known") per the PED.
              -------
              N: The ending on tabba means: it should or it can be known. 
              ---------
              Walshe translates as "Where consciousness is signless, boundless, all-luminous."

              It seems to be saying that where consciousness, which has the nature of perception and discrimination (<  Skt. vi + jñā, "the act of distinguishing or discerning, understanding, comprehending, recognizing," Monier Williams), ceases its normal function and becomes signless, etc., - that is nibbāna. This seems to be consistent with the commentary which is equating viññāṇaṃ with non-discriminative (anidassanaṃ, "with no attribute" per PED) knowing,
              -------

              N: This reading makes it clear that vi~n~naa.na is not nibbaana. Vi~n~naa.na is vi~n~naa.nakkhandha, thus, citta. It is lokuttara citta that is conditioned by the development of pa~n~naa to such degree that enlightenment can be attained and defdilements can be eradicated. Nibbaana is the unconditioned element, it is not citta, but it is an object that can be experienced by lokuttara citta. 
              It cannot be said that vi~n~naa.na, thus, citta, is signless, this is said of nibbaana. Citta is impermanent, dukkha and anattaa. Nibbaana is not impermanent, it does not arise and fall away, and it is not dukkha, it is the end to dukkha. 

              --------
              Nina. 

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